Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

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fechter
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by fechter » May 05, 2017 10:54 am

Hillhater wrote:Remember, these battery fires are self sustaining chemical reactions, not conventional oxygen/air supported fuel fire.
...which means that you can box it in, smother it with foam, sand, water, etc...but you cannot stop it burning !
So you will still have heat, gasses, smoke, etc to deal with.
I don't think that is totally true. The initial 'vent with flame' has its own oxygen, but that only lasts for milliseconds. After that, it is a solvent fire with electric heating to boil the solvent. I have seen several videos of burning packs where the enclosure was metal and all you get is a ton of smoke billowing out, but no flames. The solvent vapor can ignite outside the pack but that doesn't seem to happen all the time. With a plastic enclosure, you don't have a chance once it goes off. The "Lipo Sack" is another example of how this works. Check videos for those.
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by markz » May 05, 2017 7:21 pm

I was just thinking that, encasing it in metal is a good idea.
Like for storage, an old bbq shell, then go to the metal shop and buy some steel plate to weld up with a friends welder, or a diy garage, or Hertz Rental. Just be sure to latch the bbq so the top doesnt fly off. And figure out a top access point for the metal box fab.

Perhaps a better idea then buying unknown packs, is to build your own pack from a known reputable source of cells. Do the same for a BMS as well. Perhaps dont encase the cells in high heat epoxy, but maybe make a battery pack box encased in fireproof material. Maybe like a metal mesh high heat epoxy, then some reasonable metal box, perhaps a little thicker then an ammo can.

Just installed a smoke alarm above mine. Next up is an old bbq case, with a fabricated steel box inside, both latched to keep them from opening.

I am still thinking of how to make a pack that is flame proof yet still somewhat light. I need to ponder it some more.
My Townie has the batteries on the sides of the back rack. But my other ebike has the batteries on the ladies towntube. So weight isnt as much affected. Maybe too I need to spend a bit on higher capacity cells, like 3Ah or 3.5Ah cells, I read those are a breeze to tab weld. Then you know the quality of your own pack because you built it.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by dogman dan » May 06, 2017 6:52 am

Metal box with vents is how I did, and still do, store the lipo. The hope is that it does not blev, or shoot flames out the vent holes. Hot, but not actually burning gas might keep it from igniting anything near by.

Never tested though, it might just blev anyway.

Might not be needed now though, since no big batteries will ever be in my garage or house again.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by cwah » May 06, 2017 7:04 am

tomjasz wrote:
cwah wrote:Ah damm shit! That's why i only get branded 18650.

What bms model do you use?
FFS who has any data on brands?
I've been using the ncr18650pf and I know they are fairly safe. They've been through all sort of pain:
- due to abrasion (i didn't see) there was a hole on one of my cell. I only noticed that when I've seen a significant voltage drop due to one cell draging all the serie down
- water and rust have covered many of my cells with no issues
- for some reasons, I've lost another series of cell. I noticed it through voltage drop.
- i've never used a bms and didn't balance my pack in almost 2 years

Now it's time for me to renew my pack. But considering the level of abuse I'd say it's much safer than no name chinese manufacturer that will cut on quality to decrease cost.

My next step is to get a bluetooth bms (either neptune lite or the new one on bmsbattery) and I should have a pretty much good view of my battery health

That is what you should do dogman. Get good branded battery such as panasonic 18650 and a bluetooth bms so you know when a string is approching the danger zone
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by Cowardlyduck » May 06, 2017 7:09 am

My sympathies Dogman. It sure sounds like a totally sucky situation to have gone through/be in.

I have to ask though....do you think this fire would have turned out any differently if you had a smoke alarm immediately above the bike?

I am currently forced to charge and store my recumbent commuter in my laundry, inside my house. I recently just built and installed an 18650 pack inside the aluminium frame.
I have several smoke alarms directly above the bike as well as a fire blanket on the wall, and fire extinguisher right next to it. The cells are known genuine Sanyo GA 3.5AH and I do not use a BMS, but manually check balance myself. SO...I feel pretty confident about my situation, but what happened to you has me a little concerned, hence the question, how would this have turned out if a smoke alarm went off with the initial fire?

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by cwah » May 06, 2017 7:12 am

I'd say the worst combination would be:
- no continuous pack voltage visibility
- no continuous pack serie voltage sag and voltage difference visibility
- usage of no name batteries...
- poor 18650 assemblage without necessary precaution against vibrations. The ready made 18650 pack are often soldered (damage on cells) without chaffing protection
- no name cheap bms that may or may not be working properly

I make sure I address all these points for my battery so it is much safer as I also charge indoor
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by markz » May 06, 2017 12:56 pm

I plan to buy new cells in the 3Ah club from a reputable seller and use my tab welder, then I know exactly how my pack was built. Places like NKON also have the option to get tabs welded onto the cell but its a little pricey.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by Ykick » May 06, 2017 7:30 pm

Wondered what happened with you Dan. Glad y’all got out without more injury than PTSD and all the crazy shit work of putting lives back together. So sorry brother….

I guess the industry needs this sort of thing to figure out the course of the future? I’m beginning to believe “isolation” during charge is probably the best method to prevent loss of a dwelling and perhaps lives?

I’m talking concrete bunker type of shed/garage to park/charge EV’s or at least the battery pack. If it goes off, it can’t spread to other areas of a home…
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by cwah » May 06, 2017 8:10 pm

Ykick wrote:Wondered what happened with you Dan. Glad y’all got out without more injury than PTSD and all the crazy shit work of putting lives back together. So sorry brother….

I guess the industry needs this sort of thing to figure out the course of the future? I’m beginning to believe “isolation” during charge is probably the best method to prevent loss of a dwelling and perhaps lives?

I’m talking concrete bunker type of shed/garage to park/charge EV’s or at least the battery pack. If it goes off, it can’t spread to other areas of a home…
we shouldn't charge in a bunker... battery pack should be made SAFER. Almost everyone on earth has constantly a lithium battery in their pocket and charge it at home with very limited pb. Risk of our pack should go down to this level.

I think that's why Samsung stopped selling phone with replaceable battery as the cheap ones were likely to trigger fire
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by tomjasz » May 06, 2017 9:19 pm

dogman dan wrote:Metal box with vents is how I did, and still do, store the lipo. The hope is that it does not blev, or shoot flames out the vent holes. Hot, but not actually burning gas might keep it from igniting anything near by.

Never tested though, it might just blev anyway.

Might not be needed now though, since no big batteries will ever be in my garage or house again.
i just watched a video of a steel ammo box, latched, with waterproof gasket removed, several larger lipo packs inside. No flames, just lots of smoke. So thanks to you there now a screen vented flammables cabinet in my basement with smoke and temperature alarms. I'm pretty confident tthat the worst outcome is smoke damage. Next step a automatic venting system. In Minnesota its to hot or to cold to charge outdoors most of the year. It does take some of the fun out...
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by Ykick » May 06, 2017 10:05 pm

cwah wrote:we shouldn't charge in a bunker... battery pack should be made SAFER. Almost everyone on earth has constantly a lithium battery in their pocket and charge it at home with very limited pb. Risk of our pack should go down to this level.

I think that's why Samsung stopped selling phone with replaceable battery as the cheap ones were likely to trigger fire
PERFECT world, sure. But the scale of a phone battery pack doesn’t come close to the scale of an EV pack. If fire-resistant charging locations aren’t a viable opportunity for improvement, what is?

I feel making EV packs SAFER will likely involve EVERY viable improvement/technique including how/where they’re charged, stored, secured, monitored and maintained.

VERY serious stuff and little or NO room for errors.
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by Eskimo » May 07, 2017 11:43 am

Bloody hell :cry: 12 years now with stack of lipos sitting on my living room table, knock knock.
Cars do burn too though without warning. We have large garage right under our seven story building, and couple years ago one old museum age Volkswagen there suddenly lighted up, when owner started it. Luckily he didn"t panic and drove his car immediately flat out out of the large garage full of cars. When he got it out on the street it was on full flames and owner jumped out, leaving the car middle of the city street burning. Without his courage it could have been bad situation, car burning like a torch right under the high story city building.
Later they found out that some fuel pipe had disconnected or ruptured when he started it, and distibutor ignited the gas.
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by dogman dan » May 08, 2017 6:05 am

FWIW,, I had my truck burn in 1977. Fortunately, all steel vehicles then, so only wiring burned.

So this was my second battery fire, the first one was a short on a 12v.

While all this talk about a better battery is great,, the lesson I really learned is don't park that thing, on charge or not, crammed in with so much flammable shit.

When I got out the door dressed, and firemen coming, I was thinking I could try to help put it out. What made the fire too big to do that, was the huge chunk of foam seat on the motorcycle on fire, and the coats on the wall hook. By then, it was ready to belch flames out the garage door much farther than a garden hose can spray. Id have roasted myself again if I tried to do anything about the fire. (yes,, in addition to the truck, I once set myself on fire pretty good)

Compared to those burning items, the bike fire was relatively small.

Wouldn't have mattered one bit what started it,, the bike, the coats on the wall, the motorcycle, the car, all almost touching each other.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by tomjasz » May 08, 2017 4:20 pm

cwah wrote:
we shouldn't charge in a bunker...
Shouldn't and what is good practice right now are very different. You can make a small bunker with an ammo can. Even line a big ammo can with fire retardant wall board for heat management. Just remove the gasket so in can vent some. I'm in $40 for a pretty darn safe charging box. $327 for a double walled flammable cabinet with screened vents. Gonna be a lotta smoke, but two living residents...

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/17396 ... o-can-20mm
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Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by markz » May 08, 2017 6:41 pm

^^^You could also use ammo can inside the fireproof cabinet. Be like a Quadruple peace of mind policy.

And please, BUY A FIRE ALARM

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by tomjasz » May 08, 2017 7:38 pm

markz wrote:^^^You could also use ammo can inside the fireproof cabinet. Be like a Quadruple peace of mind policy.

And please, BUY A FIRE ALARM
Smoke and heat already, with auto extinguisher to be added. Dan may have saved more homes and lives than he realizes. I know of a half dozen others that have made huge changes. DOGMAN ROCKS!
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by liveforphysics » May 08, 2017 8:14 pm

So glad you and your critters escaped safely buddy!

Lucky dog to have it fire insured too!

Sometimes stuff gets to own a person vs the person owning the stuff, since you are insured its an unexpected opportunity to escape clutter and reinvent your home/lifestyle to what matters to the man you are today.
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by Tats » May 09, 2017 1:13 am

Yup Dan, Sympathies mate - truly terrible thing to happen but thank you for posting about it.

Really made me think about charging my 18650 pack - I'm in Australia I am purchasing a rhino metal toolbox from Bunnings, sitting it on bricks and lining it with a fire blanket (going to look at heatproof panels too), the battery is already under a smoke alarm and my charger is on a timer plug just in case I forget about it. While this is a an EM3EV pack with a satiator charger I'm still adding some more security. I've also updated my home fire / intruder escape plan too.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by markz » May 09, 2017 1:49 am

There should be an affordable smoke alarm that will text you when it goes off.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by miuan » May 09, 2017 4:46 am

Sorry to hear about your loss Dan. Happy to see you are strong and can deal with all the trouble. Keep it going!
For all the others, this is an easy solution to avoid some of the unexpected overcharge scenarios:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 14&t=87562

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by John in CR » May 09, 2017 5:29 am

Dan,
Just saw your post. Sorry to hear about the event, but glad you and your family are ok.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by dogman dan » May 09, 2017 5:51 am

I truly appreciate youall's support, now that I can talk about it without going into a panic.

Fire alarms are good, should have had another in the garage. Have one close to where you charge. If you missed it in my long story, we were out of the house before mine went off, because the pack going off like firecrackers woke my wife. Near my fireplace, where I charge in winter, I had a second fire alarm. Another near the bedrooms. We got out before they went off.

What really saved my house though, besides living just about next door to the fire station, was the double fire wall in the garage. In a way, the garage itself was a bunker. The stuff in the garage really does not matter, our lives did. Double what code calls for gave us a ton of time to go get the dogs out of the house. I never thought they would want to go back in once out. Instead of hiding in the back yard, they wanted to hide under the bed. By that time, both fire alarms were shrieking. If you own your house, look into improving the firewall between garage and the house. I had one in the attic, and the sheetrock ceiling in the garage was the second one.

Bear in mind,, I really won the reverse lotto having a battery burn my garage down. Lipo belongs in a bunker, but a bms protected lithium manganese cobalt oxide shouldn't have to be bunkered. I'm all for taking some easy precautions, but leaving the battery on the bike and charging in the garage was very nice when the garage was not too hot.
'
But again,, I won the bad luck lotto here. It's not going too happen to each of us. That pack was fine, showing no symptoms of going low capacity, never discharged at high rate, never crashed or dropped. It simply had no reason to go off, even if it had been charging on a dumb power supply. Obviously something failed of course, but the usual result is not a fire, just a pack that shuts off in a half mile.

Just saying, be careful, but don't freak out and let the worry ruin your life. As for me,, well,big batteries won't come into my house or garage anymore. But I will still have a stack of lithium packs for my power tools laying around in there.

But they charge outside now. :wink:

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by beast775 » May 10, 2017 7:16 pm

Hoping you get your house fixed up soon,i actually went and stared at my batt packs and started to come up with a plan that wasnt there before..
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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by footloose » May 11, 2017 4:05 pm

Dan --

What a miserable experience.
Really glad that nobody was physically hurt -- you, Sue, the dogs, even the python. That's the main thing.

Your story made me reassess my garage.
All my batteries are relatively 'safe' chemistry, I try not to leave them charging unattended, etc etc.
But random stuff happens, and batteries pack a lot of energy.
Thinking about it I realized I had a couple of e-bikes just a few feet from a cabinet where I was storing flammables -- lacquer thinner, acetone, alcohol, paint thinner, turpentine, MAPP gas etc.

I've changed that.

Thank you.

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Re: Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Post by dogman dan » May 12, 2017 5:23 am

Glad you rethought footloose. That was my big mistake, with just a few feet of space around the bike, I'd have had a chance to drag the bike out, and I'd have just a smoke damage claim.

Instead, because I trusted a safe battery too much, (and I'm a damn hoarder) I had a chance of dying in that fire, and it nearly burned the house to the ground. Would have, if I lived out in the county instead of right next to a fire station.

The contractor I hired is a good one, so he's busy. Still not started yet, but he is getting closer to being able to start. Meanwhile, I have been de smoking the house, and doing the extra remodeling I've wanted for 10 years. Big improvements to the kitchen by changing a wall, and I moved a closet that blocked the hallway. That house had a list of about 6 things seriously wrong with it when we moved in. Now we will have only one more left, change the master bath tiny tub to a shower. That will get done in the next year or so. Sooner if we have enough insurance money left.

All the smoke smell is gone from the house, stinky cabinets gone, windows washed, and the doors and light fixtures stripped out. Even the garage and attic barely stink anymore, after treatment with the Ozone machine.

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