fractional reserve

[Gordo]

The only debt one should consider is a debt which will pay off it's self. A tool, truck, commercial boat, education, etc. The idea that one should have consumer debt is absurd.

But that's my point:
As for the protestors, they've actually been phenomenally successful. The point is to get the issue discussed, to get the media talking about inequality and fairness. Mitt Romney might very well lose the election simply by releasing his tax returns and showing that he pays an effective 15% tax rate on his millions, while many of us wage earners pay 25% or higher. Once the media starts looking at these issues, the general population starts to notice, and they eventually make their voice heard. I don't think there will be a big revolution, but significant change might be on the way.

MikeB,
We agree on most points.
Equating issues being discussed, with success of the protest movement, is not one of them. Most politicians dicuss only what will enhance their image. I have several close friends who were and are politicians. I consider them "good people" as they all love the job and hate the process. The process of getting re-elected. The party provides them with pr experts who attempt to craft their every word. Up until the second election, a "good person" (in my view) will listen to the point of compromising their integrity. After the second election, they have all said to hell with the process. They got down to doing the job and to heck with the consequences. They quit consulting with the pr experts as required by the party. One served as the minister of several branches during the 3 terms and ended as Speaker. One has gone from a huge party majority position to a tiny party minority, while still having a large personal majority. I count these as personal successes as well as a country's success. The success of a democratic system that will elect good people, not just politcally savvy people. Discussing the problem of the day is often more smoke and mirrors. My point was the misplacement of the occupation. Take it to the wage slaves.
Time will tell.
But have you figured out the NEW GAME Where the smart money has gone

[Sunder]

I don't use debt even if I could potentially profit from it because I KNOW it's WRONG and makes people's lives hell. I don't use banks and credit cards because I've NEVER met a banker that didn't deserve a painful execution and by using their system, at all, I'd further empower them.

So since I don't use the system, I have had a VERY difficult time not killing myself because I see lies and pain all around everyday and nothing but more ignorant people supporting the system that causes it all.

I am a homeless, outcast refugee in my own country. I also don't take advantage of unconstitutional, socialist government programs because of the same reasons. So, when I need money, I hit the streets and find any work I can. I may not be rich, but because of my commitment to honesty, integrity and compassion, and my serious intolerance for drama and greed, I have acquired many valuable skills.

(quote trimmed down by me)

Dropped out of this thread for a bit. Sorry.

What you've written above is your prerogative. But don't blame the system, it's your CHOICE. Your understanding of honesty, integrity, and compassion is very different form the vast majority of the western world, but that's your right, provided you do nothing to undermine our system. My honesty is ensuring that I work hard for my employer and report my income as earned. My integrity is that I will not disadvantage anyone else to increase my own wealth. My compassion is to make sure that beyond helping fund the "socialist government programs" through taxes, I contribute not only money, but time to help out those in need. I couldn't do any of that being a "homeless outcast refugee". I do it far better as an IT professional, who is well paid, and therefore can use valuable skills to contribute to society - that society will then remunerate me for, and which I can use in the ways described above. Poverty is not a virtue - Charity is. The poor cannot serve their community as much as the rich can.

I've already shown in previous examples how debt - when it is used to invest (such as when the baker maker used it to increase production), benefits everyone in the community. Debt is not the problem. People who don't know how to use debt are the problem. Nobody is obliging you to become indebted, but if you are dogmatically avoiding it, I think you are misguided, not virtuous.

I had heard plenty of stories like the ones Gordo have told - stories of negative amortisation - where the bank increases the amount owing, rather than insisting you pay more off. That is a story of a nation's lenders gone crazy, and in such a situation it's much harder fault the borrowers. I've heard advice in the 80s and 90s that was something like: "Ask the bank what you can borrow, and take 90% of it" or "If you want to to start a business, even if you use your own money, write a business plan and try to get a bank to lend you everything you need. If they won't lend money to you, don't start the business". At the time that was sound advice - if the bank will lend it to you, it probably means it's a safe loan - but when the nation's bankers go nuts like they did in the US, you can't trust that.

Australia has its own individual stories of debt abuse, but thankfully, our banking system was far more prudent. We have a far lower reliance on brokers to sell loans, so we don't get silly loans issued just to earn a broker commission. While we did have high LVR loans, they were quite unpopular, and we never had negative amortisation or NINJA loans.

Again, stories like this make me sad. People don't understand debt, and so they fear debt. So rather than learn, they avoid it totally, and blame the system.

[Philistine]

Dropped out of this thread for a bit. Sorry.

What you've written above is your prerogative. But don't blame the system, it's your CHOICE. Your understanding of honesty, integrity, and compassion is very different form the vast majority of the western world, but that's your right, provided you do nothing to undermine our system. My honesty is ensuring that I work hard for my employer and report my income as earned. My integrity is that I will not disadvantage anyone else to increase my own wealth. My compassion is to make sure that beyond helping fund the "socialist government programs" through taxes, I contribute not only money, but time to help out those in need. I couldn't do any of that being a "homeless outcast refugee". I do it far better as an IT professional, who is well paid, and therefore can use valuable skills to contribute to society - that society will then remunerate me for, and which I can use in the ways described above. Poverty is not a virtue - Charity is. The poor cannot serve their community as much as the rich can.

I've already shown in previous examples how debt - when it is used to invest (such as when the baker maker used it to increase production), benefits everyone in the community. Debt is not the problem. People who don't know how to use debt are the problem. Nobody is obliging you to become indebted, but if you are dogmatically avoiding it, I think you are misguided, not virtuous.

I had heard plenty of stories like the ones Gordo have told - stories of negative amortisation - where the bank increases the amount owing, rather than insisting you pay more off. That is a story of a nation's lenders gone crazy, and in such a situation it's much harder fault the borrowers. I've heard advice in the 80s and 90s that was something like: "Ask the bank what you can borrow, and take 90% of it" or "If you want to to start a business, even if you use your own money, write a business plan and try to get a bank to lend you everything you need. If they won't lend money to you, don't start the business". At the time that was sound advice - if the bank will lend it to you, it probably means it's a safe loan - but when the nation's bankers go nuts like they did in the US, you can't trust that.

Australia has its own individual stories of debt abuse, but thankfully, our banking system was far more prudent. We have a far lower reliance on brokers to sell loans, so we don't get silly loans issued just to earn a broker commission. While we did have high LVR loans, they were quite unpopular, and we never had negative amortisation or NINJA loans.

Again, stories like this make me sad. People don't understand debt, and so they fear debt. So rather than learn, they avoid it totally, and blame the system.

Agree with everything you said Sunder. You have some pearls in this thread. This is what I mean when I say I find it so frustrating that people view the GFC as some necessary stage of evolution in the failure of capitalism or such. It is just a point on the bubble and debt swing that humans go through over history, it is just this time we allowed the sophistication of our debt instruments to get us into some scary territory, and the greed in this instance was particularly extreme, but we have been doing this for centuries (boom/busts and bubbles). As you point out, one of the main reasons Australia didn't suffer the same pain as the US and Europe is that we were much more sensible in how we allowed debt to be issued and sold, but that doesn't mean we didn't have loads of debt, we just had quality debt.

But there seems to be a conflation of points in this thread by some people, on the one hand people are ranting about the evils of debt, but they are also lamenting the consequences of a highly specialised society. THe answer to both those concerns is the same thing (and is the same answer for most problems in life): it is about balance and moderation - ie, no debt is stupid, but Ninja loans and a blackhole of Credit default swaps is also stupid. LIkewise, I think it is somewhat absurd that a person with some crazy specialisation can make billions of dollars, but not know how to change the oil on their car or to cook a basic meal, but I also really like mondern dentistry, and when I get sick I really like the fact that I am a member of a highly advanced and specialised economy.

[Gordo]

basic meal, but I also really like mondern dentistry, and when I get sick I really like the fact that I am a member of a highly advanced and specialised economy.

A long ways off topic, but I always wonder why our Native poplulations around the world, do not give us any credit for what our society has brought to their world

[Sunder]

Agree with everything you said Sunder. You have some pearls in this thread. This is what I mean when I say I find it so frustrating that people view the GFC as some necessary stage of evolution in the failure of capitalism or such. It is just a point on the bubble and debt swing that humans go through over history, it is just this time we allowed the sophistication of our debt instruments to get us into some scary territory, and the greed in this instance was particularly extreme, but we have been doing this for centuries (boom/busts and bubbles). As you point out, one of the main reasons Australia didn't suffer the same pain as the US and Europe is that we were much more sensible in how we allowed debt to be issued and sold, but that doesn't mean we didn't have loads of debt, we just had quality debt.

But there seems to be a conflation of points in this thread by some people, on the one hand people are ranting about the evils of debt, but they are also lamenting the consequences of a highly specialised society. THe answer to both those concerns is the same thing (and is the same answer for most problems in life): it is about balance and moderation - ie, no debt is stupid, but Ninja loans and a blackhole of Credit default swaps is also stupid. LIkewise, I think it is somewhat absurd that a person with some crazy specialisation can make billions of dollars, but not know how to change the oil on their car or to cook a basic meal, but I also really like mondern dentistry, and when I get sick I really like the fact that I am a member of a highly advanced and specialised economy.

Thanks Philistine,

Many doomsayers who say Australia is just having a delayed housing bubble crash overlook the fact that we do have better quality credit. Sure it's not all low LVR, low stress, ultra-prime borrowing, but with a foreclosure rate of less than 0.2% even during tougher times, it's hardly a NINJA loan either, is it?

I had a professor of finance tell me once that the world is going towards paying people more and more, to learn more and more about less and less. While it sounds funny, it's true! The less I know about, the more I get paid, it seems sometimes. I live in the lower north shore of Sydney, I don't know how well you know the area, but for example, I find it hard to find a non-genuine auto parts store (Such as Repco or Super Cheap) here. There's one nearly every fourth suburb where I come from (South Western Sydney). I suspect that it's mostly because none of my local friends know how to service their own car... These are engineers who could probably build you a new car, and merchant bankers who could buy a new car every week on their salary, but can't look after their own one.

I also agree with you that I very much appreciate living in a specialised society. Last night, I met this girl at a pub - sister of a friend. She works in cancer research, and I told her about a project I volunteered my workplace for - an distributed computing Xray crystalography project for early detection of cancer. That's pretty much all I said - She had no idea what distributed computing was, but was able to explain to me in detail what X-Ray crystalography was, and we collaborated to figure out together how the project must be working. It's astounding that two people with no knowledge of each other's work, can combine the two to advantage society in such a way. It would take her 4 years to get basic knowledge of my field, and 6 years to get basic knowledge of hers. Who would want to spend 10 years to learn both to get a project like this up and running?

[Philistine]

Philistine wrote:basic meal, but I also really like mondern dentistry, and when I get sick I really like the fact that I am a member of a highly advanced and specialised economy.


A long ways off topic, but I always wonder why our Native poplulations around the world, do not give us any credit for what our society has brought to their world

I might be totally misunderstanding your post Gordo, but are you inferring that "native" (whatever the hell that means) populations, are generally unhappy for the "development" (and I have put the quotes on intentionally to acknowledge the value in the term), we have given them?

I don't know, in Australia amongst the politically correct, there is a lot of chat about how the Australian Aborigines were the brilliant fieldkeepers of this country, and engaged in harmonised burnings of the land, and how when whitey got here it all went wrong. There is also rabid condemnation of the fact that Australian aboriginal's have some of the worst life expectancy, ear and eye infection and kidney failure rates, in the whole world. The funny thing is (if "funny" can even occur in such a situation), is that the current life expectancy rates and eye/kidney/ear failure rates, are advanced by decades from what they were..... White man didn't retard the poluation, it was somewhat retarded to begin with (i don't mean "retarded" in a mean way, I mean retarded in its literal sense, a failure to progress).

I have travelled extensivelly throughout extreme remote parts of northwestern Australia, and Central Australia, both in a professional capacity, and in a personal capacity. I have some research on my side.

I only feel confident enough to rant so offensively on this issue, because I come from two generations of people directly involved in the economic development of indigenous people. Anyone on this forum who wants to take me on about the economic development and welfare of Australia's first people, better bring some serious quals and experience to the table. I get so sick of this idealisation of "the noble savage". Australian Aboriginal culture is some of the most harsh, nasty, brutish shit, you will ever see. It is also amazingly generous and communal, and one of the most giving and caring cultures in the world. But at the end of the day it is easily the most unsophisticated in the whole (and I mean whole), world.

I feel the same way about Australian indigenous culture, as I do about global muslim culture. Both are nasty, brutish, tribal, retarded forms of community. Those are statements of fact I am willing to back up, and please don't make out like shit would all be sweet if we just went back to eating what we hit with sticks and screwed the minute there was grass on the wicket....

[nicobie]

please don't make out like shit would all be sweet if we just went back to eating what we hit with sticks and screwed the minute there was grass on the wicket....

You really do have a way with words.

[Gordo]

I feel the same way about Australian indigenous culture, as I do about global muslim culture. Both are nasty, brutish, tribal, retarded forms of community. Those are statements of fact I am willing to back up, and please don't make out like shit would all be sweet if we just went back to eating what we hit with sticks and screwed the minute there was grass on the wicket....

My story is very similar, but too, too long. My first job was for a native chief on his 7 man boat. I have spend many years in many capacities visiting and working in the Villages. One of my partner's wife is native. 20 years ago she asked for help with a Canadian Aborinal Project. From helping with this, I learned a great deal about our natives position. They adopted the Australian model 100% in attacking the Central government for compensation. The brought advisors from Austraulia. Their legal bill in the 1970's was @ $100M per annum, paid by the taxpayers. I do not know what the gov. legal bill was or what the compensation was. This model has been followed to this day, at a very high burden on the working poor. We have the current spectacle of one village having received an average of $10,000 per man, woman and child, per annum over the past 5 years. $90M Here is a post by one sympathetic person;
"1800 people sharing 90 000 000 over 5 years is 10 000 per person....they can't afford infastructure, they can't afford schools....they are living on nothing....they have no jobs to work....and yes, they chose to live there...but what happens when you can't afford to move....what happens when you don't feel educated enough to survive....fixing holes in walls doesn't seem like a priority when you can't afford to live. My little home, which is paid for, costs me a 1300 a month in bills....never mind food, clothing, etc...REALITY SUCKS but the government has shot themselves in the foot by not setting them up for success! "

They are crowed up to 3 generation of 20 people in one house. No running water, no sewer, inadequate heat, no food, actually starving. But wait, 20 people with an $833 per person, per month. No, the $833 does not go the the person. The house was free, the water, if they fix the system is free (the water manager is paid a large salary) and the funds go to the band manager, no taxes of any kind. Free medical, dental, eye care etc. They built a multimillion dollar cultural center, which has no heat or water either. They live in the middle of a forest that they own, and according to reports have no heat for their houses. They have absolutely refused 3rd party management. This is the condition of about 1/3 of our natives.

This is NOT "THE" horror story by any means. I have seen many horror stories. A village of 680 people, all with diabetes by age 30+ Flying out for treatment, dialysis, transplants, amputations, blind training. I counted 25,000 cans of pop being delivered every 2 weeks. Is there any connection between invert sugar and diabetes? I taught the kids to make a can crusher with two 2 x 4's and a door hinge. Zillions of cans now go to recycle instead of out to sea with each rain.
The bright side is 2/3 of the bands have managers who care for their people and the entire band is doing very well. A few are buying up non-native farms and have huge successful businesses.
Sorry I started.

[hydro-one]

WEll i for one would like to know where the smart money is "NEW GAME"

[strantor]

what are all these vague references to "new game"? I googled it and all I get is video game hit lists and a mudvayne album. Why all the vagueness? can someone post a link?

[mdd0127]

I don't use debt even if I could potentially profit from it because I KNOW it's WRONG and makes people's lives hell. I don't use banks and credit cards because I've NEVER met a banker that didn't deserve a painful execution and by using their system, at all, I'd further empower them.

(quote trimmed down by me)

My integrity is that I will not disadvantage anyone else to increase my own wealth. My compassion is to make sure that beyond helping fund the "socialist government programs" through taxes, I contribute not only money, but time to help out those in need. I couldn't do any of that being a "homeless outcast refugee". I do it far better as an IT professional, who is well paid, and therefore can use valuable skills to contribute to society - that society will then remunerate me for, and which I can use in the ways described above. Poverty is not a virtue - Charity is. The poor cannot serve their community as much as the rich can.

Your integrity is something you've tricked yourself into so you can sleep at night. I'll type it out again. If you use banks and big unethical corporations.....AT ALL......even though you ADMIT that they've behaved in horrible and unethical ways, YOU ARE FURTHER EMPOWERING THEM TO SCREW MORE PEOPLE. Sorry about the caps. It's not intended to be yelling, just emphasis so my point is understood. It's a pretty simple one but for some reason it keeps getting overlooked or dismissed.

Another point that I'd like to make is that MOST RICH PEOPLE HELP THEMSELVES and only themselves. A very few do extremely minor little things here and there to keep face. Give a man a fish type of thing.....Most of the help I've received when I really needed it was from poor people with good hearts. Poor people usually tip better than the rich in my experience....which is vast. Rich people go play golf and generally ignore the global and local consequences of their greed. People that have more than they need and can ever use is WRONG and GREEDY. They are running the show because people like you play into their system. Do you not get the point that every time a loan is given out, EVERYONE else's money becomes worth less??? You seem like a very smart person........time to work on the honesty and integrity thing......seriously. If you use the products of a corrupt system that's ran by EVIL people and causes social inequity, you ARE supporting that system.

For example, I feel bad for using this computer right now because I know that Liberia is in the shape it's in so people can have cheap laptops and the people that sell them can still make lots of money. I'm trying to ween myself from it though because I know it's wrong and if this laptop breaks.....I'll do everything I can to fix it. My last laptop lasted ten years and I was inside of it every few months for the last 5 until it did something I couldn't figure out (a little black chip with no labeling on it quit). I keep using a laptop because it's basically the only tool to promote change that I have. If I spoke like this in public, I'd be declared an enemy of the state and locked away indefinitely in Guantanamo. It's even scary to post stuff like this here but if they get me for telling the truth......so be it. I'd LOVE to be proven wrong.

I will personally do EVERYTHING I can legally do to stop the current, dishonest, greedy, self centered system.

I'm so disgusted with the actions of participators in the current westernized industrial society model, that I've seriously considered leaving the country......but the more I think about it, the more I think that I need to stay here and make a stand. So my new plan is occupying an long abandoned bank owned property. I won't use the house or utilities, only the land, and the only changes I plan to make will be putting in a garden. If a REAL person wants to buy the property with their own money, I've improved it for them and will gladly move on, but if some bank agent comes in and wants to cause problems so the property can return to it's previous neglected, abandoned state and a conversation with them doesn't change their mind about letting me stay until someone else wants to live there.....it's war, that person will become an enemy combatant in my eyes, and I will defend my right to exist in peace on this planet..... with force if necessary.

You can keep typing big long sentences and making pseudo points that the peanut gallery agrees with but the bottom line is: If you USE the system, you SUPPORT the system and are therefore just as guilty of treason against humanity as the bankers, corporations, and politicians you enable.

I'd still have a beer or go on a bike ride with you though because I know for sure that there are millions of good hearted people out there that have been programmed beyond logic.

Check out Joe Rogan's podcast with Micheal Ruppert. Research the facts. Then try to sleep at night knowing that by participating, you are supporting an evil, unethical, and immoral system.

[Sunder]

Sorry, its 's a secret known only to us Illuminati, and our brothers in Majestic 12. (They read these boards all through a crawler, so they look like the Majestic 12 bot when they log on.)

It seems though, we may need to send a caution through the ranks to stop people mentioning the code name of our plans... even vaguely

[Philistine]

My story is very similar, but too, too long. My first job was for a native chief on his 7 man boat. I have spend many years in many capacities visiting and working in the Villages. One of my partner's wife is native. 20 years ago she asked for help with a Canadian Aborinal Project. From helping with this, I learned a great deal about our natives position. They adopted the Australian model 100% in attacking the Central government for compensation. The brought advisors from Austraulia. Their legal bill in the 1970's was @ $100M per annum, paid by the taxpayers. I do not know what the gov. legal bill was or what the compensation was. This model has been followed to this day, at a very high burden on the working poor. We have the current spectacle of one village having received an average of $10,000 per man, woman and child, per annum over the past 5 years. $90M Here is a post by one sympathetic person;
"1800 people sharing 90 000 000 over 5 years is 10 000 per person....they can't afford infastructure, they can't afford schools....they are living on nothing....they have no jobs to work....and yes, they chose to live there...but what happens when you can't afford to move....what happens when you don't feel educated enough to survive....fixing holes in walls doesn't seem like a priority when you can't afford to live. My little home, which is paid for, costs me a 1300 a month in bills....never mind food, clothing, etc...REALITY SUCKS but the government has shot themselves in the foot by not setting them up for success! "

They are crowed up to 3 generation of 20 people in one house. No running water, no sewer, inadequate heat, no food, actually starving. But wait, 20 people with an $833 per person, per month. No, the $833 does not go the the person. The house was free, the water, if they fix the system is free (the water manager is paid a large salary) and the funds go to the band manager, no taxes of any kind. Free medical, dental, eye care etc. They built a multimillion dollar cultural center, which has no heat or water either. They live in the middle of a forest that they own, and according to reports have no heat for their houses. They have absolutely refused 3rd party management. This is the condition of about 1/3 of our natives.

This is NOT "THE" horror story by any means. I have seen many horror stories. A village of 680 people, all with diabetes by age 30+ Flying out for treatment, dialysis, transplants, amputations, blind training. I counted 25,000 cans of pop being delivered every 2 weeks. Is there any connection between invert sugar and diabetes? I taught the kids to make a can crusher with two 2 x 4's and a door hinge. Zillions of cans now go to recycle instead of out to sea with each rain.
The bright side is 2/3 of the bands have managers who care for their people and the entire band is doing very well. A few are buying up non-native farms and have huge successful businesses.
Sorry I started.

So glad to hear all that Gordo, totally accords with my Australian experience. Thankfully in Australia we have an aboriginal activist called Noel Pearson, the guy is a deadset legend, and understands the only way that he will emancipate his people, is to get them off the welfare handout, and being self reliant proud people. The policitics of aboriginal culture in Australia is some of the most nasty shit you will ever see (makes the Australian Union movement look like a bunch of pussies, and they regularly break peoples legs and have them fall under shipping containers). This guy Noel Pearson is just a godsend to the welfare of Aboriginal people, he really is the Martin Luthar King of Australia's indeginous folk. In my opinion he will single handedly deliver economic outcomes for his people that will surpass fifty years of throwing money wastefully at welfare. It's funny what you said Gordo about the Aussie consultants, I am fully aware of that "industry".

[jonescg]

Noel has the self-empowerment approach, which is definitely popular amongst white conservatives in Oz - not the blackfellas though. He knows very well that leading horses to water hasn't lead to any quenched thirst. Tough love might mean no services in the Tanami communities; pack your things and move to Adelaide for a job. However, Pearson is no stranger to the Aboriginal 'industry' either. He's been at the receiving end of many a taxpaying fund. I too believe he is working in the best interests of blackfellas, but I wouldn't canonise him just yet. He's ruffled a few conservative feathers when he openly stated his support for constitutional amendments, recognising aborigines and removing the race bits.

It's been a frocked up situation for so long, everyone has forgotten what the goal was. Are we whitefellas to blame for letting it get so bad? Are the blackfellas to blame for not getting off their arses and working? Or are we just asking them to be white?

What this has to do with the OP I don't know, but anyway, stay outta my booze.

[Gordo]

With appologies to the OP, here is a reference to our version of Noel, who has never been on the gov-tit.
http://www.thepolitic.com/archives/2006 ... nce-louie/
That was 2006 and his band now owns a huge campground, where we often stay, a hotel, golf coarse, winery, fruit farms, grapes, veggie farm, etc. He is absolutely & very publically brutal, towards the leaders of "failed bands." He took his band from broke to profit in only 5 years. Not BS Aboriginal Business Plan profit where the government gives you equipment, which you rent for the season, sell and get free new equipment next year, but almost real whitefellas profit. They still pay no tax.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... 844275.ece
On the other side and off the scale, we have the Canadian Grand Chief, Shawn Atleo, President of our local university, sucking at the government tit until the top of his head caves in.
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20 ... is-111206/
This is the $90M starving band noted in my previous post.

[nicobie]

So glad to hear all that Gordo, totally accords with my Australian experience. Thankfully in Australia we have an aboriginal activist called Noel Pearson, the guy is a deadset legend, and understands the only way that he will emancipate his people, is to get them off the welfare handout, and being self reliant proud people. The policitics of aboriginal culture in Australia is some of the most nasty shit you will ever see (makes the Australian Union movement look like a bunch of pussies, and they regularly break peoples legs and have them fall under shipping containers). This guy Noel Pearson is just a godsend to the welfare of Aboriginal people, he really is the Martin Luthar King of Australia's indeginous folk. In my opinion he will single handedly deliver economic outcomes for his people that will surpass fifty years of throwing money wastefully at welfare. It's funny what you said Gordo about the Aussie consultants, I am fully aware of that "industry".

Hahahahhahhaaa...

In the wonderful USA the whole problem was solved with Indian Bingo

[deVries]

The real problem with the banking sector, more so now a problem with the U.S. rather than Europe, is that no one is regulating this industry.

What caused this? The precursor was underfunding the FEC as a facade & fraud for regulating politicians' donations by just making it a reporting agency without funding to prosecute or investigate & report bribery. In addition, Presidential Debates are controlled by the Republicans & Democrats with the power to effectively lock-out 3rd parties from participation to grow gradually over years & decades.

The USA is both a Fascist-Socialized system for the wealthy power elites in Wall Street & Banking that used deregulation to create new unregulated financial instruments that leveraged that industry into the dominate "production industry" of the USA that is based on financial fraud at its root-system of power & control. Our financial system is so top heavy that it does nothing productive in producing real goods & services except to steal company's assets by raping it to enrich themselves in return for The Big Lie! Yes, everything is better off to have gotten rid of all those inefficient employees & their factory we now get for pennies on the dollar overseas. Whoopee, what a deal for you & for me!

You have cronies in Universities getting paid by interest groups to disseminate deregulated Austrian School of economics bullshit.

This is really a Ron Paul phenomenon. The Gold industry seems to support ideas based on the Gold Standard, and there is a lot of association of these "Gold Standard" believers as Ron Paul supporters too.

From Wikipedia... "Supporters of the Austrian business cycle theory respond that the theory applies to the expansion of the money supply, not necessarily an expansion done by a central bank. Historian Thomas Woods argues that the crashes were caused by various privately-owned banks with state charters that issued paper money, supposedly convertible to gold, in amounts greatly exceeding their gold reserves."

If Woods is correct, then why base a monetary system on gold?

From Wikipedia... "Jeffrey Sachs observes that among developed countries, those with high rates of taxation and high social welfare spending perform better on most measures of economic performance compared to countries with low rates of taxation and low social outlays. He concludes that Friedrich Hayek was wrong to argue that high levels of government spending harms an economy, and "a generous social-welfare state is not a road to serfdom but rather to fairness, economic equality and international competitiveness."[107] Austrian economist Sudha Shenoy countered by claiming that countries with large public sectors have grown more slowly.[108]"

Ronald Regan fired all the Air Traffic Controllers to continue the long march of perennial Republican ideology to destroy labor unions and any national social welfare programs including Social Security too. This is a form of "evil", imo, because it does nothing to improve the lives of the people that were fired. Hiring inexperienced labor at lower prices to replace these workers only began the vicious cycle towards the race to the bottom of lower wages, longer work hours, more family workers, & a lower standard of living for the majority of people except the wealthy ruling class in the financial industries that have manipulated the politics worldwide connecting with other power elites in foreign lands that are far less democratic to export ever cheaper goods to exploit their own populations for more wealth & power in the hands of a few.

The entire school of economics then becomes corrupted. You have moronic politicians who haven't a clue accepting terrible advice from their advisers - who are paid by the special interest groups. You have corrupt Finance Ministers such as Henry Paulson and Timothy Geithner all financial/banking insiders.

President Obama is an intelligent academic that has no real world common sense in leadership skills to reform our dysfunctional Banking & Wall Street national default. Combine that with an incredible teleprompter presentation speech skills with charisma, and he could get people to believe in change in 2008 but he stopped doing that after the election. He is too self-assured yet dependent on the arrogance of a sociopathic intelligentsia that rules in group think all the way from his Harvard schooling to the installed base of financial kings and their barons controlling DC & NYC & foreign government infiltration too. Obama wasted his Presidency and leadership abilities working in the background for Health Care Reform while Rome was burning. He needed to be very visible & a crusader to eliminate the financial evils that were so exposed & harmful to the entire nation. Wasn't that a no-brainer to do that?

WTF did Obama keep Larry Summers or any of these other proven failures in his administration? WTF hasn't the Dept. of Justice & SEC been geared-up to 50x their previous size to prosecute the hell out of the "evil doers" (as Bushie would say) & force new laws to be created to regulate these bastards & fund their regulation & prosecution for the next 100 years & beyond?

There is no lack of lawyers or fraud laws to have hunted down these scum bags already, but the willpower to do it. This is proof enough for me that the system is a fraud, & we are lead by a Fascist-Socialist government controlled by financial fraud sociopaths that control the majority of our economy that is now the Banking system & Wall Street leveraged on ever expanding toilet paper to replace our REAL labor & to export our valuable natural resources, rather than produce real goods & services here in the USA.

To make matters worse you had a corrupt clown like Alan Greenspan in charge of the Federal Reserve for nearly two decades who deregulated the whole industry during that period.

Even Greenspan said under oath the system failed & should have never been trusted to self-regulate. What a stupid-ass from the beginning to the end.

Finally, the financial markets (which should be closed down) make everything more unstable with ridiculous gambling (derivatives), credit debt swap insurers such as AIG leveraging out insurance to all an sundry (regardless if they actually own the asset or not) without having any reserve to guarantee bad debts.

Yup, it's a fraud economy that has taken over our previous Real Economy.

All of the above exist in a miasmal sea of toothless, de-staffed, disempowered regulators.

Damn straight

Who started all this? Well you can thank Thatcher who gave Reagan the opportunity to implement all this. And there are still people on this forum who support deregulation and want to elect a politician who supports more deregulation - the mind boggles.

That's because so many suck the hateful tits of media millionaires like Rush Limbaugh & other such idiots or Fox Opinion Hosts that brainwash & hatewash the airwaves & internet with their matrix of pod receptors. For the ideologically higher educated the appeal is made with Think Tanks or Religious Universities for those that are "so" intelligent.

I certainly have become a lifetime Independent from any party. I want no political parties. There should be public funding of campaigns. Both the House & Senate must have term limits. Lobbying on behalf of corporations & other non-persons would be banished. Representatives would be required to read & understand all legislation & present it online with their commentary & analysis with public review & constituent commentary allowed for 90 days before passing anything. Only declared wars & states of national emergencies can allow for faster legislation when unforeseen needs arise.

I'm not a Utopian & realize there will always be less fortunate circumstances & unfair situations for some percentage of the population. Not everyone can be middle class or rich financially, because some people will opt out of the system or they can't achieve that status for numerous reasons. Some people can not become self-supporting & will need help from other people & their financial resources. When you become old or sick, *you* will be dependent on others whether you have money or not.

Our economic system in the USA should support non-wealthy workers that have lost their jobs through no fault of their own with guaranteed training & education (when needed) & a new job of equal pay they had before (except for wealthy people). Whether that is done with Labor Union, Local, State, National Government, and Insurance contributions, I don't really care. But we all should have a right to work to continue to support our family & afford retirement.

[deVries]

I don't use debt even if I could potentially profit from it because I KNOW it's WRONG and makes people's lives hell. I don't use banks and credit cards because I've NEVER met a banker that didn't deserve a painful execution and by using their system, at all, I'd further empower them.

(quote trimmed down by me)

My integrity is that I will not disadvantage anyone else to increase my own wealth. My compassion is to make sure that beyond helping fund the "socialist government programs" through taxes, I contribute not only money, but time to help out those in need. I couldn't do any of that being a "homeless outcast refugee". I do it far better as an IT professional, who is well paid, and therefore can use valuable skills to contribute to society - that society will then remunerate me for, and which I can use in the ways described above. Poverty is not a virtue - Charity is. The poor cannot serve their community as much as the rich can.

[...]

Do you not get the point that every time a loan is given out, EVERYONE else's money becomes worth less???

What if the person that took out the loan produced a product that saves your life? It also saves the lives of millions of people over time. Therefore many people lived & kept much more money in circulation. Beyond the money part these people received what is priceless & could never be repaid by any amount of money or loans. One of these people was a beautiful woman that becomes your wife, & so you have a long life in love together.

Was everyone's money worth less or more?

Your integrity is something you've tricked yourself into so you can sleep at night. I'll type it out again. If you use banks and big unethical corporations.....AT ALL......even though you ADMIT that they've behaved in horrible and unethical ways, YOU ARE FURTHER EMPOWERING THEM TO SCREW MORE PEOPLE. Sorry about the caps. It's not intended to be yelling, just emphasis so my point is understood. It's a pretty simple one but for some reason it keeps getting overlooked or dismissed.

You seem like a very smart person........time to work on the honesty and integrity thing......seriously. If you use the products of a corrupt system that's ran by EVIL people and causes social inequity, you ARE supporting that system.

"No man can be an island." We are all not given a choice of when or where to be born including selecting our parents or citizenship & market system. There are no time machines to go elsewhere. Do we not have to "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's."

Do most people question the fundamentals of the financial system we are born within, or are we given extensive education about how this market system works vs other alternative or competing ideas too?

What other time & place do you think you could go to to escape this situation that would present you with a better life overall assuming you start off with the same status you have now?

For example, I feel bad for using this computer right now because I know that Liberia is in the shape it's in so people can have cheap laptops and the people that sell them can still make lots of money. I'm trying to ween myself from it though because I know it's wrong and if this laptop breaks.....I'll do everything I can to fix it. My last laptop lasted ten years and I was inside of it every few months for the last 5 until it did something I couldn't figure out (a little black chip with no labeling on it quit). I keep using a laptop because it's basically the only tool to promote change that I have.

Ahhh, you do understand that "no man is an island", and the Internet & your computer was built on huge amounts of financial leverage & loans in the trillions of dollars by now & into the future. So, use that financial leverage & loans to do what you can to improve the world & be part of it fully if you really want to change what's wrong with it too. Some money and a loan might help save someone's life both physically & psychologically too.

No one knows how to eliminate criminal behavior on the micro or macro scale in politics & finance, so it has to be constantly monitored, investigated, and prosecuted to be kept to a minimum. We have been doing just the opposite of that since the 1980's in the USA thanks to the ideology of deregulation. Financial fraud & bribery flourishes in our national politics & financial markets, since it's been deregulated & not funded to prevent detection & prosecution. The FEC (Federal Election Commission) & SEC (Securities Exchange Commission) are not given enough powers & funding to prevent or prosecute these crimes, and, now, it has spread into the Banking & Insurance markets thanks to Glass Steagall being repealed in 1999.

[deVries]

Check out Joe Rogan's podcast with Micheal Ruppert. Research the facts. Then try to sleep at night knowing that by participating, you are supporting an evil, unethical, and immoral system.

Hey, I checked-out the video, but it's so disjointed & just throwing conspiracy theories & 1/2 truths out there including some complete falsehoods... like WTF, maybe those in total agreement need to learn how to distinguish fact from fiction & that one fact (or more) does not prove one's assumptions, motives, or conclusions about the original screw-up(s) that may be factual. I hope communes or perma-culture or other off-the-grid philosophical groups they seem to be offering as an alternative to modern economies can do better than "conspiracy theories" as their basis for existence. The host & guest were certainly very excited about sexy hippie chicks as an essential ingredient.

Joe Rogan's podcast with Micheal Ruppert (For example, see 1:25:00 one hour twenty-five minutes for wacko 911 crap.)

The Amish have survived for well over 150+ years, so you can try to devise a better system and do it. Creation of self-sufficient communities is no easy process, and you will have to sacrifice yourself to better future generations if you so choose to do it.

Technological societies are too complex & too growth oriented & too dependent on financial leverage that there is no going back to a simpler time with less population. Sure, everything is going to collapse on some level someday because of a natural disaster or war or the latest GFC, etc.

So what! That IS the Human Condition... we're locked in... some few will escape "the apocalypse"... I'm certain a lot of the military & wealthy & powerful will get that opportunity to survive too. Maybe we will evolve before that happens, but who knows?

I'm all for alternative communes & perma-cultures & planned communities that can work in some micro/macro scales & co-exist with our dominant societies & economies. I hope several can succeed even on a nation state or international scale. Maybe one or more could be an example for improving what we have now?

[Gordo]

Another point that I'd like to make is that MOST RICH PEOPLE HELP THEMSELVES and only themselves.

If you are referring to business owners, I have a question for you? What is a guy who has taken the risk, invested $5M in a business and employs 100 skilled, hard working individuals like yourself worth? Is he worth 10X what he pays you, 1000X what he pays you, 1% of his annual payroll, or what?

On a much smaller scale, I once had 3 crews of 3 men each, working for me. I took 10% of gross income, for running a business with $500,000 of my equipment and paid the rest to the men. To begin with, each crew grossed @ $25,000 every 2 weeks, so a quick calculation shows you my gross income was $15,000 per month, @$10,000 net. Because of increasing regulations, the season became shorter and the gross income dropped to $20,000 per crew. The men immediately complained to me, demanding a greater share of the income. I refused, but as the crews were totally independent, I offered to sell the equipment to them, so each crew could have an independent business. 2 crews bought the businesses and I managed to sell the third business to a buyer of our product, which kept the crew as employees. I carefully explained that it took 3 crews production to make the business work well. The 2 independent crews quickly found they could not manage the business and sold out. The employees of the new company, earned far less than when they worked for me. I simply started a new business in another field, with a new partner. Put 95% of my money into investments, spent 5% on new equipment, along with my partner's 5%, and earned more, with far less effort and 9 fewer geniuses to babysit. My guys were so smart, they knew they were each worth far more than I was. After all, they were doing all the real work. I was just a parasite. According to them, a % is an unfair way of compensating the guy who took all the risk, invested all the money, built all the equipment, transported the product, marketed the product, collected all the receivables and did all the accounting. Their thinking was so fuxed up, they thought of me as their employee and because there were 9 of them, felt they should collectively decide on what I was to be paid. Trade Union THINKING, at it's finest. Think about this the next time you believe you have some "worth." You are worth precisely what you are paid. If this is not true, quit and go find what you are worth somewhere else. This is what I have always done. The sooner you figure out the only way to receive what you are worth is to pay yourself, the better.

[/quote] A very few do extremely minor little things here and there to keep face. Give a man a fish type of thing.....Most of the help I've received when I really needed it was from poor people with good hearts. Poor people usually tip better than the rich in my experience....which is vast. Rich people go play golf and generally ignore the global and local consequences of their greed. People that have more than they need and can ever use is WRONG and GREEDY. They are running the show because people like you play into their system. [/quote]

While laying in a hammock in Mexico, I met a fellow in the next hammock who asked me if I was a "lucky guy?" We were both living in the back of pickup trucks with a canopy. We spent many days discussing our "luck", and became life long friends. After a few days of this banter, a fellow in the 3rd hammock, who had never said a word to us, pushed his hat back from over his eyes and said when you 2 assholes decide to go back to work, get in touch with me, I have a job for you. He began treating us to drinks and dinners and gifts for our wives. We tried to explain to him that we were unemployable. When we were home, we received a photo album of our time together, more gifts and invitations. I went back to doing my thing and my friend, who had quit the financial business, went to work part time in a hardware store, drove school bus part time, and opened a hotdog stand in the summer, when school was out. He had been traveling for over a year, until broke. He cut and delivered firewood in his spare time. After a few years, he built and opened a nice restaurant on the site of his hotdog stand, employing 20 people. Now we are both comfortably retired, I guess we qualify as just a couple of GREEDY guy in your eyes, even though we never had time to learn to golf?
My friend, quit looking out your ass, a good life is still to be had by working smart. Unless you are brain damage and confined to a mobility device, there is work to be done.

[wineboyrider]

Philistine wrote:
So glad to hear all that Gordo, totally accords with my Australian experience. Thankfully in Australia we have an aboriginal activist called Noel Pearson, the guy is a deadset legend, and understands the only way that he will emancipate his people, is to get them off the welfare handout, and being self reliant proud people. The policitics of aboriginal culture in Australia is some of the most nasty shit you will ever see (makes the Australian Union movement look like a bunch of pussies, and they regularly break peoples legs and have them fall under shipping containers). This guy Noel Pearson is just a godsend to the welfare of Aboriginal people, he really is the Martin Luthar King of Australia's indeginous folk. In my opinion he will single handedly deliver economic outcomes for his people that will surpass fifty years of throwing money wastefully at welfare. It's funny what you said Gordo about the Aussie consultants, I am fully aware of that "industry".

This so reminds me of Russell Means. Russell Means could be my President too, but for now it is Ron Paul.

[deVries]

This so reminds me of Russell Means. Russell Means could be my President too, but for now it is Ron Paul.

He apparently has beat throat cancer & is recovering. Hopefully, he can speak well again... he had a good voice & ideas. Alex Jones had him on his Internet/Radio show several times. Means sure as hell is a controversial figure within the Native American Indian Nations. It seems many of them don't welcome his leadership or something?

[wineboyrider]

This so reminds me of Russell Means. Russell Means could be my President too, but for now it is Ron Paul.

He apparently has beat throat cancer & is recovering. Hopefully, he can speak well again... he had a good voice & ideas. Alex Jones had him on his Internet/Radio show several times. Means sure as hell is a controversial figure within the Native American Indian Nations. It seems many of them don't welcome his leadership or something?

Because, he believes in "real" sovereignty and that means cutting the Indians off of the Federal teet. He is controversial among those that want to forever be slaves to the Federal government. A firm believer in the 10th amendment and the 14th amendment of course.

[deVries]

OT: Speaking of the 10th Amendment, I guess Obama-care will be won/lost based on the Commerce Clause, since the Supremes seem able to make the following type of decisions based on theory alone? ..."The theory was that the marijuana could enter the stream of interstate commerce, even if it clearly wasn't grown for that purpose and that was unlikely ever to happen (the same reasoning as in the Wickard v. Filburn decision)."

Most recently, the Commerce Clause was cited in the 2005 decision Gonzales v. Raich. In this case, a California woman sued the Drug Enforcement Administration after her medical marijuana crop was seized and destroyed by federal agents. Medical marijuana was explicitly made legal under California state law by Proposition 215; however, marijuana is prohibited at the federal level by the Controlled Substances Act. Even though the woman grew the marijuana strictly for her own consumption and never sold any, the Supreme Court stated that growing one's own marijuana affects the interstate market of marijuana. The theory was that the marijuana could enter the stream of interstate commerce, even if it clearly wasn't grown for that purpose and that was unlikely ever to happen (the same reasoning as in the Wickard v. Filburn decision). It therefore ruled that this practice may be regulated by the federal government under the authority of the Commerce Clause.

I realize there is no direct relationship here except that the Supremes make decisions based on Theory alone with the Commerce Clause, so maybe Obama-care will have some appeal based on a Theory alone proposition? Like everyone needs Health Insurance for the Common Good that can afford it, so X-Theory causes this to fall under the Commerce Clause & it can be mandated

I don't agree with this "logic" based on some unknown theoretical reasons, but I suspect the arguments will be based along these lines. Since the punishment is with fines if you don't buy but can afford it, then maybe this gets the Feds past the finish line? The poor will be exempt, so they won't be forcing or fining someone to buy that does not have the money for it.

[wineboyrider]

The "commerce clause" was written to facilitate trade between the states. It has been used in more modern times to usurp the 10th amendment and also "illegalize" many things that before were not even imaginable. The prohibition of alcohol was at least done constitutionally, but we see what a success that was. The income tax was partly passed to make up the lost income from booze taxes. So we see it's really all about the money now isn't it? The constitution has been perverted over the years I assure, but it is a great document if you respect it. Slavery was legal too remember (Dread vs Scott)