Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by fechter » Aug 31, 2017 11:51 am

Jon NCal wrote:In the youtube video of ammo can testing, they conclude it is better to remove the lid gasket so that the it's vented and doesn't blow the lid off.
Can you give a link for that?

If the lid latch was springy, it could open to vent and snap shut again.
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by Jon NCal » Aug 31, 2017 12:44 pm


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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by amberwolf » Sep 01, 2017 2:55 am

Another option is to notch it where the wires exit, like I did, to prevent build up of gases but also contain the majority of any fire. This is the 7.62 case:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 14&t=36811
but i did a similar single-vent/cable-exit on the 50cal can.

It's still untested (thankfully) but I also still have some old LiPos that are toast that I intend to use to test it with.

I've been waiting until I had temperature instrumentation i could sacrifice to a test, to monitor the inside and outside of the case in different areas.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by tomjasz » Sep 01, 2017 9:27 am

Jon NCal wrote:I think this is the one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnNId0mDnBo
Yes, I modeled my can after it. Once I have a couple of packs on the way out, probably next season, I'll test it. I feel fairly confident from my firefighting training as a sailor and life experience that I'm reasonably well protected. With the fire cabinet and charging ammo can I feel reasonably protected. Unfortunately the smoke and fumes remain an issue unsolved.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by fechter » Sep 01, 2017 10:09 am

Jon NCal wrote:I think this is the one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnNId0mDnBo
Thanks! that was excellent.

I think the reason the can with the gasket intact wasn't so good is the jet of hot gasses was directed downward, toward the floor, like a nozzle. With a larger vent opening (no gasket), there is less nozzle effect. Seems like whatever that stream of gasses hits gets scorched. I guess what would be really good is to have an upward aiming vent connected to a metal hose that leads outdoors.
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by tomjasz » Sep 01, 2017 10:40 am

fechter wrote:I guess what would be really good is to have an upward aiming vent connected to a metal hose that leads outdoors.
Hmmm....interesting idea for my cabinet. It's next to an old coal door to the basement. I wonder how hot the gasses would be on the outside escaping...I'd hate to vet and catch the exterior on fire. Living in frigid winters adds another PIA dimension to battery management.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by Dauntless » Sep 01, 2017 5:09 pm

speedmd wrote:
car in the garage at night and it suddenly decides to burn the house down?
just potentially 8.7 million times :roll: http://articles.latimes.com/1996-04-26/ ... d-vehicles
Um, NOOOOO, there were not 8.7 million, it was questioned if 1,100 were real. Find a single one that burned a house. Of just around 4,000 EV1's only on the road a short time, was it 16 burned houses? Of how many fires reported? That's murky. That's WITHOUT lithium.

If you don't want to look at this in the real world, you're a distraction in the discussion.
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by nutnspecial » Sep 01, 2017 7:57 pm

I guess what would be really good is to have an upward aiming vent connected to a metal hose that leads outdoors.
If I was worried about it I'd just have a 'hood' customized from 'somthing or the other' ducted to an attic fan that would be temp activated down at the storage container. I did one for painting welding and epoxy fumes in my shop that works nice. But unless you have alot of lithium, Or ???, I just don't see the need for all this. Know what condition your cells are for time you are gonna be away from them. If it's months then don't trust a bms, and I'm thinking a fridge is as good as anything. Really paranoid for a couple months away from a trusted battery, I'd mod the fridge to auto vent on the temp rise of combustion or maybe just a simple smoke detector. Never 'trust' a charging (or discharging) battery which means don't use full capacity but charge @ max capacity in order to be present for it. Till we have better control and safety mech and procedures, and/or that golden goose (or whatever they say) of chemistry lol.
Um, NOOOOO, there were not 8.7 million, it was questioned if 1,100 were real. Find a single one that burned a house. Of just around 4,000 EV1's only on the road a short time, was it 16 burned houses? Of how many fires reported? That's murky. That's WITHOUT lithium.

If you don't want to look at this in the real world, you're a distraction in the discussion.
To the point and direct. I like that even when I don't agree. Smiley face. If only I could see links like The Beastie provides with his arguments. Either way I agree the data from your side and your stance is much more likely.
BUT with DIY bikes or (DIY anything) it's likely more user error in trusting pcb bms's and the like? Lithium is not magical - it's just a bitch when mistreated, including misdirection of it's energy.
And pertaining directly to 'that' argument, cars are another story and should be as damn foolproof as ice (don't stuff a burning rag into the gastank, don't over rev w/o limiter, and don't drive into a pylon lol. Of course keep fuel system in good condition (as well as electrical. Which is most likely also where most dormant ice cars fires get their ignition)


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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by markz » Sep 02, 2017 2:46 am

That is a ton of smoke coming out of the ammo box with no seal on it.
Should set off the smoke alarm pretty darn quickly, if you haven't already placed one above the ammo box itself.

The sand seemed like a logical idea, no way to have the sand help with the ammo box with no seal.
A rational expansion would be to double box it and try the outter box sealed, and test it out, which would increase the pressure inside the outter box. Then try venting the hot smoke safely.

I am definately buying some very large ammo boxes now.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by speedmd » Sep 02, 2017 7:57 am

With the seal there is little to no black smoke (larger smoke particles) but the explosion risk. Wonder if some porous metal filter- breather type inserts would be enough to relieve that risk and also help control the dirty burn. Regardless, I am thinking a doubled up sheet rock shop enclosure is called for to keep my stuff in with larger li batteries and in the barn only-away from the house.
Last edited by speedmd on Sep 02, 2017 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by dustNbone » Sep 02, 2017 4:02 pm

+1 on the double sheet rock for fire containment. With proper fire tape/mud, and no overlapping seams it's actually a very effective method of preventing spread.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by Dauntless » Sep 04, 2017 1:42 pm

speedmd wrote:More on fords! While you were napping!
So, you've selected distraction, then. Probably a good choice, since you can at least succeed at that.
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by fechter » Sep 05, 2017 9:47 am

speedmd wrote:With the seal there is little to no black smoke (larger smoke particles) but the explosion risk. Wonder if some porous metal filter- breather type inserts would be enough to relieve that risk and also help control the dirty burn. Regardless, I am thinking a doubled up sheet rock shop enclosure is called for to keep my stuff in with larger li batteries and in the barn only-away from the house.
My thought was a spring-loaded flapper vent. It would spring open to release large volumes of gas, then spring shut when the pressure drops. With an ammo can, this could be done by replacing the latch loop with a springy one.
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by speedmd » Sep 05, 2017 10:14 am

A labyrinth of sorts may keep flames captive, but if it blows open much they will not be kept captive. Smoke is another issue and certainly dangerous. These grommets caught my attention and may solve the explosion risk. Not sure how much flame pressure they would hold back.

Image

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by dogman dan » Oct 21, 2017 5:36 am

Finally, my house reconstruction nears completion. Yesterday they painted the interior of the house. All that is left inside is install new kitchen cabinets, and the sparkies trim out the house, installing the sockets, light fixtures, switches.

Outside, still stucco on the new garage, and exterior trim that is waiting on a backordered item. Right now 8 months since the fire. The job is close to on budget, so the insurance settlement should be enough.

Made out like bandits on the stuff in the garage that burned up. That was all stuff bought on the cheap at garage sales, or old and worn stuff. Paid out at about 75% of retail new value. :P So for example, swim fins bought for $5 at a garage sale, paid out $15, and if we actually bought things, we got new ones and the insurance paid out the full retail cost.

It was like having a garage sale, but instead of raising $2000 for all our garage stuff, it paid out $30,000. Still out about $7,000 because the car and motorcycle were not covered, but clearly, still ahead. Spent several thou of that extra money for upgrades to the house like fully insulating the garage, and new interior doors, replacing the burned car with a van, and paying off the last bit of mortgage on the house, and the Subaru. All that took another 7 thou or so. Leaving about $15,000.

When we move back in in about two weeks, it will be much like the house is brand new, no mortgage, no car payments, and both of us retired now. 8) 8) 8)

I'm not even going to say that it was worth it. The last 9 months has been pure hell, particularly because the house the insurance rented us was not good for my dogs, and the best fire reconstruction contractor in the area is a jackass. Lots of stress, tons of lost sleep and worry.

But on the other hand, our retirement plan had us debt free in two years, and plans to spend a lot of money remodeling the house. Now we are there, with the house like new, right now. No need for me to work two more years now. :D

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by Hwy89 » Oct 21, 2017 9:49 am

So glad to hear that this ordeal is finally almost over for you. May you have many years of enjoyment in your "new" place. I resolve to quit complaining about how much I spend on home insurance.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by liveforphysics » Oct 21, 2017 4:20 pm

Glad it turned out so well Dogman!
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by wineboyrider » Oct 21, 2017 8:24 pm

Glad to hear you are getting back to normal!
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by markz » Oct 21, 2017 8:32 pm

What are you going to buy now to replace them items in the garage. You gunna upgrade anything, perhaps a Grin Tech Satiator, or an iCharger, Adaptto controller with all the goodies, upgrade your motor.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by wineboyrider » Oct 21, 2017 8:36 pm

markz wrote:What are you going to buy now to replace them items in the garage. You gunna upgrade anything, perhaps a Grin Tech Satiator, or an iCharger, Adaptto controller with all the goodies, upgrade your motor.
LOL . Do you still get free stuff from Jason Dogman?
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by dogman dan » Oct 22, 2017 6:19 am

I'm no longer an E-Bikekit employee, so nothing free expected from Jason.

He was extremely generous with my last paycheck, which I never got for quitting an employer before. Sure, bonuses for good work plenty of times in the past, but never a quitting bonus. Jason paid me enough to pay off my current charge card debt, allowing me to retire comfortably. I quit because of the stress of the whole thing made me too tired out and stupid to continue working. I still have a great deal of problems with my chronic post viral fatigue, even though I can seem perfectly normal for a week here, or there. The off weeks though, I was getting pretty dumb since the fire.

I mentioned having some money left at the end of this process, but its not in our account yet, hence a short term shortage that had me continuing to work, even when I was pretty useless since the fire. I have to admit, very hard to sell e bikes when one burned my house down. Jason should have fired me last March.

Once the final insurance work is done, we will get a final payment from the insurance company, that can then fund some more replacement of the burned stuff. Most of what we will replace has been done, I bought new tools right away because I was needing them immediately, and we replaced my wifes pottery studio equipment, and are just about to replace the washer and dryer. We will then have a chunk of cash that we can use for whatever we want, replacing things, or getting other new things. When the fire happened, we were half way through the bathroom remodel, so that is first on the list, the new shower. We might replace some more of the doors, or add additional new kitchen cabinets. Part of the house exterior was not fire damaged, so we will have to buy the paint for part of the house, to have it all fresh painted.

As for e bike shit, I did lose 75% of my batteries, one bike, and a lot of the chargers and controllers, but most of the bike stuff was in an outbuilding. I was left with a pile of motors, the beach cruiser and its trailer, and two off road e bikes. For battery, I had my lipos in a bunker outside, so 48v 20 ah did not burn. Lost the charger though, so I reconfigured to 18s 15 ah to use a 10 amps bulk charger I had laying around. If I stick to 18s, I have a nice fast charger for it now, and still have RC chargers, and some 36v stuff.

I'd like to get two satiators, and go touring with those. But I'd like my scooter back more. That 400cc Yamaha is what I really want back. It was costing me per mile, 11 cents. E bikes have always cost me 25-35 cents a mile, depending on how quick I kill batteries, or they go off.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by fechter » Oct 22, 2017 7:30 pm

Glad you're seeing some closure there.

Are you going to build a new ebike?
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by wineboyrider » Oct 22, 2017 9:02 pm

dogman dan wrote:I'm no longer an E-Bikekit employee, so nothing free expected from Jason.

He was extremely generous with my last paycheck, which I never got for quitting an employer before. Sure, bonuses for good work plenty of times in the past, but never a quitting bonus. Jason paid me enough to pay off my current charge card debt, allowing me to retire comfortably. I quit because of the stress of the whole thing made me too tired out and stupid to continue working. I still have a great deal of problems with my chronic post viral fatigue, even though I can seem perfectly normal for a week here, or there. The off weeks though, I was getting pretty dumb since the fire.

I mentioned having some money left at the end of this process, but its not in our account yet, hence a short term shortage that had me continuing to work, even when I was pretty useless since the fire. I have to admit, very hard to sell e bikes when one burned my house down. Jason should have fired me last March.

Once the final insurance work is done, we will get a final payment from the insurance company, that can then fund some more replacement of the burned stuff. Most of what we will replace has been done, I bought new tools right away because I was needing them immediately, and we replaced my wifes pottery studio equipment, and are just about to replace the washer and dryer. We will then have a chunk of cash that we can use for whatever we want, replacing things, or getting other new things. When the fire happened, we were half way through the bathroom remodel, so that is first on the list, the new shower. We might replace some more of the doors, or add additional new kitchen cabinets. Part of the house exterior was not fire damaged, so we will have to buy the paint for part of the house, to have it all fresh painted.

As for e bike shit, I did lose 75% of my batteries, one bike, and a lot of the chargers and controllers, but most of the bike stuff was in an outbuilding. I was left with a pile of motors, the beach cruiser and its trailer, and two off road e bikes. For battery, I had my lipos in a bunker outside, so 48v 20 ah did not burn. Lost the charger though, so I reconfigured to 18s 15 ah to use a 10 amps bulk charger I had laying around. If I stick to 18s, I have a nice fast charger for it now, and still have RC chargers, and some 36v stuff.

I'd like to get two satiators, and go touring with those. But I'd like my scooter back more. That 400cc Yamaha is what I really want back. It was costing me per mile, 11 cents. E bikes have always cost me 25-35 cents a mile, depending on how quick I kill batteries, or they go off.
That was a nice scooter! I have a Honda Shadow 1100 now and love rriding it. Not sure how much per mile it costs, but know the insurance is cheap!
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by dogman dan » Oct 23, 2017 6:13 am

NICE Wineboy! Gotta be way cheaper than a good used car. My scoot insurance was $100 a year but it did not cover fire, theft, or a laydown.

I have also looked some at those Harley style Japanese bikes. You can get them dirt cheap compared to a Harley. Get a good armored jacket if you don't have one yet. Laydowns happen, even though you are sure you wont. Those skid pads in the jacket are priceless, and now the temps are perfect for it.

But gay looking or not, I really liked the fairings on the scoot. I could ride through a hard rain in Cloudcroft, and remain amazingly dry and comfortable, with some rain gear of course. But you could clearly see the guy on the non faired bikes suffering while I was actually bone dry unless it rained like hell. They'd be in soaked boots, I'd be in dry tennis shoes.

New e bike, well, I'm sure I'll still want to weld up something bizarre, once I get bored again in the winter. But sinking a lot of cash into e bikes, no. I want my scooter back. Plenty of them for sale for cheap, particularly in Phoenix. Good excuse to pay Amberwolf a visit, to pick one up.

Also, I still have 3 e bikes, piles of hub motors, etc around. At most, I'll buy a few lipos, and a controller in the next year or so.

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