What about an Endless-sphere wiki?

[liveforphysics]

Think how much time and effort all you experts can save if all you need to do is post this:

ES_MrT.jpg

Yes.

This would be nice.


We do need a Wiki. It would save a lot of time, and be a golden sample of perfect info, which needs to happen here badly to keep the info pure. Too many of the smart folks left or don't bother to correct newbs spreading incorrect BS anymore, and that leads to becoming like all the other forums.

[amberwolf]

I still think a wiki is a good idea. I also suggested it, way back when I was still kinda new here.

There really is a tremendous amount of info that could be written into articles. Even if it *is* noobs doing the majority of the work, it can still be edited by someone that sees a mistake, and fixed. All the history of each edit would still be there to undo something that's "fixed" by mistake.

There was a point for several months when I would have had lots of time to spend on converting threads to articles (but not so much anymore, though I do have a lot more computer time than anything else, given my sleep situation). That's when I really wanted to do it.

The thing is, unless the wiki is actually a *part* of the ES site, and not something separate, somewhere else, I wouldnt' want to do any work on it. I would prefer to keep it all as one thing, on one domain, etc. I'd also want something that cant' be too hard to script somehow (says the person with no clue on scripting anything ), which is to automatically create a wiki user for each ES registration. (yes, I know this means spammers that get thru would also be on the wiki). But in order to get wiki editing powah, one must ask for it, just like one must ask for Guru status on ES to be able to add info to the Tech Reference sections, IIRC.


The nice thing about a wiki is that while one can have a discussion about the article or subject at hand, it is *completely separate* from the actual article, and not even displayed, unless the reader clicks on that tab within the article. So all the talk about what goes into an article can be there, but the article itself remains concise and clean.

Linking to other articles can be done more easily, too, rather than a post that just has lists linking individual posts within a thread, or the original thread author having to update the OP, anyone that wants to link relevant articles together can do so while reading, by editing in the appropriate pointers onto the words within an article. This will not have to be done when creating the article, as it basically would in an ES forum post, but rather can be added later at any time, by whoever has the time at that moment.


It would of necessity start small and grow slowly, as various people have time, but could eventually contain all the useful correct info from ES's discussion forums in a technical encyclopedia of tremendous value.

Additionally, there are bits of software out there that allow the saving of an entire wiki to a local file, for reference at any time even offline. This can also be used by anyone to back up the entire Wiki, so loss of all the ES info would essentially be impossible (unlike now).


Also, AFAIK, the only wiki ever practically started was not on the ES site; but started by another ES member (cant' rmember who), and it got spammed out of existence.

[jonathanm]

There was a point for several months when I would have had lots of time to spend on converting threads to articles (but not so much anymore, though I do have a lot more computer time than anything else, given my sleep situation). That's when I really wanted to do it.

Yes, I feel the same. I am spending a lot of time on ebike knowledge right now and I would like to use that energy to produce something useful (apart from the bike of course ) As I get more into this I will be less inclined to do it, noobs asking the same shit over and over again will grind me down and I will become a grumpy jaded old git like you guys. This is the noob/expert paradigm, and I'm sure there is a solution as long as we are aware of its existence and work with it rather than against it.

The thing is, unless the wiki is actually a *part* of the ES site, and not something separate, somewhere else, I wouldnt' want to do any work on it. I would prefer to keep it all as one thing, on one domain, etc.

I agree.... wiki.endless-sphere.com it ought to be. This is already the only *serious* URL option i reckon.

I'd also want something that cant' be too hard to script somehow (says the person with no clue on scripting anything ), which is to automatically create a wiki user for each ES registration. (yes, I know this means spammers that get thru would also be on the wiki). But in order to get wiki editing powah, one must ask for it, just like one must ask for Guru status on ES to be able to add info to the Tech Reference sections, IIRC.

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:PHPBB/Users_Integration

It would of necessity start small and grow slowly, as various people have time, but could eventually contain all the useful correct info from ES's discussion forums in a technical encyclopedia of tremendous value.

The wiki software has multiple user levels, with corresponding rights and privileges. Noobs could gather relevant info from old threads and dump it into a "holding page" for sorting and basic editing. Reviewers, bureaucrats, stewards and admins ( i think thats the terminology) can then approve or reject bits for publishing, or for further discussion. I reckon if it takes ome time to go through this process, and even to refine this process, it will be time worth spending. If users can even just view (but not edit) the holding pages and discussion pages, it will be a lot more useful than hunting the forum for hours.....

[liveforphysics]

Ok, in another thread, I created some crude framework that I think is roughly the right order for someone to be able to use a wiki. Keep in mind, most folks don't even know the units and words we are using, so it needs to start there, then move incrementally towards the interesting topics which cant even be explained until the core things like units and basic relationships become solid.

If we assign 1 person to each section (like a volunteer thing), I am willing to peer-review the sections that suit my knowledge base, possibly edit content as/if needed etc. Then we run the content by a few newbs, and ask them if it's helpful, or what parts they don't understand etc, and write up examples or diagrams as needed until the typical newb and read the sections incrementally and answer their question themselves, as well as have the skills and resources to go much further in the Ebike world than they did before.

Here was my crude framework:


The order we would need to have for FAQ's to work would be something like this.

Basic definitions: cell, parallel, series, battery and battery array, ESC, hall effect/sensor,

Basic units of electronics:
Amps, Volts, Watts, Watt-hours, Amp-Hours, Ohms, Henrys, Farads, Ri, etc. And an explanation and example for each one.

Then, after they finished the unit FAQ, they could move onto a basic formulas FAQ: V= IR, I^2R=Watts of heat loss, IR = voltage drop, C-rate, internal resistance calcs, PWM% calcs, various power and energy calcs, etc.

Then once they have finished and understand the core basic calculations, they could move onto higher level FAQ's, which are really impossible to grasp if you don't have the core basics solidly understood.

Like an FAQ on battery charging process, what happens and how it works and how to do it right.

An FAQ on understanding the relationships between torque and RPM to determine mechanical power, and conversions from watts to HP etc.

An FAQ on motors, and try to break down all the extremely wrong info people spread constantly about motors (and I was once one of them myself, thank you Miles and Jeremy)

An FAQ on understanding the differences that matter to the user in battery chemistries.

An FAQ on the role and effects PWM plays in the battery/controller/motor system.

An FAQ on understanding inductance and how inductance and temporary flux energy storage enables our bikes to function (because it really requires an entire FAQ just to itself).

An FAQ on motor efficiency and which areas are the substantial sources of loss, and how the 5 major loss groups change with RPM.

An FAQ on cell balancing and the various methods and mechanisms that can accomplish it, and which are practical and impractical in practice.

etc etc etc At least 20 more topics would be needed.

[jonathanm]

All sounds good to me. Perhaps this could be split into "levels" or something...so a basic 101 that EVERYONE needs to know...then moving up from there.

Then there is also some more practical stuff......

bike mechanics specifically related to ebikes.

products available, what they do, what the options are.

hacks, mods and improvements

legal stuff by country and state.

etc etc

EDIT: perhaps the first step is to sketch out a hierarchical tree structure and its branches. Once everyone approves of that more or less, we can then start blooming like the darling buds of may.....

EDIT 2: lol, Luke that's basically what you just said, sorry....late

[neptronix]

The thing is, unless the wiki is actually a *part* of the ES site, and not something separate, somewhere else, I wouldnt' want to do any work on it. I would prefer to keep it all as one thing, on one domain, etc. I'd also want something that cant' be too hard to script somehow (says the person with no clue on scripting anything ), which is to automatically create a wiki user for each ES registration. (yes, I know this means spammers that get thru would also be on the wiki). But in order to get wiki editing powah, one must ask for it, just like one must ask for Guru status on ES to be able to add info to the Tech Reference sections, IIRC.

I totally agree with you about the wikis. It being on a separate site is a huge turnoff for me. I suppose i just don't see it as legitimately part of the site if it isn't integrated somehow.

Maybe it's a weird mental quirk of mine; then again going off the offsite, non-integrated wikis i have seen on the web, most people seem to be of a similar mindset.
Hell, my IT company thought it was a great idea to have a wiki, 3 out of 20 guys actually maintained it and maybe 5 actually read it, it fell to neglect because actually talking to each other was easier. Eventually it was wiped out.


Luke, i think the majority of the info we need is floating around. What do you think of basically putting together a faq full of quotes? .. then filling in the blanks?

One of the car sites i'm on has a few big info threads like that. Here is an example that basically lays out practically every suspension possibility for the Nissan SR20 cars.

http://www.sr20-forum.com/suspension/1801-b13-b14-b15-suspension-information.html

A little cheap, but it does the work and takes a hell of a lot less time.

[jonathanm]

That approach is great from a user point of view, but there are problems....one user is responsible for collating and updating the info. There is not a clear place for discussion or debate, etc etc.

You're right that there is nothing worse than a badly attended wiki....so it will only work if there is a critical mass of people behind it. Of course some members here carry more mass than others.....

[neptronix]

That approach is great from a user point of view, but there are problems....one user is responsible for collating and updating the info. There is not a clear place for discussion or debate, etc etc.

You're right that there is nothing worse than a badly attended wiki....so it will only work if there is a critical mass of people behind it. Of course some members here carry more mass than others.....

Both approaches have issues:

+ Person writing article have to do all the work, and reap the resulting credit for doing so, but they also have complete control.
+ People writing article can split up the work, but nobody gets credit, "knowledge of the commons" effect is positive, but it means that people have to argue things over until a consensus is reached.

I just prefer #1 because it keeps all the info on the site.. not in some separate place.

[jonathanm]

I agree that #1 is better in terms of tighter content control etc....but who's gonna take that on?....are you volunteering? lol

As far as keeping it on the same site, as long as its on the same domain, I dunno if thats an issue....does wiki.endless-sphere.com not work for you?

[jonathanm]

I setup a mind map on mindmeister.com for this. dunno if this is workable but thought I'd try it...I like mindmaps...

This is just to brainstorm a structure...I agree completely about keeping any actual wiki on the ES domain. maybe someone who know the mods can see about that.

http://www.mindmeister.com/99617450/endless-sphere-wiki

you can edit it by clicking in the bottom left corner and creating an account or logging in with facebook etc. Or you can login with the account I created - username endlesssphere password ebikes don't know how well it handles concurrent logins by the same user though.

I just filled in a few basics before bed...if anyone wants to have a crack at it then feel free.

[number1cruncher]

Who cares? I already built mines. Screw the newbs, they suck anyway...

[TylerDurden]

Hell, my IT company thought it was a great idea to have a wiki, 3 out of 20 guys actually maintained it and maybe 5 actually read it, it fell to neglect because actually talking to each other was easier. Eventually it was wiped out.

Same thing happened here on the sub-domain we had the wiki on.

A link-repository is at least easier to edit.

[neptronix]

Hell, my IT company thought it was a great idea to have a wiki, 3 out of 20 guys actually maintained it and maybe 5 actually read it, it fell to neglect because actually talking to each other was easier. Eventually it was wiped out.

Same thing happened here on the sub-domain we had the wiki on.

A link-repository is at least easier to edit.

Word.

[jonathanm]

Ok, so how would you propose we do it? I'm not hung up on a wiki, just would like to help get all the pertinent info in one place and have some time to help right now.

[neptronix]

Ok, so how would you propose we do it? I'm not hung up on a wiki, just would like to help get all the pertinent info in one place and have some time to help right now.

Well, since you are kind of new right now, and are probably in the research stage, it would be cool if you started bookmarking things on one or two subjects.. cut and paste quotes from people into a doc on said subjects, and assemble yourself a tapestry of a FAQ or just an informational article..

For example, there are a couple threads where people tried to catalog all the various hub motors, and quit at some point.
These can be all merged together, and you can fill in the blanks elsewhere.

If there is anything that seems to be controversial, research it further. Often times, both sides have their own truths and the overall picture is somewhere in the middle.

There is tons of great info here, it's just a bitch to find. If you are a newbie and are in the research stage, you have a perfect opportunity to start writing yourself a FAQ. You may have holes in your knowledge to make it comprehensive, so you should probably ask people questions along the way.

[jonathanm]

Right, I can do that, but there has to be an agreed repository for this info to go to... and also some structure to it that covers the wide range of topics.

And I've just been researching the stuff I need to know for my own build, so unless every noob is gonna build something exactly like mine...

And I'm not gonna attempt to explain any more than the basic electronics principles when theres people around who can do a much better job of it, and want to, like Luke suggested he might be up for.

So how do we get this stuff together so the sum equals more than all the parts?

[Metallover]

This is the part where it gets tricky. Only an experienced member will know what all to include, and where to find it. I guess we inexperienced members could start some basic laying-out of the faq and link to a bunch of useful threads.

Google docs could be a good place were all the information could be compiled.

[neptronix]

I have been trying to get people to agree for a while now. The closest we have is YPedal's FAQ thread.
So i think that would be the best place to branch out from.

I personally will be writing a few lipo articles and sticking them in my signature. If he wants to add them to his FAQ thread, great. If not, they're in my signature.

As for you two, just start compiling info you find. Eventually one day you may have a FAQ written, or will be able to contribute to one. Don't jump the gun and throw something out there until you have a full understanding.
I have been taking pictures and collecting data since i started building. I suggest you do the same too.

[jonathanm]

I think this approach is what is here already. disjointed information, contradictory FAQs, opinions rather than facts. etc etc.

This is not the spirit of a knowledge base.

I have time right now, I have a slow spot at work, and I'm filling my head with ebike stuff. I can start writing my own little FAQ, but who cares? What happens when I get busy with work or another project? who's gonna add to or update my FAQ?

The point is to have a central, golden, reference, that anyone can contribute as little or as much as they like, whenever they are able to. I don't care to "own" anything I contribute, and putting it in my sig doesn't help anyone much especially if there are a ton of other people all with FAQs in their sig.

Like I said, the point is to create something *greater* than the sum of it's parts.

[TylerDurden]

Another approach, is for more moderately knowledgeable members to help the noobs, so the gurus can keep honing the cutting edge.

This requires a greater participation from the community, but it sets a precedent that is self-perpetuating and not reliant on a just few members.

This also requires the moderately knowledgeable members have a good grasp of the fundamentals and the ability to keep it simple for the noobs.


It will not result in a single, golden resource, but it will build a distributed body of knowledge that is searchable under a wider set of terms and contexts.

[katou]

I have no pull with the powers that can say yes or no to this ES wiki idea. Can someone who does please see if they will do it? Or not?

We've been bouncing this ball around for a few months now. I think people are starting to become irritated that info is so hard to find. I've used the search, and it's like walking through mud.

It is simply idiotic not to have some sort of basic knowledge repository. What's a transistor? Why is volts better than amps?

It would streamline the learning process for newbs, and as well, contribute to overall electrical and mechanical literacy on the web. Ebikes info lies at the crossing of electrical stuff, electronics, mechanics and ergonomics. Very interesting crossovers, and few fields that I have gone into have caused me to learn as much as I have had to, just to get this far.

I really like LFP's layout of the hierarchy of info. I'd start writing something today, if I knew it wasn't going to just disappear.

I was a member of the BassList in 1998, and it nearly devoured my life. Where is the amassed info generated by all of those people? Gone.

I have a hard time working on something that can just go poof. The ability to save it all to a disk at any time is so attractive, I could kiss it.

Please, please, could someone please DO something about this? Check with KnightMB or something?

Katou

-edited for grammar

[neptronix]

I've seen well written FAQs/informational articles written by *one* person entirely. It's not impossible.
I've also seen the same things written by multiple people, cultivated by 1 person, to form a great article also.
The only problem is staying motivated.
And the problem with wikis is keeping a group of people motivated when they aren't getting credit for anything.

You are free to create a wiki of your own, link it in your sig etc.
Sorry i'm not on board. I prefer to have the information on the board where it can be discussed in the same place.
Don't let me, or anyone else in this thread stop you from doing that!

I got all sorts of shit when i started the ES facebook from a vocal minority, and guess what happened immediately after; it flourished.
You just never know how these things are gonna go until you try.

In the meantime, since we aren't too organized here, if you have any questions about lipo or geared motors, feel free to ask me. I will do my best to fill in the blanks for you. That's the most i can personally offer. It sounds like not enough people are on board with the wiki idea. I will be writing very detailed articles with pictures included in the meantime.

[fechter]

I agree it would be nice to have something like a wiki and that it needs to be a part of this site, but the software doesn't really support it.

As a lame attempt to accomplish this, I created the Technical Reference Area, where you need permission to post so it doesn't turn into another 100 page long discussion. It was also to prevent complete idiots from posting misleading, incorrect information there.

Anyone who wants to compile a thread of condensed information without all the typical comments from others, just let me know and I'll add you to the guru group so you can post there.

Perhaps some variation of this scheme might work better, or just change the name of the forum to make it more self explanitory. I'd like something that works with the existing forum software.

[jonathanm]

great, more people up for it

I dunno how many we need to make it happen....maybe 10ish could be critical mass.....6 noobs and 4 gurus....?? Some of the work doesn't need ANY knowledge of ebikes..

BTW what happened to the data from the previous attempt? We could use it to start off.

As to whether it should be a wiki, a collection of FAQs, or whatever, we could do a poll. In fact we could do a poll to see how many people want it, would contribute, or couldn't care less also....

Neptronix, you do plenty of stuff around here already it seems....

[TylerDurden]

Wiki has been started twice already since 2008 (one here, one off-site), and died both times.

The biggest irritation I have heard so far, is noobs PMing rather than posting. That is resolved by redirecting them to post.

I have not heard many noobs complaining that the search is hard to use.


What is idiotic, is that members who have been posting here over a year cannot explain basics simply to noobs.