Back in the Saddle: Going to California: 2011

[Rassy]

Hey KF, How's it going? I read your above example, and while I agree solar panels aren't ready for prime time on an ebike, I think your calculation was wrong.

First, the panels will be producing even when the bike is parked. So for summer, if you picked 10 hours of optimal sun (just for this example), you would produce 2000 watts, which is 33 percent of your usage.

If I missed some point here, please let me know.

[Kingfish]

Hey KF, How's it going? I read your above example, and while I agree solar panels aren't ready for prime time on an ebike, I think your calculation was wrong.

First, the panels will be producing even when the bike is parked. So for summer, if you picked 10 hours of optimal sun (just for this example), you would produce 2000 watts, which is 33 percent of your usage.

If I missed some point here, please let me know.

Yes – you are correct; I forgot to multiply by Time.

The factors however are: Weight, Cost, and Opportunity. The amount of drag is also difficult to calculate: If we presume we have a conformal flexible coating – then likely it could be ignored. However – I don’t have ready access to that technology. The cost of a single 100W panel varies from $200 to about $1000. The weight also varies. The bottom-line though is that a conventional panel (being the cheapest) is rigid – and therefore would become a sail or increase drag unless oriented properly, like a hatch on a more rigid framework.

But this is all speculation: The idea is to keep weight and drag to a minimum. I think that with present technology – batteries (up to a point) are better sources of energy for their size & weight & cost ratio: When it’s dark, cloudy, rainy, or foggy, batteries are more dependable. Perhaps though solar would be something to consider for next year: The trailer covering and front faring seem like good real estate for that application.

~KF

[auraslip]

I just got off the phone with Marzocchi - I ordered two of the spacers to drop the fork down to 100mm or 80mm. They're $5 each + shipping

[hillzofvalp]

k, kingfish. Are you lugging a scale around? you ought to be keeping a weight journal while you're at it... that's a lot of pedaling

[Kingfish]

k, kingfish. Are you lugging a scale around? you ought to be keeping a weight journal while you're at it... that's a lot of pedaling

Read the backfill from this day: MAP: Saturday, August 20th, 2011 Florence-McMinnville.

I found a truck scale; me and bike & trailer weighed close to 450 lbs.

• Me: Figure at least 150 lbs. I might have gained weight on the trip cos of exercise, although my waste dropped about 2 inches
• Batteries: Qty-78 @ 1.27 lbs. each = ~100 lbs.
• eBike: Each hub = 14 lbs, and figured each wheel was close to 20 lbs total. Frame = ~30 lbs. Doodads and addons = 10 lbs. at least. Plus I was carrying around 4 quarts of water/Gatorade and some tools and food in the panniers. So I am guessing the eBike came in between 90-100 lbs, not counting 48 of the 78 total batteries.
• Trailer: Frame weighed 3.8 lbs nec'cid, but I added another 2 lb.s of foam, 10 lbs of custom metal, 10 lbs. of marine plywood, who knows how much the hitch and double-crown weigh, 30 batteries, HDPE faring + marine polyvinyl covering, trailer wheel, copper cable harness...
• Clothes in bags on the trailer
• Tools & spare parts in bags on the trailer

It all adds up...
~KF

[amberwolf]

if you picked 10 hours of optimal sun (just for this example), you would produce 2000 watts,

Just to be nitpicky, it would be 2000 Watt-*hours*.

[Alan B]

Great trip, and great story, KF. Sorry I was away, would have joined you in SF. You traversed a lot of familiar roads, we do parts of highway 88 several times a year, and have done highway 1 SF North as Crescent City, parts of it many times in the past.

Towing a trailer is something I haven't done on a bike, but have done a lot of with various vehicles. When the trailer weighs less than half the vehicle it is pretty trivial, but as trailer weight approaches vehicle weight the dynamics become quite complex and difficult to make unconditionally stable. Note that on really heavy trailers the pivot point sits directly over the rear axle. Of course towing with a two wheeled vehicle has even more complex issues.

Running two hubmotors is also very interesting, and something I've been contemplating for awhile. I would probably run them in torque mode so they would have a relative power (battery current) ratio. This can be done with the Cycle Analyst, or a specific module could be made to handle this as well as isolating and driving the signals to the two controllers.

Sorry you had so much trouble with the Samsung phone. One of the problems you've had is one I've been concerned about for some time, that is relying on a cellphone for navigation when coverage goes away which will be a major problem in some areas, and after a big earthquake. A dedicated GPS with wide area maps is still an important tool to have available. Cached maps might do it, but an unconnected phone can always be problematic.

Quality of cellphone cameras is improving but still doesn't begin to rival a good camera especially an SLR. The new large sensor mirrorless cameras are bringing near SLR quality to smaller and lighter cameras, and the GoPro and other small HD video cameras are just amazing. But the loss of half the pics is utterly tragic. My Motorola Droid on Verizon has not had any problem like that. And syncing photos with online services such as picasaweb would have likely solved the problem as they would have been backed up so quickly their loss might have been prevented as well the pics could have been available during your trip in a more timely fashion.

On the electric motorcycle for next year, would you be able to bring it inside each night, or would you have to figure out charging outdoors and risk security issues, etc?

Overall, Great Job!

[Kingfish]

Hi Alan B

Trailer Towing: Yes, the instability was possibly caused initially in this manner before I redistributed the weight back onto the bike; good point. However, the dh bike frame w/ rear suspension conspired with the trailer frame to flex, and nearly resonate. The resolution is to move away from Aluminum frames; although it’s a weight penalty ~ we get rigidity and superior durability in return.

Torque Mode w/ CA: Interesting; could you expand please?

Phone & Camera: Next time I am taking a dedicated proven reliable served-me-well-for-many-years digital camera. These smartphones are not going to hose me twice. And I am with you on cached maps; my big phat mistake. If an app doesn’t exist, then maybe I just need to d/l the image files in advance. If the phone can’t connect – I think the GPS would be fruitless as well. Again – not so much of a smartphone is it?

eMotocycle: Well, there is the challenge of how to assemble it; I barely have room to maneuver my eBike so I am not sure how this will go. Generally I think it could be modular: Test the pieces as components, then assemble on a fair day outside and store it under covered parking. It would look like a regular motorcycle to the untrained eye. I would have to park it close to my door and run an extension cord out to it: Might be prudent to use the Dryer outlet to access faster recharge levels. The plan though is to have an integrated charger so I am not fiddling about with unpacking/repacking and all that delicate wire business. I have started the AF study on the hub motor though, and recently posted it here.

Then there is the other unspoken task of setting a GBoWR; need to pick and choose what to chase down and how much will it cost. Perhaps now is the time I should begin prospecting for sponsors.

Thank you for the kind words; I can hardly wait for next year!

Cheers, KF (who also spells his first name A L A N)

[Alan B]

The GPS receiver should work regardless of cell coverage, but the application must handle the cacheing of the maps and properly handle the cellular connectivity. But you would expect a cacheing app to do that.

I would also note that if you were to get a Ham Radio license you could use APRS (Automatic Packet Reporting System) for reporting your location in real time to the web. This would not have perfect coverage either, but it would be a separate system from your cellphone and could be integrated into the bike (and it has more range than a cellphone signal). It could also be useful for locating a stolen bike. Getting a Ham License is not difficult and no longer requires knowledge of Morse Code. Let me know if you need further info on this. Internet searching for APRS yields a lot of good hits.

The Cycle Analyst has an input that can take the throttle signal, and a feedback loop that can be set for speed or battery current control. So you can make what amounts to a power proportional throttle with it. Essentially it will adjust the controller throttle input that it drives based on the battery current measured versus the throttle request. So if you set your front CA current for 20 amps max, and your rear CA for 30 amps max, then your throttle scales to 50 amps max and you get proportionally controlled power to each motor. Resetting the max current values takes a few button pushes in the advanced section of the CA menu so is readily field adjustable. This also allows acceptance of the Magura's larger input voltage range and gets rid of the dead spots at the ends (which a couple of resistors can also fix for regular use). I would think that this would be a great mode for your 2WD system.

Note that the Cycle Analyst manual does cover this feature, it is toward the back of the book.

It is a good name, and you spell it right. I had noticed as it is called out on some of the Lyen photos in the thread.

[Kingfish]

Ham Radio: That is very interesting; I’ll have to check into that.

CA Current Throttling: Definitely intrigued – although it will have to wait for the weekend; I don’t have time to work on my setup during the week as it is a working commuter vehicle. I will follow up though and let you know how it goes. The present HE-throttle suffers from dead spots too, and if it can fix that – then that would make me quite happy.

Cheers, KF

[deVries]

Stats and Trivia

• Duration: Departed on July 26th and returned on August 22nd; 28 days total
• Number of days riding: 20 – including the false start in Bend cos I traveled over 30 miles that day which is farther than the 19 miles between San Francisco and San Rafael.
• Total Distance: 2515.7 miles
• Shortest distance: 19 miles between San Francisco and San Rafael.
• Farthest single distance in one day: 186.6 miles between Pioneer and Fresno
• Farthest distance on a single charge: 165.3 miles between San Rafael and Fort Bragg
• Fastest Speed: 44.0 mph bombing down Hwy 88 towards Pioneer. Average Max-Speed was 40.4 mph!
• Average Speed: Fastest = 29.4 mph between Johnsville and Pioneer. Slowest = 23.8 mph between San Rafael and Fort Bragg. Overall = 26.2 mph.
• Average voltage: Starting = 63.3; Ending = 56.1
• Opportunity charges: Most per day tied at 2; Klamath Falls to Burney & Johnsville to Pioneer. I stopped for a total of 6 times. I did not stop once though after hitting Fresno because I figured out that if I dropped my top-speed by 3-4 mph that it would extend my pack the same amount as if I stopped and charged for an hour, and that’s how I managed to get up the coast during windy weather or climb the steep hills.
• Highest Pass climbed: Tied at > 8600 feet; Hwy 89 over Mount Lassen National Park going to Greenville & Hwy 88 over Kit Carson Pass going to Pioneer.
• Shortest Day: Technically it’s a toss depending on how it is judged. The shortest single complete ride was between Greenville and Johnsville – taking 3 hours to go 55 miles. However San Francisco to San Rafael was only 19 miles and took 1 hour 40 minutes – although I had been out riding the whole day.
• Longest day: About 13.5 hours between Pioneer and Fresno due to the flat tire.
• Departures: Earliest was 6 AM leaving Fort Bragg to Eureka, and the latest was 4:50 PM to head across the Golden Gate to San Rafael. The average departure (throwing out the two late afternoon times) was 8:15 AM.
• Arrivals: Earliest is tied between San Francisco at the Presidio and Centralia (2nd time) at 1:40 PM. Latest is tied with Centralia (1st time) and Bend at 8 PM. The average arrival was about 4:36 PM.
• Time in the Saddle: Depends how this is calculated. Shortest was between San Francisco and San Rafael at 1 hour even, and the longest was between San Rafael and Fort Bragg at nearly 7 hours. The average was about 5 hours.
• Scariest moment: Probably coming into Portland on US-30 the last 10 miles.
• Biggest arsehole: Too many to count when they use their vehicle as a weapon, but there was about one/day.
• Prettiest segment: Awe gosh ~ beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the best of it is just being in the saddle and on the road. However I can answer the ugliest easy enough: Where I had the flat tire! Got tired of looking at that right quick and just wanted to leave ASAP. The runner-up to that was where I dropped the bike in the powdery dirt on Panoche Road just before crossing that piddly little stream; that was no fun either.
• Cheapest motel: Motel 6 in Centralia at $43.95, followed by the Cinderella Motel in Hollister at $48.60, and in a close third – The Ferryman’s Inn again in Centralia for $49.44.
• Most Expensive motel: The Lighthouse Inn at Florence for $103.40, followed by the Fort Bragg Travelodge at $93.47, and in a close third, again Travelodge in Eureka for $87.99.
• Best and worst motel rooms: Cinderella Motel in Hollister had the best charm. Least impressive was a tie between the spendy Charm Motel in Burney, both Travelodge’s in Fort Bragg and Eureka, and the Lighthouse Inn at Florence – all were not worth the money and run down.
• Best road surface: US-101 when it was freeway, with a runner-up as the Avenue of the Giants for best 2-lane road (little to no traffic).
• Worst Road Surface: Tied between Tionesta Road – the first 15 miles heading up to Medicine Lake, Panoche Road between I-5 and Hwy 25, and the dirt road leading into my folk’s property. All have their really horrible spots. Climbing steep inclines covered in rubble with urban tires was just no fun at all.
• Best Bombing Runs: Tied between Medicine Lake, from the summit to about 5 miles before Hwy 89 junction, Mount Lassen from the summit to the junction with Hwy 36, and Hwy 88 about 10 miles west of Carson Spur Summit heading towards Pioneer. A runner-up could have been east of the summit of Mount Hood – although I was still a bit in fear of going too fast and trying to understand the bike and trailer – but Hwy 26 there does have two summits and there are some good drops between the first and Warm Springs.
• Best Weather: Between Johnsville and Pioneer; the whole day was marvelous!
• Worst Weather: Tied between leaving Redmond and coming back to Redmond. A runner-up would be the last 18 miles to Gold Beach, though up till then it was one of the finest days on the coast and I was making great time!
• Best Brewery: I thought the Park Chalet in San Francisco had the most memorable beer cos I wuz enjoying it with my ePals!
• Worst moment: The Flat Tire, bar none.
• Closest I came to running out of power: Tied at 54.3V left on the pack; coming into Fort Bragg and again two days later coming in to Gold beach after fighting the fierce buffeting with the sag dropping as low as 52.7. LVC was set to 50V so I had only a few minutes left – possibly ½ hour.

I will post a critical review of what went well and what didn’t probably tomorrow. Please feel free to ask questions.

Best, KF

Could you edit in your average wh/mile used? Maybe highs & lows max/min too? What was your average trailer weight?

Could you have gotten by with less battery capacity per day or did you need that capacity with minimal average spare capacity if needed?

What about weight? Could you have lightened your load & how to do it?

Were you satisfied with the distance traveled each day? Would rather travel faster or slower next time & by how much?

What about using a windshield farthing to streamline the wind around you & the bike for better efficiency? Did you check into what improvements you could expect? No bugs & dirt flying in the eyes & nose & mouth & no wind noise?

Thanks! Awesome trip & travel log...

[Kingfish]

deVries, allow me to address your questions in order

Wh/mi:
I’d have to calculate the Wh/mi because I was not able to accurately measure the RShunt values before the trip despite the instruction provided by a few members. Instead, I relied upon the Voltage of the Pack and my commuting experience to guide me as to the true nature of my power usage and reserve. To that end, I never once ran out of power – and that my friend was “By Design”. The best estimate for Wh/mi would have to come from charging:

The charger assembly pulled 900-1000 Watts per hour. It typically took 8 to 9 hours to recharge the pack; more if nearly drained, otherwise less. If I had to generalize the usage, let’s take 950W over 8.5 hours which equals 8075 Wh. The charging assembly is about 86% efficient, therefore the calculated power becomes 6944.5 Wh. Let’s divide by that figure by the farthest distance over one day on a single charge: 6944.5 / 165.3 = 42 Wh/mi. That’s pretty good for 2WD on a coastal road climbing hills, facing crosswinds, and pulling a trailer averaging 23.8 mph, which BTW took 11 hours to accomplish. I had many better days so we can probably use 42 Wh/mi as a worse-case figure.

Trailer weight:
I honestly do not have a good handle on what that was. The value did not change very much because the contents were pretty well static throughout the entire trip. We can however loosely calculate the minimum weight:

Frame = 3.8 lbs.
Dual-Crown Steerer & hardware = 3 lb.s (est)
Wheel: Hookworm, DH Tube filled with Slime, Rim = 10 lb.s (est)
Batteries = 1.27 * 30 = 38.1 lb.s
CrMo Tubular strut = 5 lb.s
Steering Dampener = 4 lb.s
Hitch et al = 3 lb.s
Toolboxes = 3 x 2 = 6 lb.s
Meanwell Charging Assembly = 6.6 lb.s
Bag of Spare Tubes = 9 lb.s (est)
Bag of Tools = 10 lb.s (est)
Bags of Clothes = 5 x 2 = 10 lb.s (est)
Trailer wood base, polyethylene sides,
marine vinyl covering, copper cabling,
hardware and anything else I missed...
figure 10 lb.s more
---------------------------------------------------
Estimate 118.5 lb.s.

Let’s work backwards from an observation: On August 20th I found an operational and yet unmanned Weigh Station in Oregon and I pulled myself with bike and trailer onto the scales. The resolution was crude, and it hovered for a moment at 400 lb.s before clicking over to 450 lb.s. I weighed about 150 lb.s, there were 48 batteries on the bike (not counting the trailer batteries) = 61 lb.s, and each motorized wheel weighs about 21 lb.s. That means the rest of my bike would have weighed 78.5 lb.s. Figure 35 lb.s is for bike frame, shocks, forks, brakes and yer left with 43.5 lb.s divvied up between farings, panniers, WATER & GATORADE & food & whatever – the numbers are within reason though on the plus side.

Battery Capacity:
With exception to intentionally short trips, each day was meticulously planned, reviewed, charted, reworked, revised, cross-checked, slept-on, slept-lost, tossed out, tossed back in, and sometimes – changed at the last minute. Essentially, I tried to maximize the available capacity of the pack for each challenge. Usually I could tell within the first hour or two if I was going to make the journey at the present pace. If I was using up too much power then I would either drop-speed or find a place to charge. The first half of the trip relied on opportunity-charging, although the second half did not: I discovered that if I dropped speed by 4-5 mph, I could get there without stopping just the same as if I stopped and charged for an hour – and then hightailed it. Better to take it slow and have an enjoyable time, rather than hunting for a place to charge and then sit around bored.

Weight:
I probably carried too much water after the flat tire incident, but that is not a bad thing. I probably carried too many tools, but then you never know if you’ll need them if you break down. Out of three spare tubes, I only used one (and had to patch that before using it). I used nearly every bit of clothing except my windbreaker. Perhaps it would have been possible to shave up to 20 lb.s but that in my mind wouldn’t have made a large difference. The frames and fairings were about as light as they could get, wheels & batteries & cable are required: What’s left are tools, clothes, and food, the latter of which I tried to be sure I had enough for one night if stranded. Didn’t bother with bringing a tent or cook stuff.

Satisfied:
There is nothing equal on this planet to the feeling of grand personal celebration from achievement! And every single day On The Road was a personal triumph that I shall never forget! No one day was better than any other: They were all remarkable, stressful, exhilarating, fan-fricken-tastic to the nth-degree fun, as were the people that I met along the way. I’d do it again, but not the same way…

Next time:
If I had a choice, if I had the bankroll, I’d do it again next summer though with a different ride, over a different route, with a different agenda, and I’d try to coax a pal or two to go with me. If wishes were horses that beggars could ride, I’d finish the Axial Flux motor design and build a 2WD eMotorcycle and ride coast to coast West to East and back again. But to do that I need garage space to build the bike, and my hidden urban bat cave doesn’t have that kind of room, so that adventure will have to wait until I can acquire shop-space, a true man-cave. In lieu of that – I’m not sure what is next on the agenda: I’ve completed my dream of biking down to California and back; maybe it’s time to go north or east or both: Redmond-Vancouver BC-Calgary-Glacier NP-Kalispell-Missoula-US12 West to Mt. Rainier-then back to Redmond ~ about 1800 miles on another epic dream ride into parts unknown.

But I have not answered your question of fast or slow: I would rather travel faster than slower. I would rather drive in the lane than in the margin. I don’t mind pedaling. But I do mind when jerks honk at me or try to drive me off the road. Beyond that - I love the genuine goodwill of honest people I meet, I get a kick out of breathing good air as my soul is replenished from drinking in the awe-inspiring vistas! Truly – these sorts of trips make it very difficult to go back to work when you have the world’s playground beneath your feet and sunshine to get from one horizon to the other, mountains notwithstanding.

‘Tis my pleasure to share, KF

[deVries]

What about using a windshield farthing to streamline the wind around you & the bike for better efficiency? Did you check into what improvements you could expect? No bugs & dirt flying in the eyes & nose & mouth & no wind noise?

I was posting an edit when you did your reply above. So, what do you think about the windshield farthing idea too? Would it blow you around though in crosswinds or 18 wheelers passing? hmmm.

KF, you're great posting so much detail & info... love it!

[Kingfish]

Q: Do you mean Fairing?
Farthing is a British coin valued one quarter of a penny

~KF

[deVries]

Q: Do you mean Fairing?
Farthing is a British coin valued one quarter of a penny

~KF

Maybe I was thinking... fairing... but you're going sooo far on a far.thing fart.ing farthing fairing.

[Kingfish]

Haha! No worries…

I did check into fairings (ES Thread). For the speed at which I preferred to travel, the feeling was that there is not a single bicycle windshield able to safely withstand wind resistance for the duration of the trip, nor could one hold up to the wind shear of a semi-truck blasting by.

However – that should not block the intrepid & creative DIY eBike enthusiast from exploring options. I found myself gravitating towards motor scooter and moped fairings until one day I decided to craft one for myself out of high-density polyethylene (HDPE) from my local supplier (Tap Plastics).

The front fairing increased my top speed by about 2-3 mph because the pointed nose sliced through headwind and rain and gusts like a hot knife through butter. The trailer design and resulting fairing was intentionally formed to create a teardrop shape where the greatest drag was at the rear, so even in high-speed, the trailer is self-correcting – or rather self-inhibiting sway and oscillation. It was a real treat to get the bike up to 44 mph (downhill) and still maintain feather-touch control.

I didn’t bother with a windscreen per se because I had a ¾ full face-shield motorcycle helmet that protected my eyes from debris and rocks. (I’ll never forget my first bug-hit, and glad it was the shield that took it and not my face).

My Triangle also had a fairing built around it to protect the batteries and cabling within. This too was covered in HDPE which is self-lubricating/soapy-like feel; perfect for two legs pumping pedals.

Aside from the inherited slip-streaming effects, the fairings were eye-catching in an attractive way, and that perhaps is the best safety feature of the entire bike!

Wind and 18-wheelers:
Truly, the only time I was scared enough to brown my shorts was on the first day when I had the steering dampener set too high: Great stability at low speed, but when a truck would blast on by – the whole bike wobbled as one and nearly whipped me off. After Portland, I turned all dampening off and let the bike move freely with the wind: This made the bike difficult to maneuver at low speed, yet extremely responsive and nimble at high speed! Same type of truck would pass, yet this time the whole bike moved fluidly: It was a learning experience to resist the temptation of holding the reigns too tightly, and instead allow the bike & trailer to move with the wind. I call it “feather-touch control” because you’re hanging on lightly and allowing the bike do what it was designed to do.

Again, the fairings allow for the bike to slice through the wind. Crosswinds were not a problem due to the mass of bike and rider; I’m twice as heavy as a normal MtB bike and thrice of a svelte racing bike. The only time I had serious issue with wind was crossing the Pistol River in 35+ mph wind that was gusting even higher: The worst wind conditions that I’ve ever been in on a bike. It took full-throttle and extreme patience to plow forward across the bridge: I did not like it one bit, though admittedly it was the only time I was grateful to have a heavy bike.

Wind & Noise:
I wanted to wear my headphones when riding, but then it would have been a sensory distraction. Even with the helmet on, I could still hear quite well. I depended on my hearing to alert me when a vehicle (or some other object) approached from the blindside. The helmet made kind of a whistling noise if I had the shield part-way up; at times this was necessary to reduce fogging. The fairings themselves were essentially quieting: Their function is to slice through air, therefore the turbulence will be lessened, though not completely eliminated.

When yer On The Road, you have lots of time to think. A quiet bike with lots of quiet moments surely facilitates freedom of thought… as well as peaceful solitude.
Ohmmmm, KF

[dnmun]

finally loaded the pictures of kingfish on my disk, more on my web album:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1131391565 ... 7814041602

[Kingfish]

Remind me to ditch all my tight-fitting clothes

Thanks Dennis for the shots. I think you've captured the mad-dash of field repair well

Imagine: I left Portland at Noon and arrived at Farfle's near Bend about 8 PM after 163 miles. Heading up Mount Hood, I was getting a bit thirsty and concerned about my charge, but that's when I spotted that little lemonade stand, and it all came together: Quick top off right then and there

About 15-20 miles east of the Mount Hood summit past the edge of edge of the forest, it was a treeless route all the way to Bend. Went through all my water that day, and was nearly dehydrated by the time I got to Madras. That drop into and the climb out of Warm Springs was something else! Heck of a day though; pretty country, wouldn't trade it for the world!

Brief stats for that day.

Again, thanks for sharing Dennis!
Cheers, KF

[dnmun]

i left out the crotch shot, he carried a pair of lipo ladies too

[mikebikerad]

If you are ever coming through Humboldt again on ebikes look me up

[pixelzpusher]

KIngfish, great trip. Loved reading it.

I have a question about your bike motors. The e-bikekit motors are rated at 48v. How are you able to put 60+ volts on the motors without frying them? I also have 48v hub motors on two of my e-bikes and only run them on 12s lipos. Did you just upgrade the speed controller and throw on 60v cells? The hub motors are able to hold up?

My hub motors did not come from e-bikekit.com.

As for your lipos, give haiyinstore.com a try. I put over 350 cycles on my batteries over a year now, 4 sets of 12s with 7000 miles logged commuting back and forth to work. I've tried hobbyking Turnigys and Haiyinstore lipos perform much better. They also have a Las Vegas warehouse so you get them in 3 days.

Would greatly appreciate an answer on the hub motor question. Thanks a bunch and happy riding.

[Kingfish]

@ mikebikerad
I loved Humboldt country! Will do my friend

@ pixelzpusher
The E-BikeKit motors are - to the best of my knowledge – Nine Continent (9C) that are simply rebranded; they are 2806-equivalents. For the most part they can take any reasonable voltage… it’s the current and overall power that we need to be concerned about. From my reading, I believe they can take 5000 watts for a short duration. During my operations they never saw more than 1550 watts each… that’s well into the safe zone and they can take that all day long.

From the basic power equation where P = I*V…
Higher voltage means less current, but as I said we’re gated by Power, we’re gated by resistance, and by load. 9C traditionally prints 48V and 500W on the side for perhaps legal reasons… as to why we can only guess.

The motor modifications that I made were to enable more power to flow to the motor, equal to the gauge of stranded wire used for windings from end-to-end, thereby reducing scant resistance and improving power-handling by 50% or more. After this cross-country event I applied a major upgrade in 2012 when the same motors rusted out.

Controllers were upgraded. Typical trace beefing, R12 mod, low ESR-Caps, power & phase wires. Later in the 2012 upgrade I eliminated all GND signal wires since GND is GND, and created a unified signal harness. The schematics and tricks are explained in this thread.

The battery pack is constructed of 5S1P 15/2C 5Ah Zippy FlightMax LiPo that I purchased from HobbyKing (20C here). They are presently arranged in 3-in-1 series to produce 15S approximately equal to 63V when hot off the charger. The Commuter Pack which is always affixed to the bike holds 18 batteries in a 15S6P (30Ah) configuration which is enough to take me about 50 Seattle miles; I don’t know what the distance would be for flat Kansas miles though. For this 2011 trek I had a total of 78 batteries in a 15S26P configuration spread over 4 battery bag-sets: Commuter (18), Saddlebags over the Commuter (12), Panniers (18 total), and Trailer (30 total).

I looked at haiyinstore.com and attempted to price out an equivalent – however the only one that came close was the 65C 5S1P battery for >3X the cost/unit I paid. Appreciate the link, however I don’t require high-C batteries; I’m not racing, and I have a plenty-large stash with an excellent battery harness to prevent sags under load. Though it’s nice to know there are alternatives out there.

Some of my LiPos are getting on in age; more than 3 years old. I need to get into a production mode and depuff the subset that has seen abuse. So far I’ve sent only 6 to the recycler, but more will follow as I go through and remove dead cells. Most of my lot only see use on road trips; the rest of the time I have them sitting at about 3.7V/Cell for storage, and connected in parallel.

I am thinking, scheming, and planning the next road trip. Didn’t do one last year because of the knee injury/quadriceps tendonitis. The knee is plenty strong this year, though I may not be able to get time off for a long trip. Still enjoy planning, regardless. The 2012 system-wide upgrade made serious improvements to the ebike and I am anxious to break 200-miles in a day, or get to up to 55 mph on a flat.

It’s just amazing the things we can accomplish with a little engineering and ingenuity.

Safe travels, KF

[lbz5mc12]

Can the e-bikekit controllers safely handle more than 48V or do you need a different controller? I have one and was wondering about upgrading in the future but if I can just pop a higher voltage battery on, without buying a whole new kit, that would be great.

[Kingfish]

This is a very pregnant question… and I yam an engineer.
Therefore I offer the short answer: No.

And then there’s the compete answer… which is perhaps driving wildly off topic… although I like a good yarn, so here it is.

To begin: I have used several controllers in the past provided by a handful of suppliers – and they are nearly all the same in terms of origin and design (though not of throughput). I am trying to think of the count that I have gone through… off-hand I’d estimate 8 since 2009. The majority have been Lyen 12-FET Controllers.

Sidebar & small disclaimer: As a curious person who likes to tinker and experiment, sometimes those experiments go awry – with sparks… There’s nothing wrong with the controllers – I’m just trying to push the envelope with what I’ve learned on ES and share in discoveries – however well they went or not… And I wish not to take away from the value or quality that is provided by our good suppliers. I have personally met Edward Lyen and think of him most kindly and with great respect. He provides a product of which I understand with trusted familiarity to use as a base for modification.

For this 2011 Road Trip, the Lyen Extreme Modder 12FET controller was used. It is based upon a standard design that is well-documented by a cadre of ES-greybeards, with me chiming in late to the party. Every controller that I have owned before moving to Lyen-models required the “R1” mod to improve or upgrade the voltage-carrying capacity. Essentially – Battery Voltage (VBatt) comes into the controller and is divided by the MOSFETs into digital 3-Phase by the Microcomputer & associated discreet components. The “Voltage” going into the controller is gated by two factors: MOSFETs & the first Voltage Regulator managing the 15V rail before the 5V logic.

When you purchase a controller, it used to be that we had a choice between 75V and 100V maximum output, though today most common ebike controllers for BLDC direct drive motors are capable of 100V – gated by the MOSFETs, therefore we no longer have to concern ourselves with 50% of the challenge.

The other half of the problem is knocking down the VBatt coming into the primary Voltage Regulator. On most controllers this is managed by the resistor complex is called “R1”. Low-powered boards would have just one (relatively) big fat resistor coming off the +VBatt leg before going into the input of a LM317 VR. Off-the-shelf, most controllers can handle 36 to 48V because they use a variant of the LM317 component that can take +40V differential, although late models now are supplied with a +60V differential (or perhaps a different management circuit altogether) which enables them to handle up to 75 Battery Volts (or more). In the old days we would modify the value of R1 (et al) to allow the use of larger voltages, although as hinted this is no longer a problem if you purchase your controller from the right supplier.

Longwinded, it is now after explaining this that I can answer your question:
E-Bikekit does not make controllers, just like they do not make hub motors; they are a reseller and integrator. I do not know off-hand what type of controller they are selling; if you own an E-Bikekit controller I would search ES to find out more about that particular unit and how to modify the voltage capacity, though I’d wager it is an R1 mod of some sorts… don’t quote me.

IMO tinkering with R1 is passé; there are better models to choose from at a reasonable price that have better standard features. I tend to look for Ebrake, 3-Way, Cruise, CA, and the programming adapter on top of the mainstay list – and these can be found easy enough in the Marketplace on ES.

That said, no one makes a Kingfish model that is ready for bear. There is lots, Lots, LOTS of room for improvement!!! But we take what we can get and do the best we can with stone knives and bear skins.

One last thought: If you decide to replace your controller, take a close look at the connectors and try to match up one that will mate with your existing equipment, otherwise you’re in for another tedious mod… not that it ever stopped me.

From the PNW, safe travels down there in SoCal, KF
PS - let me know if you'd like to swap some sunshine for rain; gimme a reason to use sunglasses

[lbz5mc12]

Thank you. The controller has 3 connections, motor, battery and throttle. They're the black socket style connectors. It's a black controller with no markings and it has an on/off switch.