Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

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tomjasz
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by tomjasz » Aug 19, 2017 10:54 am

dogman dan wrote:I don't know, but make it a vented box otherwise its just a bigger can when it goes pop. I'm thinking about stuff like an ammo box, with a motorcycle like exhaust pipe on it. The idea is to let gasses cool before exiting the pipe.

FWIW, a contained battery such as a shark pack, or rack pack in aluminum box will pop the end off if it goes off, so that would work too, to prevent making a ---- of your battery.

Maybe a waste of weight, in the future no large batteries will be in my house. I'm going to the battery bunker in the yard. But I have thought some about what would happen if a battery fire happens while out riding. So the next custom bike I build will have metal battery boxes made from vented ammo cans at least. Buy me some time at least.
My 40MM ammo can with the waterproof seal removed makes a fine charging cabinet. Videos indicate it a decent way to somewhat safely charge with decent protection.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by DRMousseau » Aug 19, 2017 1:32 pm

Been watching this thread for a while,.... GUT WRENCHING!

Some think I'm jus overly concerned with batteries, but this example and many similar, plus my own personal experiences have certainly kept me alert and from harms way. That's not to say I've never blown a few in various manners, burst others into a disastrous mess, suffered minor burns, injuries or damages,.... but my concerns have likely kept me from such seriousness as you have experienced.

I now live in year around in a motorhome,... batteries of every sort are a major part of my life, jus as it is with others who may live a more conventional manner. My household storage bank is a major concern of mine that is monitored frequently on a daily basis, as well as the vehicle system,... essentials of my lifestyle and home. I'm extra careful to store other batteries safely and appropriately in my "home", and such storage can be very limiting in a motorhome.

Most concerning perhaps, are those of my computer, phone, other lithium based appliances, tools, and of course,... my e-bike. NOTHING is left to charge without close monitoring. NOTHING is left to run or charge overnight while I'm asleep! Still, I worry a bit of those electronics left "sleeping" and not truly powered off,.... so that means my phone and such are left on designated surfaces overnight. That's also where my e-bike battery rests,... right in constant view even if completely disconnected from anything. I have an outdoor outlet on my motorhome,... so bike battery and tool batteries are often set jus outside when charging, that's where theft becomes something more to worry of.

Overly concerned??? NO WAY!!!

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by tomjasz » Aug 19, 2017 4:29 pm

THANKS DOG!
This thread may have done more for safety than any other ever here. The honesty and disclosure is greatly appreciated. Houses, garages, and perhaps even lives will have been saved thanks to your help!

All the best!

T
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by dogman dan » Aug 21, 2017 7:20 am

FWIW, we replaced the ford focus wagon with a huge van. Fold down seats in back for a nice bed. First thing I bought for it was a hitch mount platform, so one bike, tiny generator, tiny porta potty, and ammo can of lipo can all be outside.

I keep looking at my two remaining batteries, 48v 10 ah lipo, and tinking, well, is today the day?

Anyway if we get a trailer to tow behind the van, or a motor home, that rack will go on it to keep that stuff outside.

Inside, I still have the usual, two laptops, two phones, two ipods. Not as worried about those simply because of size. But the power tool batteries are in a shed up at the burnt house, or if here, in the attached laundry room.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by markz » Aug 22, 2017 12:27 am

Vans are the way to go when traveling, bike on rack on the hitch mount covers the license plate, something to keep in mind. Been noticing a lot of partially obstructed license plates lately. A few handful you cant even tell what the digits are.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by dogman dan » Aug 22, 2017 5:59 am

This one actually has a pretty high mounted plate, so that will be no problem. Not like a truck bumper mount.

The van has been really great for traveling with the dogs, what we really use it for. Subaru's ( our forester) make a great dog car, but once one St Bernard gets in that car, the other does not want to cram in there.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by The fingers » Aug 22, 2017 12:43 pm

Have vacationed in a van with a SB to Big Sur back in the early 70s. :D
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by wineboyrider » Aug 27, 2017 9:47 pm

markz wrote:Vans are the way to go when traveling, bike on rack on the hitch mount covers the license plate, something to keep in mind. Been noticing a lot of partially obstructed license plates lately. A few handful you cant even tell what the digits are.
Pretty normal here in NM hell people put license plates in their windows. Better yet even throw mud on it..LOL
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by wineboyrider » Aug 27, 2017 9:49 pm

tomjasz wrote:
dogman dan wrote:I don't know, but make it a vented box otherwise its just a bigger can when it goes pop. I'm thinking about stuff like an ammo box, with a motorcycle like exhaust pipe on it. The idea is to let gasses cool before exiting the pipe.

FWIW, a contained battery such as a shark pack, or rack pack in aluminum box will pop the end off if it goes off, so that would work too, to prevent making a ---- of your battery.

Maybe a waste of weight, in the future no large batteries will be in my house. I'm going to the battery bunker in the yard. But I have thought some about what would happen if a battery fire happens while out riding. So the next custom bike I build will have metal battery boxes made from vented ammo cans at least. Buy me some time at least.
My 40MM ammo can with the waterproof seal removed makes a fine charging cabinet. Videos indicate it a decent way to somewhat safely charge with decent protection.
Ammo cans are great ways to deal with lipo! Better to keep it away from other fiery stuff.
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by markz » Aug 28, 2017 2:51 am

Ammo cases are cheap, would be cool to have one ammo case fit snuggly in a slightly bigger one kinda like them Russian Dolls.

Double the protection!

When I went to Princess Auto (Canada's Harbor Freight) There were various sizes, and some had some weight to them! I picked up a couple plastic ones for pannier bag style storage on bike. Cabela's had a bigger one that is sufficient, just wished it was deeper. May end up just making one out of wood, and to make it fire proof just bolting on some steel. No welder needed.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by tomjasz » Aug 28, 2017 1:00 pm

I found a 40MM that will actually hold two triangle packs and still has room! midway USA does specials often.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by dogman dan » Aug 29, 2017 5:22 am

FWIW, you can buy new metal ammo cans at Walmart in my part of the USA.

Actually framing the roof on my new garage today, Finally some progress in the putting it back direction.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by tomjasz » Aug 29, 2017 11:34 am

dogman dan wrote:FWIW, you can buy new metal ammo cans at Walmart in my part of the USA.
Typically small arms or rifle cans. 20MM are a bit harder to find and so nice to have the size, to actually hold big packs and multiple packs.

Thought mine was a 40mm but it is a 20MM 17-1/8" x 7-3/8" x 14 the capacity is handy on a day like today, preparing for a trip and charging 2 triangles and a dolphin at the same time all in the can.

https://www.midwayusa.com/military-surp ... ?cid=23390

I've learned from you that saving a few bucks today could be very expensive down the line! Again, you've helped many more than you may ever realize.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by speedmd » Aug 29, 2017 11:41 am

Great to hear your in a rebuild mode dan. May the sun ( not too hot ) shine upon the efforts and winds help lift the rafters!

Like the idea on the ammo cans as battery boxes on the bike as well. Would be cool if a custom made bike frame could rely on them for a structural-removable (for service) component. It could add as much or more structural integrity as would be needed to add due to the increase in weight. Self contained fire box much like what tesla did. You could style it like a troop vehicle.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by amberwolf » Aug 29, 2017 2:32 pm

My CrazyBike2 is kinda like that with the 50cal box in the middle.

Image
Last edited by amberwolf on Aug 30, 2017 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by speedmd » Aug 29, 2017 3:09 pm

Where is the " Like " Icon on es ? :lol:

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by Dauntless » Aug 29, 2017 10:25 pm

People questions Dan's handling of the battery, I'll just say the scariest thing in the thread is that it happened to someone like Dan. Its not encouraging me to dive in with lithium.
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by dogman dan » Aug 30, 2017 6:51 am

The lesson I learned, is the " safe kind" might not be.

But uhh,, what made me think the cheap ass 18650 pack had cells you could trust in it? Duhh. More and more, I just think that pack had to have had a defect cell in it, or one that went bad, shorting the whole parallel string to thermal runaway.

The ammo cans at Walmart are the 50 cal size ones, but not military. What I wanted to say was somebody else is making metal ones. Previously I had seen similar size plastic cans at harbor freight, but not metal.

I still hold out for a better price myself, under 10 bucks, at a flea market or garage sale. But if this thread makes you think about it, 20 bucks for a metal can around your battery might be priceless! I might not have been saved by one, but I might have had more time to deal with that battery fire before the motorcycle and 4 gallons of gas was on fire in my house.

Other metal might be just as effective in buying you a bit of time, like a tool or tackle box. You cant contain that fire, but if you can buy some time, it might make a big difference. As well as protecting it,,,, OUTSIDE THE HOUSE.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by 2old » Aug 30, 2017 12:58 pm

Lucky for me there's an Army-Navy surplus store around the corner, so real, albeit used ones are available. Hope this doesn't derail the thread, but what type of extinguisher is appropriate for Li fires (other than the obvious smother it)?

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by fechter » Aug 30, 2017 3:06 pm

Here's a comparison of common (larger) ammo can sizes. From what I can tell from watching lithium battery fire videos, this type of can should contain the pack and prevent flames from spreading. It will spew a lot of stinky, toxic smoke, but at least no fire. I'd love to see a more controlled test. I have some old Lipo batteries that could be used for testing.
Ammo Can Sizes.gif
Ammo Can Sizes.gif (148.94 KiB) Viewed 478 times
If a pack catches on fire, it's not really a "lithium fire", its more of a solvent fire. Any B,C rated extinguishers would be applicable but probably won't be able to keep the fire out for more than a few seconds. Imaging a can full of gasoline with a red hot igniter immersed in it. You can blow out the flames but it will immediately re-ignite. Just water to cool things down might be the most effective. Once all the cells have discharged, no more red hot igniter, so it goes out.

Sand works to smother the flames and won't melt.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by nutnspecial » Aug 30, 2017 4:39 pm

Am I looking at this wrong?

Lithium batteries require the respect of gasoline. They are almost no more mysterious-

-physical damage to the cell = possible destructive/runaway discharge
-degraded anode / cathode = possible destructive/runaway discharge
-shit bms = same


Unless using an axe or drill on a large or fully charged pack that's tightly enclosed, it's almost 100% you'll see the possibility of fire during charge or discharge, but mostly charge, yes?

So knowing the condition of your cells and keeping the pack from damage (like a gas tank) are the first tier of 'respect', and then personally monitoring during charge/discharge? With no cheap 'bms' circuitry to go sideways during periods of unuse, and wires properly done and protected (the 'gas' lines), I bet you'd be more likely to get hit by a bus on a deserted island than have a fire?

At least as likely for your car gas tank to 'spontaneously' combust? I don't quite yet bet a lithium fire against either though, because they are bad little bitches and deserve the same trust lol. (no offense ladies :wink: )

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by Dauntless » Aug 30, 2017 10:26 pm

"Almost noore mysterious?" I feel much safer in handling gas. And gas really doesn't explode. How often in the history of America has someone parked their car in the garage at night and it suddenly decides to burn the house down?

Yeah, Dan, I look for people like you to push the envelope FOR me. But I still might burn my house down doing something you succeeded with. Lithium is a dangerous stepping stone, its not a solution in itself.
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by speedmd » Aug 31, 2017 8:35 am

car in the garage at night and it suddenly decides to burn the house down?
just potentially 8.7 million times :roll: http://articles.latimes.com/1996-04-26/ ... d-vehicles

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by Jon NCal » Aug 31, 2017 9:58 am

In the youtube video of ammo can testing, they conclude it is better to remove the lid gasket so that the it's vented and doesn't blow the lid off.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » Aug 31, 2017 10:11 am

Sorry for what happened to you Dogman,

I wonder, why you people are using those types of lithium battery chemistries? Why not LiFePo4, which is a lot safer. Ok, power density is a bit lower, but for a small 48V 20Ah battery it wouldn't make such a difference. I'm curious to know why, is there some reason I didn't account for?

During the pasts weeks I've heard about quite a lot of lithium batteries fires among my friends and the news in China. Before that, it was quite rare, so I'm wondering if by chance all those cells are not coming from the same manufacturer.

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