This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

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This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby bigmoose » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:56 am

Here is a guy that I have been studying the past week, Andrea Rossi. He is an Italian inventor of the eCat or E-Catalyizer. It is a device in the genre of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR). If this is real it will revolutionize the world. Oil will be for lubrication only.

Andrea claims the following for his device:
    Utilizes nickel powder and simple hydrogen
    Utilizes a trade secret catalyst in the device
    The small "lemon" sized eCat produces ~7 times the input heater power or about 7 Kw out
    It can run for up to 6 months on a load of nickel powder
    It can run without out input heaters, so called self sustain mode of 7 Kw out for "a while"
    It is currently optimized to produce 100 degC steam
    Negligible radiation outside of shielding
    Post reaction products are radiation free

Andrea "talks" a lot, so there are a lot of info trails on the net. Some of them say that a large reactor ran away in the spring and produced over 120 Kw during the event. The linked video says there is a burst of gamma rays when the eCat "lights off" which would be a signature of a nuclear event. All the video's show folks working in very close proximity to eCat's that are in operation, and there is no mention of health effects.

There is a statement in the video that he used a unit to heat his laboratory for a year or so successfully.

Here is a picture of Rossi with four eCats with the exterior open. The outside plumbing is copper pipe from a hardware store it looks like.
fusione-fredda-rossi.jpg
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Here is a close up of the reaction chamber:
110406-d-Img+3_ECAT_BODY.jpg
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Here are the two Swedish scientists he allowed in and gave some spent Ni powder to for them to analyize. They found Copper isotopes in the Ni after the runs, perhaps indicitaive of transmutation.


Here is a video where Rossi leads you through his device:


Here is a "news" type analysis of his device:


What do you think? Is it real? Will Rossi eCat's be the future for the world? Like all reality, Rossi is not perfect, he has a failed oil recycling company that got into pretty deep trouble with the Italian government in years past. The video says he has contracted with the University of Balogna to study his device at the cost of 500K euro. Is he for real, or is this a complex fraud?
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby pelle242 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:30 am

This had a lot of exposure in media herein Sweden, mostly because of the two Swedish scientists (is some one fishing for the Nobel prize?) The biggest problem is that no one is allowed to see whats inside or whats actually going on inside. Patents are supposed to be pending but very sketchy information on that. An as you mentioned, this guy has a background, is not a nuclear specialist in any way and the university of Bologna is not known for its nuclear research either.

It's pretty much cold fusion all over again....
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby oldpiper » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:35 am

Didn't have 40 minutes to go through the second video, but ...

He says he is making 7 kg of steam from water an hour (boiling 7 liters/hour). That sure doesn't look like steam equivalent to 1 liter of water every 9 minutes. It looks more like the amount of steam which comes from our home vaporizer, maybe 1-2 liters overnight. For that amount of steam, the 800 watts he is getting from the wall is probably sufficient (I didn't run the numbers, just an estimate from the video, because he is so far off from what he shows). Either his math is terrible or his demonstration is really messed up and he's a genius.

Is he really talking about 62Ni + 1H -> 63Cu? Bizarre. (He's not even using heavy water like Pons and Fleishman, when they claimed to be making helium through cold fusion).

Color me skeptical. We shall see what the folks at Bologna find (unless it's negative, in case it probably won't make enough of a splash to make the newswires).

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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby bonzo » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:04 pm

If this was the real deal, he would already be dead.

Not to mention, the numbers don't add up when looking at the volume of steam.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:27 pm

Just a thought, but real water vapor is invisible. You only see thermal distortion in the air from heat, or condensed water vapor droplets. Its possible to have a ton of steam and look invisible.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby Joseph C. » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:37 pm

This has been going on for quite a while. Yet nobody has confined anything yet.

Cold fusion has had so many let downs in its history that it it is real this could be the boy who called wolf syndrome.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:38 pm

I'm not saying this is real at all, just saying you can't entirely disreguard from the weak steam visual.

If I could have 2hrs with the running device I could prove or disprove it concretely.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby NickF23 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:16 pm

If it works then why the secrecy? Why not release design to everyone and let people repeat his success. It doesn't even matter if current scientific theory can explain the device or not because if it works people will build lots of them and theoretical scientists will have to work overtime to try to work out the maths. If it works he will become very famous and wealthy from the patents.


Assuming the device doesn't work it isn't necessarily a case of fraud. It's sometimes possible to become so attached to a bad idea that it corrupts every other part of the mind. Admitting error can sometimes feel like letting go of everything good, not so easy if it also feels as if there is no prospect of ever
having anything else to replace it.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby Joseph C. » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:18 pm

Rossi has a dubious record. Apparently, he convinced a lot of investors that a device could turn waste into oil. The project failed: the end product was unusable.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby LI-ghtcycle » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:37 pm

Very interesting to say the least, time will tell, but I have a hard time understanding why you would set up a company in a country who's economy is so bad it's being bailed out by the EU. :?

Failure is the natural consequence of experimentation and risk.

No one has come up with a great success with out first suffering through a good many failures, it's how well we learn from them that really matters, I think it will be sorted out pretty soon once Mr. Rossi makes an agreement he feels safe with and is able to fully disclose his process to a trusted independent body that can thoroughly test the process.

Given the possibilities, this could be a real game changer, but at the same time, anyone can put together a "black box" with a secret ingredient that could very well be a honest mistake, but the fact that there are so many willing to put up so much cash to investigate this looks promising. :)
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby Joseph C. » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:40 pm

Okay, I'm calling it now. Rossi is a con-artist in my opinion.

He cost the Lombardi Authorities, and ultimately the Italian taxpayers, €22 million in clean up costs after he promised that he could turn waste into oil.

I looked into this earlier this year in January as we were going to write a post on his Cold Fusion device but we held off. Something behaviourally familiar about him made me hesitate. It was the right decision.

Big Moose, I know this would be a wonderful invention and would change the course of human history if this were to happen. Sometimes things are just too good to be true, however.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby bigmoose » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:06 pm

I am very much a skeptic on his claims.

However, I am not skeptical in the general area of "non hot fusion", call it cold fusion, LENR, boson reactions, weak nuclear events... I have seen with my own eyes results that are "interesting." I had a researcher I trust show me curves for loading palladium with hydrogen. Exothermic when loaded, endothermic when unloading. Totally explainable with current chemical theory of hydrides. Then he loads it with deuterium it is exothermic, and unloads the deuterium from the palladium and it is exothermic. Same rig, same calibrations on the calorimeter, and back to back. Totally repeatable. As the researcher said, Moose, here is the data... I don't know what is going on, but this is the data, it's different with deuterium.

About Rossi's patents, he said he will release the details of the "lemon" and the "secret catalyst" when the patents are issued. The problem is the US will not issue any "cold fusion" related patents, so the odds of his patent being issued is nil IMHO at this time. Being pragmatic, I would agree with his position that if there is not a patent, I cannot disclose the secret catalyst. It would be immediately copied and he would get zero. Of course if it didn't work, that would be immediately evident. But a GE or Seimens or xyz co. would never voluntarily just give him a royalty if not forced by a legal license if it did work.

About the steam out of the hose. That bothered me a lot also. I was expecting to see quite a stream of steam! Rossi said something aligned with Luke, that if the steam is "hot" you will not see it. That agrees with what I have heard on ships that you can be cut in half with a steam jet and not see it. There are a couple of videos where folks hooked tea kettles up to hoses and photographed the output. Their firing rate was 1Kw and 2Kw, close to Rossi's claimed 700 or so watts, and to my eye, their steam plume looked like Rossi's.

I was brainstorming with a few folks today, and we figured a way he could potentially fudge the results, but only if the data run was for a short period. If he runs it for 8 or more hours weighing the water source reservoir we don't think he could still fudge a factor of 7 on output. Assuming of course that real calibrated instruments were used.

I don't know... crazy stuff for sure! I was hoping since we are international board, that there might be more stories from the continent. If there is, please post them. We had heard about the oil recycling/trash to oil project that was a complete disaster. Also I think his degree is in philosophy or some other social science, not a hard scientist or engineer. Not very good credentials for sure.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby pelle242 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:17 pm

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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:30 pm

bigmoose wrote: Being pragmatic, I would agree with his position that if there is not a patent, I cannot disclose the secret catalyst. It would be immediately copied and he would get zero.



Gotta break this thought path my friend.

If anyone comes up with an idea that radically helps improve the world and quality of life for everyone on it, getting something in return shouldn't even be a player in the thought path of even a mildly ethical man. Because the alternative (the evil done because you hold-out even for 1 day longer) can be so many lives and lifetimes of blood and sin you could have prevented.

Everyone dies. Some die rich, some die poor, all that matters is the people you helped along the way, not what you got out of it.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby bigmoose » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:09 pm

Luke reading the great articles that pelle provided links to above you can see that Rossi was incorporating in the late 1990's in the USA. Let's say there has been about 15 years of research in this area that he and or his investors had to fund to get where the allegedly are today. They can't just turn all that work over gratis. The open source companies have "business models" that allow them to do that and still make a profit to use as they please.

There is greedy profit, bad :evil: and a reasonable return on your investment, work, blood sweat and tears, that to me is good :twisted: The latter you get to use to do more good things with! :mrgreen:

You and I may disagree on this for a while going forward... :( Total open source is only in the hereafter, me thinks.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:21 pm

bigmoose wrote:Let's say there has been about 15 years of research in this area that he and or his investors had to fund to get where the allegedly are today. They can't just turn all that work over gratis.


Do you think perhaps around 100 people die for oil securing related causes per day? Maybe a lot more, there always seems to be a war or two somewhere in the world over it at anytime.

If you spend just a conservative 6 months of delay fooling around with lawyers, can you live with perhaps 18,000 lives on your hands?

Or to look at it differently, what wouldn't you give to save thousands of lives, and immediately improve the lives of billions. I can't personally see what amount of money makes those losses pay off.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby Joseph C. » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:22 pm




For better or for worse, €200 million has been invested in setting up a factory producing 10kw devices for the home.

I hope it is true but I won't be holding my breath.
Last edited by Joseph C. on Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby bigmoose » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:09 pm

Luke, I just ran across someone asking Rossi your question. For better or worse, here is the question and his answer.

Mario Behling: Dear Andrea Rossi, as this discovery could change the fundamentals of politics and society in the world, why do you choose to pursue an 'old world approach' of patenting your apparatus rather than making it freely available such as people do, who contribute in the free software community, open content community (like Wikipedia) etc.?

Rossi: The way you suggested is nice to think but non realistic, and we are working only to arrive to realistic results. If a technology is not proprietary nobody invests in it, and a generic dispersion of knowledge would not lead to the concentration of resources necessary to arrive to real results. Without the incentive of industrial profits things do not work. The history of communism has teached this to all of us.

Question: What will you do with the Nobel Prize money? Fantastic discovery!! / Ted Olsson

Rossi: In Italy we say: NON VENDERE LA PELLE DELL'ORSO PRIMA DI AVERLO PRESO Translation: don't sell the fur of the bear before hunting him. The 50% of our profits is destined to the healthcare of children in the world whose parents have not the money to pay for it. Indipendently from events that are on the will of God.


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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:52 pm

The guy sadly is a fool then.

Or blind to the changing winds of development and technology.

Making it open would be the fastest route to proving it's real or not real. The instant it was shown to be real, the following day, 10's of thousands of folks (maybe even a million?), myself included would take over continuing development and packaging into various usable forms for suiting different human energy needs. There is simply no corporate interest on earth, not even NASA or DOE/DOD that could rival this development group.



Maybe he was a part of the vast majority of wall-street idiots who said Google couldn't possibly work because they don't charge users and give the source code away freely to most every product/project. :-)


Regardless, from an ethical perspective, if you ever find yourself with a contribution to give to the world that literally has the largest positive impact in the history of mankind, how could anyone live with themselves for even a single day without freely giving it?
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:28 pm

liveforphysics wrote:Regardless, from an ethical perspective, if you ever find yourself with a contribution to give to the world that literally has the largest positive impact in the history of mankind, how could anyone live with themselves for even a single day without freely giving it?


i predict that someday if you live long enuf (or aren't dead already :wink: ) you will change your mind.
i'm with you 100% in wishing it were so but what you describe is a lot like christianity.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:33 pm

Something on this level, energy, is universal and the entire world would gobble it up.


If this is real, it's as big (or maybe bigger) than fire. Something >99.9999% of humans directly benefit from in all sorts of aspects of their lives on a daily basis.
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HOOO NOOOOOOssss

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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby John in CR » Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:39 am

Let's hope this guy really is turning nickel into copper, and not turning nickels into pennies.

Luke, I'm with you, though not limited to only things so huge. Make the next stop on your world tour Italy, and bring one of your bikes. I bet after letting Rossi ride it, he'll let you get in and see if it's really 7kw out.

In the meantime, let's see the factory making the 10kw units. I'll bring a case of 100W light bulbs.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby Joseph C. » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:41 am

The twist: taken from Wikipedia.

In August 2011 Rossi announced that he had cancelled his contract with Defkalion, stating that none of E-Cat's technology had been transferred to them.[51][52] Rossi said that "the issue [that caused the cancellation] is just financial, not personal, nor technological, nor scientific", and that he wouldn't comment further because he was preparing a lawsuit against Defkalion.[51] A board member of Defkalion likewise indicated that the reasons for the cancellation were entirely financial.[53] Rossi later confirmed this, specifying that Defkalion was unable to fulfil its contractual obligations in due time, and stated that the 1MW unit which was planned for Greece would now be installed in the USA.

AmpEnergo
In May 2011, According to Ny Teknik, [55] Rossi reached an agreement, for an undisclosed sum, with AmpEnergo,[56] a US company,[57] to receive royalties on sales of licenses and products built on the Energy Catalyzer in the Americas.[58] Three of the founders of AmpEnergo knew Rossi since 1996, through Leonardo Technologies, Inc.,[59] which Rossi co-founded, selling his interest in the late 1990s, and which has been working on U.S. government contracts.[60] One of the founders was Robert Gentile, former Assistant Secretary of Energy for Fossil Energy at the U.S. Department of Energy.
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Re: This man may change the world Andrea Rossi & eCat

Postby grindz145 » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:51 am

After the whole EEstor BS, I reserve all judgement until some third party, actually has a unit and it's tested AND we know the cost.
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