Not easy to justify the purchase?

[SamTexas]

Trust me, I've been on 2 wheels a long damn time and tried every angle to justify the expense. That dog won't hunt but there are significant non-$$$ benefits that more than make up failure of the cost argument.

Whoa! I hope I'm misreading you here. Sounds like you're saying that a motorcycle is more expensive than a car, right? If so, that would be ridiculous, especially when the OP is talking about a small reliable 125cc Yamaha Rino.

[Ykick]

Trust me, I've been on 2 wheels a long damn time and tried every angle to justify the expense. That dog won't hunt but there are significant non-$$$ benefits that more than make up failure of the cost argument.

Whoa! I hope I'm misreading you here. Sounds like you're saying that a motorcycle is more expensive than a car, right? If so, that would be ridiculous, especially when the OP is talking about a small reliable 125cc Yamaha Rino.

Not saying that at all Sam. Just sharing motorcycle experience that fuel savings alone is not the only cost savings to compare with cars/trucks. Dunno shit about scooters and never said I did. Maybe they go for 30k miles on a set of $50 tires?

[wineboyrider]

I dunno much about scooter tires but every motorcycle I've ever owned only managed about 8-10k on a rear tire and the cheapest replacemen is/was always around $100. More like $250 if you go for Dunlops, Avons and have a shop mount it. Front tires generally last twice as long rear but that's still only 15-20k miles average for set of motorcycle tires which will cost $200-$400 to replace.

Some advantages of a large scooter over a motorcycle are: Tires and parts are cheaperhttp://www.scrappydogscooters.com/COMMON_PARTS.html
And my insurance is only $91 a year

[Ykick]

I dunno much about scooter tires but every motorcycle I've ever owned only managed about 8-10k on a rear tire and the cheapest replacemen is/was always around $100. More like $250 if you go for Dunlops, Avons and have a shop mount it. Front tires generally last twice as long rear but that's still only 15-20k miles average for set of motorcycle tires which will cost $200-$400 to replace.

Some advantages of a large scooter over a motorcycle are: Tires and parts are cheaperhttp://www.scrappydogscooters.com/COMMON_PARTS.html
And my insurance is only $91 a year

Cool, so they sell rubber for $50/set. Do they generally last more than 10k miles? No doubt, a person will save money compared to driving their car but I just like to keep things in perspective and temper expectations that seem to go way up with 50-70mpg fuel consumption.

[SamTexas]

... Dunno shit about scooters and never said I did.

... but I just like to keep things in perspective and temper expectations that seem to go way up with 50-70mpg fuel consumption.

May be you shouldn't. 50-70mpg is pathetic. 125cc scooters with manual or semi-manual transmission can get above 100mpg in real life. My 24 year old 250cc Suzuki GN250 with 5 speed manual transmission gets 75mpg in the summer.

[wineboyrider]

I dunno much about scooter tires but every motorcycle I've ever owned only managed about 8-10k on a rear tire and the cheapest replacemen is/was always around $100. More like $250 if you go for Dunlops, Avons and have a shop mount it. Front tires generally last twice as long rear but that's still only 15-20k miles average for set of motorcycle tires which will cost $200-$400 to replace.

Some advantages of a large scooter over a motorcycle are: Tires and parts are cheaperhttp://www.scrappydogscooters.com/COMMON_PARTS.html
And my insurance is only $91 a year

Cool, so they sell rubber for $50/set. Do they generally last more than 10k miles? No doubt, a person will save money compared to driving their car but I just like to keep things in perspective and temper expectations that seem to go way up with 50-70mpg fuel consumption.

I get about 7 thousand miles on the cheap rubber, but I switch the front to the back and throw away the rear tire as it is the first to wear. The scooter for me is only a commuting vehicle, but I can save mega miles on my cars by using the scooter and my small army of ebikes.. Got the girlfriend riding one of them now for community service..
And yes even my older honda 150 which is not fuel injected gets 85 mpg easily.

[Ykick]

I get about 7 thousand miles on the cheap rubber, but I switch the front to the back and throw away the rear tire as it is the first to wear. The scooter for me is only a commuting vehicle, but I can save mega miles on my cars by using the scooter and my small army of ebikes.. Got the girlfriend riding one of them now for community service..
And yes even my older honda 150 which is not fuel injected gets 85 mpg easily.

That's awesome! My input is skewed because of experience only with large m/c's and more highway miles than typical scooter riders. I envy those cheap tires, LOL...

[dogman]

Cost per mile varies greatly. Last tiny crackerbox car like I owned, a ford festiva was surely as low as a 25 cents a mile, but in 1985 dollars. Tires were a hundred bucks, for four 12 inch tires! That was a cheap car, but calling it a real car was a bit of a stretch.

You have done very well with that car. Got it quite cheap with low miles, and got to run it through the best lowest mainetnance years of it's life. But nicer cars do tend to run 40-75 cents per mile because of higher purchase prices. You wouldn't get a honda civic with 30k on it for 13 k.

Not so nice cars are always due for a starter, alternator, battery, two cv's,shocks or struts, a timing belt, a water pump, and a set of tires and brakes. All within the first 10,000 miles. That's why they get dumped right around 100,000 miles. So the piece of crap used medium sized car can easily end up costing the poor sucker buying it a buck a mile.

Ive done calculations on all the cars I've owned in the last 10 years or so, and the best all came out about 40-50 cents per mile. That's everything including the air in the tires if you paid for that. Gas, oil, insurance, purchase price, registration, antifreeze, tires, brakes, Cvs, timing belts, valve jobs, shocks, struts for the back hatch, seatcovers, car washes, and on and on and on. The 2000 ford focus, 1998 subaru forester, and 2004 ford focus all ended up costing the about the same six and a half thou per year for 15000 miles. Multiple cars made them last a bit longer, but the basic costs for two cars that ran for the household was still a good 12 thou most years, since we'd put about 25,000 miles of driving on various odometers per year.

Bear in mind, to get it down to 45 cents per mile, I did 90% of the service on these cars. The remaining 10% is stuff like a valve job or bearing replacements that requires a machine shop.

The one ton truck, driven as little as possible, was at least a buck a mile. Suprised it's not more. Buck a mile would not be unusual for large suv's or trucks. Used to be a lot cheaper, before tires were $250 to $350 a pop for a truck. Not anymore.

Do a really good, complete and honest accounting, and most people cannot believe they spend that much. Living closer to work and driving less than a thousand miles a month really helps with annual cost, but cost per mile remains what it is.

[cbr shadow]

Dogman, you bring up many good points. There are a lot of small expenses that aren't factored in normally. I still think I'm getting off cheap right now but that's probably because I haven't yet needed the timing chain, cvs, etc.. No major issues yet thankfully.
Also I've ridden motorcycles for 11 years now so no need for the safety class. I love motorcycles but I can't justify buying the "fun" ones (high powered sports bikes) because they seem to be a money pit.

[dumbass]

I was on my way to work this morning when I pulled to a stop next to a guy on a little scooter. It was a Yamaha Vino 125. I asked "what kind of mileage do you get on that thing?" - "100 miles per gallon" he replied with a smile. I looked at online reviews and it looks like he wasn't really exagerating. People are getting 80-100mph on those things. I know many of you are from Europe where riding one of these is not taboo, but here in the land of "Bigger is better" it's pretty nerdy to ride around on a little 125cc scooter, especially for a younger person like myself. I'm such a cheapass that I'm totally willing to deal w/ that though. So anyways I'm having trouble justifying getting one, even used, because of the amount of miles I'd need to put on it to make up in gas savings just to cover the price. Plus there's the registration, plates, insurance.. Let me know if I'm messing something up here...

My 2006 Scion XB is supposed to get 36mpg, but realistically I get 31mpg to/from work. The scooter is in ADDITION to this vehicle, can't replace it.

2005 Yamaha Vino (used) = $1600

Assume gas is $4.00 per gallon.

So I'd have to drive about 17,000 miles before the gas savings paid for the cost of the scooter.. That doesn't include insurance or registration. Is it that cut and dry? If I have to put 20k miles on this thing before I'm having any savings it's definitely not worth it. Thoughts?

I just noticed you live just down the street (not really but pretty close). I'm in Wayne, ILL.

I never tried to justify it but I have had a motor scooter and or cycle since 2008. First off I highly recommend you not buy anything smaller then a 250cc scooter or cycle. Just my opinion of course but the differece in mileage isn't worth the difference is size. And yes in this case size does matter.

I crashed my 250cc Roketa last Aug. Messed myself up pretty good doing it. While still in a leg and arm cast I went out and bought a replacement. I found a Cf Moto cycle (looks like a cycle but the drive train is like a scooter) on EBay. The listing was for local pickup only. It's a 2006 and had 600 miles on it. I paid $550. It wasn't running though. It took me 30 minutes and $15 to repair it.

Bob

[wineboyrider]

A 250cc scooter or motorcycle is necessary when you have a lot of interstate or freeway driving when the posted speed limit is 65 mph or higher, but I get by fine in traffic as the ride to the big city of Alamogordo, NM and back is roughly 30 miles round trip, but the highest posted speed is 60 mph

[cbr shadow]

Several have posted about ebikes being the best value transport, but as I'm building mine I'm starting to think it's not! Unless of course it completely replaces a car (not really possible in the Chicago area due to winters). For example:
KMX Trike: $700 (used)
HS3540 in 20" wheel: $400
Freewheel: $15
Cycle Analyst: $125
Throttle: $15
Torque Arms : $45
Battery + Charger + Controller + shipping from cellman = $1300
Tire/Tube: $35
Derailleur: $20

I'm probably forgetting a few things, but that's just the original purchase cost which is $2655. This doesn't count any of my time researching the site, installing, etc.. It's fun for me but I'm just saying it's not like I just went out and bought it. Point is that even if nothing fails on it I have to save 664 gallons of gas before the bike pays for itself (assuming electricity is 'free'), which in my car getting 31mpg avg means that I have to take the etrike 20,577 miles before it pays for itself in gas savings over the car.
This doesn't factor in that any miles on the bike saves the car from being driven/worn of course.

[dumbass]

A 250cc scooter or motorcycle is necessary when you have a lot of interstate or freeway driving when the posted speed limit is 65 mph or higher, but I get by fine in traffic as the ride to the big city of Alamogordo, NM and back is roughly 30 miles round trip, but the highest posted speed is 60 mph

I think we'll all have differing opinions about this. Personally, I prefer the ride, comfort handling and even safety of a larger bike. But as I said we all have a view piont.

I'm wondering what your coverage is for only $91 on your insurance.

Bob

[dumbass]

Several have posted about ebikes being the best value transport, but as I'm building mine I'm starting to think it's not! Unless of course it completely replaces a car (not really possible in the Chicago area due to winters).

I'm probably forgetting a few things, but that's just the original purchase cost which is $2655. This doesn't count any of my time researching the site, installing, etc.. It's fun for me but I'm just saying it's not like I just went out and bought it. Point is that even if nothing fails on it I have to save 664 gallons of gas before the bike pays for itself (assuming electricity is 'free'), which in my car getting 31mpg avg means that I have to take the etrike 20,577 miles before it pays for itself in gas savings over the car.
This doesn't factor in that any miles on the bike saves the car from being driven/worn of course.

Your points are all valid. There are different reasons for every ebike build. Personally, I would never consider an ebike as a replacement for a car. In fact I rarely use my bike on the roadway unless I'm going to or from the forest preserves. But a lot of people consider an ebike as a great replacement for a car. And they are also getting the exercise as well. Being that we ar both located in the Chicago land area I can't imagin ever considering riding a bike in our winters.

To your point even my $550 cycle I had to add $150 in title and plate plus $280 for good insurance. So if I just consider the cost of the bike at $550 I would have to ride 4262 mile before breaking even. But during that mileage I burned about 61 gals of gas or $244 again. So I guess you could add on another 2000+ miles I'd have to ride.

Bottom line is; if your only reason for having an ebike, scooter or cycle is to save money it can be difficult for some to justify the expense. But most of us also consider other things like the exercise and even just the enjoyment of the ride.

Bob

[Ykick]

Trivial bit of data but in NYC electricity costs about $0.29 cents per kWh. Not going into all the math but works out to $0.02 cents per mile for relatively mild 30A eBike. Chicago's probably not quite that high electrical product/delivery but I wouldn't be surprised if $0.20-25 cents/kWh? Most places safe to count on $0.01 cent/mile. Not a lot by gasoline comparison but when you ride electric 200-250 miles per month, you do notice it on the power bill.

I rode my GL1100 in Chicago for the mild winter '97-98. One 4F night was just about my "give up" point. Replacing a car is hard and so is replacing public transit in some cases. Only you know what you like and how your budget adds up...

[SamTexas]

Several have posted about ebikes being the best value transport, ...

Not me.

Why bother with the cost comparison between a small, reliable, used ICE scooter and a car? The scooter wins hand down and by a large margin.

The more interesting comparison is between the above scooter and an ebike. The scooter beats the ebike too.

Bottom line: If COST IS THE DETERMINING FACTOR, nothing beats a small, used and reliable scooter. That's practically any Honda, Suzuki or Yamaha with a 100 to 250cc 4-cycle engine.

[cbr shadow]

Several have posted about ebikes being the best value transport, but as I'm building mine I'm starting to think it's not! Unless of course it completely replaces a car (not really possible in the Chicago area due to winters).

I'm probably forgetting a few things, but that's just the original purchase cost which is $2655. This doesn't count any of my time researching the site, installing, etc.. It's fun for me but I'm just saying it's not like I just went out and bought it. Point is that even if nothing fails on it I have to save 664 gallons of gas before the bike pays for itself (assuming electricity is 'free'), which in my car getting 31mpg avg means that I have to take the etrike 20,577 miles before it pays for itself in gas savings over the car.
This doesn't factor in that any miles on the bike saves the car from being driven/worn of course.

Your points are all valid. There are different reasons for every ebike build. Personally, I would never consider an ebike as a replacement for a car. In fact I rarely use my bike on the roadway unless I'm going to or from the forest preserves. But a lot of people consider an ebike as a great replacement for a car. And they are also getting the exercise as well. Being that we ar both located in the Chicago land area I can't imagin ever considering riding a bike in our winters.

To your point even my $550 cycle I had to add $150 in title and plate plus $280 for good insurance. So if I just consider the cost of the bike at $550 I would have to ride 4262 mile before breaking even. But during that mileage I burned about 61 gals of gas or $244 again. So I guess you could add on another 2000+ miles I'd have to ride.

Bottom line is; if your only reason for having an ebike, scooter or cycle is to save money it can be difficult for some to justify the expense. But most of us also consider other things like the exercise and even just the enjoyment of the ride.

Bob

Bob, do your figures above factor in that you're replacing a car for those rides? Meaning, if you're getting 25mpg in your car and say 75mpg on your motorcycle, you're gaining 50mpg over the car, not 75mpg total.
After looking at your numbers I realized that your bike was ultra inexpensive, so that's why the miles to make up for the cost is so low!

[dumbass]

Actually, my calculatios was a quicky and not at all acurate. To be more acurate it should be based on the car @ 31mpg and the cycle @ 70mpg. The car would cost $129 per 1000 miles and the bike $57. A gain of $72 per 1000 miles driven. Based on $550 for the cycle it would take 7639 miles to pay it off. But again there are many other things to consider. For example; wear and tear on the car will lower resale value but on the bike I will likelymake a profit on it's eventual resale (even with 10,000 miles on it).

Bob

[MountainSufi]

If your're really worried about saving $, get a nice light, non-motorized road bike. You can ride it on bike paths that don't allow e-bikes, so you'll need it even with an ebike. It will pay for itself.

But life isn't all about $. Riding an ebike will set an example, and in non-direct ways help lower the cost of ebikes for EVERYONE. It's what should be done.

"Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race."
-- H.G. Wells

[nechaus]

I think you need a higher powered ebike...
Why not buy a crappy scooter and put a beast of a hub motor in it, 5kw continuous run 20kw on it

get yourself some serious charging equipment and bms.. fast charge in 20 mins.. mix it with solar and bring your cost down even more.
Or you could kill your brain cells at the gas station

My younger brother just got himself a nissan z370 or some crap.. its like 237 kw or something...
Secretly im building an ebike that will hopefully kick his ass up to 100 kmh Might need dual hpms
He was real happy about the power of the car until i said i want a 50kw ebike

[REdiculous]

237kw sure sounds like a lot, but if it's 30% efficient then you'd only get about 71kw to the ground....

...a 50kw ebike should slaughter that.

[veloman]

Trivial bit of data but in NYC electricity costs about $0.29 cents per kWh. Not going into all the math but works out to $0.02 cents per mile for relatively mild 30A eBike. Chicago's probably not quite that high electrical product/delivery but I wouldn't be surprised if $0.20-25 cents/kWh? Most places safe to count on $0.01 cent/mile. Not a lot by gasoline comparison but when you ride electric 200-250 miles per month, you do notice it on the power bill.

I rode my GL1100 in Chicago for the mild winter '97-98. One 4F night was just about my "give up" point. Replacing a car is hard and so is replacing public transit in some cases. Only you know what you like and how your budget adds up...

That's seems really expensive, when my car at 35mpg and $2 gas a while ago cost 6 cents per mile. An ebike should be wayyy cheap than 1/3rd the cost per mile of a car, even when gas was cheap.

At 20watt hour/mile it should be something like:
400watt/hr / .8 charger efficiency = 1/2 kwh for 20 miles. at 30 cents/kwh, that's 15cents/20mile or 1.33 cents per mile. But if you ride fast, 2 cents per mile could happen. The thing is, everywhere I've lived power is around 10-11 cents/kwh. So it's 1/3rd that cost.

[Nehmo]

remember a month or so ago when a biker hit a man and killed him in San Francisco. There were many hundreds of comments from people who hated people on bicycles having nothing to do with this incident at all.

First, please give us lazy readers a link (or at least some details to search for) to your story.

This is on a subject I intend to cover, that of most drivers disliking - correction, hating - bikes. The drivers perceive bikes as impediments to their object of getting to where they are going. They can't drive through a bike. They can't drive through a car either, but cars are acceptable because they are in a car. Furthermore, bikes are vulnerable, and it's a natural tendency to prey on the weak.

I offer a few stories in support.

• A few days ago, someone threw and hit me in the thigh with a filled water bottle on 10th ST N of Central in Kansas City, Kansas. I was way over on the right of a wide road.
• A few months ago, also in KC, KS, someone shot and hit my backpack with what I think was an air gun (an older 2-color car with a long triangle painted on the site). There were two shots, and a bystander witnessed them (he thought my tires had blown).
• Once, while I was riding on the extreme right of a wide street with no traffic and no parked cars, a car going in the opposite direction veered way over from their straight path to my side of the road, missing me by a couple of feet (almost a meter) while going by. This was a juvenile prank to scare me.
  I should note here that I don't have any personal enemies that would do these thing. However, this city, the Kansas City metro, is very bike unfriendly.
• I've been "pulled over" while on an ebike twice in the past 1.6 years for nothing. Once, totally for nothing, and once supposedly for not having enough lights (not true). The cops let me go after a name check, but the stop wasn't merited. If you consider miles traveled, this is a very high rate of harassment contrasted with driving a car.

In a civilized part of the world, like Boulder, Colorado, US or Amsterdam, The Netherlands, bikes are not so hated as here. But as dkw12002 pointed out, the typical American comment on a bike story shows the general attitude is against.

[John in CR]

Nehmo,

You need a much faster ebike, so you cross paths with far fewer cars, and the ones you do, look at you in amazement. Plus there's the added bonus of catching one after doing something stupid like that. If someone pulled a stunt like those with me, they will receive damage from the chain I use to lock my bike and if they're lucky the damage will be only to the car. Luckily I haven't run across such idiots here in about 20k miles. The most I've gotten is a hoot and holler from a car full of teenagers trying to startle me, to which I just respond with an EV grin and blast away leaving them in the dust.

I take it back, you should move some place nicer AND get a much faster ebike.


On topic, I get right at a penny per mile of electric consumption on my crazy power ebike, and my lower power ebikes get about the same, because cruising speeds are similar. The price of gas here is about $5.50/gal. My ebikes save a couple thousand real dollars a year, but that's just the raw dollars. The time they save me is worth drastically more than that, and the convenience and fun are priceless. While the purchase of a 2 wheel gasser is hard to justify, an ebike is easy.

Before anyone starts trying to pick it apart bringing up battery costs etc, the only valid comparison in my case is on variable costs alone, gas vs electricity. I'm not amortizing the cost of my car, or insurance, registration, inspection, repairs, etc. Those are all sunk costs. On the other side, because I got deals and DIY'd my batteries, none of which are totally worn out, my batteries are worth locally nearly what I have invested in them. That's because lithium batts simply aren't available here. Plus I could easily sell my ebikes at a profit, including recovery of the cost of failures or those still in the project queue. That means there's nothing to amortize. It's all a moot point anyway. Ebiking and ebuilding is my hobby, and it's the cheapest hobby I've ever had before considering what I save on gas, so there's real $ savings there too, which is added to my real dollar savings electricity vs gas.

John

[Ykick]

That's seems really expensive, when my car at 35mpg and $2 gas a while ago cost 6 cents per mile. An ebike should be wayyy cheap than 1/3rd the cost per mile of a car, even when gas was cheap.

At 20watt hour/mile it should be something like:
400watt/hr / .8 charger efficiency = 1/2 kwh for 20 miles. at 30 cents/kwh, that's 15cents/20mile or 1.33 cents per mile. But if you ride fast, 2 cents per mile could happen. The thing is, everywhere I've lived power is around 10-11 cents/kwh. So it's 1/3rd that cost.

Can't trust me, huh? I wanted to save myself the trouble but here goes:

My last ConEd bill is/was $58.96 for 184 kWh. So my post was incorrect - it's actually 32 cents per kWh. Of course, they hide it using Supply charges, Delivery Charges, Surcharges, SBC/RPS charges, sales tax, etc. Would you like to see the bill? Total electricity charges = $58.96, Electricity used = 184 kWh

My usual commute is almost exactly 8 miles round trip. My batteries need roughly 333Wh from the charger after a typical commute. My charger's connected to a Kill-A-Watt meter and measures almost exactly 500Wh per charge cycle. Basically using .5kWh from the AC outlet to power myself for 8 miles. 1/2 of a 32 cent kWh = 16 cents. 16 divide by 8 = 2 cents/mile.

Just because you may not have experienced insane electricity prices doesn't mean it's not true...