justadad1957
100 W
so is the only way to be emp proof an ebike is to have a brushed motor and a simple switched controll
emp proof ebike?
- Thread starter justadad1957
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bigmoose
1 MW
Store it inside a conductive enclosure or Faraday shield.
BTW, do you know something we don't?
BTW, do you know something we don't?
if nothing else, come dec 2012 which represents a galactic alignment my expectation is the earth could very well be kissed by massive solar ejecta.
or at least prepare for the possibility there's a solar storm a-brewin.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=224&p=2583
(the obligatory winky) :wink:
or at least prepare for the possibility there's a solar storm a-brewin.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=224&p=2583
(the obligatory winky) :wink:
neptronix said:
model them for us, might spark some interest.
being under a large body of water like a swimming pool is supposed to offer the best protection.
shorts & a hat aint gonna cut it.
justadad1957
100 W
so if i can make a faraday cage for a few items what would need to be
speed control
charger
would hall sensors get fried
solar cells ?
btw i think i can make my own hat
speed control
charger
would hall sensors get fried
solar cells ?
btw i think i can make my own hat
Ricky_nz
10 kW
You could always go with the tried and true
and build a vacuum tube motor controller :lol:
and build a vacuum tube motor controller :lol:
liveforphysics
100 TW
Put a TVS on every delicate circuit. Faraday cage mesh the rest. Should give you a good chance of success.
Alan B
100 GW
liveforphysics said:
And bury a set of spare parts in the back yard.
bigmoose
1 MW
I have been thinking about this since my original post. The evolving control strategy is very good. TVS surge protection on all interfaces, Check! Burying spare parts and burying them in the backyard, Check, but only if buried deeply, or if shallow, covered with a salt layer to aid conductivity. Tin foil hat... and Tin foil pants/drawers... could use enhancements. Typical store bought Kaiser aluminum foil is not sufficient for such a critical use.
One should consider our Special Starke Aluminiumfolie, available for a limited time directly from us and certified to ISO 9001. This Special Starke Aluminiumfolie has been specifically engineered for the specific purpose of EMP protection and produced under the most stringent procedures in full compliance with ISO 9000/1/2. It is produced with a shiny side and a dull side. It is very, very important that the shiny side goes outwards, as it reflects the EMP better by a factor or 10^22! For a limited time we will sell you this Special Starke Aluminiumfolie in 12 inch wide by 1 meter rolls for 49.99 Swiss Francs, or three rolls for 99.99 Swiss Francs.
This is a limited time offer... likely good until my glass of Talimore Dew is consumed...
One should consider our Special Starke Aluminiumfolie, available for a limited time directly from us and certified to ISO 9001. This Special Starke Aluminiumfolie has been specifically engineered for the specific purpose of EMP protection and produced under the most stringent procedures in full compliance with ISO 9000/1/2. It is produced with a shiny side and a dull side. It is very, very important that the shiny side goes outwards, as it reflects the EMP better by a factor or 10^22! For a limited time we will sell you this Special Starke Aluminiumfolie in 12 inch wide by 1 meter rolls for 49.99 Swiss Francs, or three rolls for 99.99 Swiss Francs.
This is a limited time offer... likely good until my glass of Talimore Dew is consumed...
Alan B
100 GW
Wrap everything in this special foil before you bury it, of course.
And have another glass!
And have another glass!
dangerzone
100 W
justadad1957 said:
I have been discussing this issue of electric bicycle EMP protection at another forum and it amazes me that people are mocking such a rational thing. Now, in a case of a solar storm like the one in 2003. when only some electric grids went down in Canada and Sweden and flight across the poles were forbidden due to high solar storm activity, our electric bikes would not be affected. Even if it were a storm like the one in Canada in 1989. when half of the country was left without electricity, it might still not do much damage to the internal parts of an electric bike. Yet, if we would face something like the solar storm of 1859. then most of the bike controllers without protection would definitely be fried along with the electric grid worldwide, gaslines, pipelines, waterducts and everything of metal construction that would respond to such inductance.
The electronic components are smaller and smaller every day, which means they are more sensible to magnetic influence. And, in the case of an EMP most of the electronics would turn to shit if it is not protected. Now, there are simple ways of protection, one of them is a Faraday cage for the controller, and since the controller is in an aluminum case many people think that it would be enough protection. Wrong. The case should be grounded (and that is hardly feasible) and the controller should be turned off. So, if u r riding the bike it gets more complicated. Then, there were those who think that having wires in coaxial cable would insulate them from a magnetic pulse, which actually is true. Yet, the motor is connected by these wires to the controller, so even though you can protect the phase wires those in the motor might be a great antenna and a receiver.
The bikes that have a monocoque chassis like the Stealth would definitely have an advantage if the controller were in the frame, thus having double cases, one of the bike and the other would be the aluminum case of the controller. The bike is made of metal so if there is a chance to put the phase wires into the frame that could also help. Then, everyone should have a fuse which would cut off the lines in emergency, so the bike could be pedaled if the electronics get wasted, it would not go into constant regen mode, preventing the rider to continue by brute leg force. But the best thing would be to turn off the bike when you think there is risk of an EMP situation. After cutting the power off, take the bike to a building which is made of armed concrete or has some aluminum roof or some other sort of long metal parts: those are the ones that are most often struck by EMP.
So, if anyone comes with some nice and intelligent idea, that would be really appreciated.
Turning off the bike won't help it against EMP, only shielding it inside a conductive (to-earth, preferably) barrier.
Ricky_nz
10 kW
How can you say this? How many volts per meter are you expecting or occurred then? we need facts as to how much protection you require.dangerzone said:
What sort of rise times in voltage and currents are you expecting?
The biggest emp threat to an ebike is a nearby lightning strike.
A direct hit will not be protected from easily.
Look up lightening protection, basically similar task
If you want to make sure your bike is protected you need to conduct surge testing and esd discharge testing at a minimum.
inductances etc will make things hard to predict otherwise.
There is no requirement for the bike to be grounded or the Faraday cage to be grounded. do you see a ground cable on the space station?
Seriously if you are worried about a solar storm destroying your ebike you should probably invest in a gun and ammo because society will be a mess for a while after :lol:. Just imagine what all those teans will do without their cellphones :lol:
Lebowski
10 MW
You really want something metal like a bike close to your family jewels in the event of an EMP ?
Fine by me though
just more 'work' for me when we need to re-populate the earth 8)
Fine by me though
just more 'work' for me when we need to re-populate the earth 8)
Ricky_nz
10 kW
Those worried about random EMP events while they are out riding their bikes should invest in a faraday suit to protect their family jewels they are available off the shelf (Used for live line work).Lebowski said:You really want something metal like a bike close to your family jewels in the event of an EMP ?
Fine by me though
You just never know when you are going to get a surprise EMP event.
To be really certain you could have a custom one made out of silver which due to its lower resistance should provide even more protection.
Lebowski
10 MW
on a similar note, my girlfriend chickened out as testpilot when I told here my bike's engine runs on a very high
voltage and that it uses a circuit similar to what's used in a car to generate sparks
voltage and that it uses a circuit similar to what's used in a car to generate sparks
dangerzone
100 W
Ricky_nz said:
How can I say that? Well, I am not saying that, I am merely concurring with scientists and space engineers who have been analyzing those facts for the last few decades.
Now, you ask about volts but you are obviously not seeing the bigger picture, it is not the volts that are a problem cause you could easily touch high voltage if it were at a high frequency and low amps. The last solar storm in 2003 had currents up to 100A on the polar sides, and even if the voltages were low it would still be lethal to most of the electronic equipment at that wavelength. Some electric grids in Sweden were down, airplanes were not flying over there not only because of the EMP that would influence flight control, equipment and navigation instruments but also because there was a higher dosage of radioactivity which is dangerous to human beings or at least unhealthy. But let's get back to the question of EMP protection...
Some people mock the idea of EMP protection. Yet, the US Department of Defense does not. The European agencies do not too, they also take this problem very seriously, providing EMP protection to most of the electronic, radio, communication and navigation systems before the year 2013 when the sun will have another maximum, the expected 25th cycle. There are two satellites (if I remember correctly named Stereo A and B) which monitor solar activity and CMEs that would head our way cause from our point of view it is quite impossible to see an incoming CME. Thus, if (and only if) such an event occurs, all electronic without EMP protection and proper shielding would be erased, like when you have a magnetic recording and then just pass with a magnet over it, an experiment that anyone can verify in their own homes. And of course, an EMP is way more powerful than any magnet that you could possibly have in your home.
Radio amateurs know about the solar storms for years, because it influences the ionosphere and when you have some communication across long waves or even listen to a radio at long wavelength then the signal gets distorted and the instruments start freaking out. So, we know it is there, we know it is happening and how it is happening, the only problem we do not know is WHEN it will be happening and WILL it go our way, towards Earth. Cause many of the CME's that we can observe are blasted in some other direction, which lets us observe it then as a coronal discharge.
The only problem is what we can do, as civilians and bike owners to protect our bike the same way the military, ministries, politicians and rich people do. One of the oldest protection which exists for years is a Faraday cage and the other is MuMetal shielding, most of the coaxial cables for TV, satellite reception and radio have such protection. A coaxial cable has a conductor in the center, a dielectric insulator around it, then a copper mesh net that surrounds those two and then an isolation of thermally resistive plastic around it.
Now, if you would want to be sure that not only the cables are protected but even the electronics then you would have to make a similar protection for the controller. A good shielding would have to be similar, and since it has some electronics inside it would also require an additional layer of MuMetal shielding.
On the outside layer there should be some hard metal resistant to physical abuse, then some rubber insulation, then some aluminum foil, then some plastic insulation, then some thin copper mesh or netting and then some dielectric, then some mumetal layer and some dielectric and finally your favorite bicycle controller in the aluminum box. Such a shielding could save any controller from and EMP of either solar storm, meteorite explosion or nuclear blast origin. And it isn't that hard to make one, most of the homes have aluminum foil, plastic sheets, copper mesh could be bought, dielectric insulation could also be bought in electronic supply stores, the only thing hard to buy would be the sheets of MuMetal. There are some stores that sell them for audio equipment EMF noise protection but it is a bit expensive. Yet, the controller would be safe in such protection. The only problem after protecting the controller and phase wires would be the hub motor's hall sensors. And that's a weak point, cause they are in a hub that has some wheel turning around...
So, that's my 2 cents, maybe some other memebers could add some other good ideas for hall sensors...
Harold in CR
100 kW
If anyone is interested, I happen to have a 1000' reel of such a cable. It's 2 conductor, #16 stranded, with all that shielding. It's 7/16ths OD, and, pretty indestructable. YUP, sure do. It's used as a tow cable for a sensor in a rubber housing, to record warps in the magnetic field of the earth, caused by iron-steel objects.
TylerDurden
100 GW
Brushed motor, resistive controller, lead batteries.
grindz145
1 MW
TylerDurden said:
Why lead batteries? Just make sure you leave your lipo in a partially discharged state, of course then how would you charge them... I bet lipo cells themselves would take the emp though (depending on aplitude).
Otherwise I concurr
These are the kinds of threads that keep me coming back... 8)
TylerDurden
100 GW
I guess you could use an analog meter and keep a narrow DoD.grindz145 said:
As others have noted, a really big event could be so socially disruptive that having a functional ebike could attract desperados.
Everybody else will be fighting over inner-tubes and patch-kits. :lol:
