? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

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RickB
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? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by RickB » Dec 13, 2017 5:48 pm

I trying to figure out if the Zapino e-bike with a 3000w brushless motor qualifies under CA AB2173 as bicycle. The statute references 4 gross brake horsepower max allowed.

Anyone know the way to calculate gross brake horsepower from a 1000, 2000, or 3000w brushless motor?

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by Addy » Dec 13, 2017 5:56 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

1 mechanical horsepower = 746 W, so 3000W / 746 = 4.02 HP

Since motors aren't 100% efficient, if you're putting 3000W of electrical power in, you'd get less than 3000W of mechanical power out.

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by RickB » Dec 13, 2017 6:05 pm

Thanks for the information, So my 3000w motor is over the limit for CA e-bikes by .02 gross brake horsepower...

I wonder if I can test the motor output to see if it comes in under the 4 gross brake horsepower.

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by Chalo » Dec 13, 2017 6:12 pm

Brake horsepower for a hub motor is by definition mechanical output at the wheel, not electrical input. Your motor is doing maybe 3hp at 3000W under optimum operating conditions.
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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by markz » Dec 13, 2017 6:18 pm

Your motor is 100% illegal.

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 13, 2017 6:19 pm

Yep, likely not peaking 3hp shaft power from 3kW input.

Trying to dyno something for repeatable single digit percentage accuracy is also impractical, as even during the pull as the system warms its changing efficiency, and realistic batteries sag unlike a dyno power supply.
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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by dogman dan » Dec 14, 2017 9:00 am

48v running a 22 amps controller should be about the max legal in CA, as the faster e bike. No throttle allowed. This is how Don Costansa had that law written. So a typical 7 turn hub motor on 22 amps would qualify ( meaning a pedego e bike), and go 27 mph max.

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by RickB » Dec 14, 2017 11:16 am

Hi dogman dan. Thanks for the reply. It sounds like you've got a lot of insight into how the CA law as written and I really appreciated more on the subject.

My basic question is whether or not a stock Zapino with a 3000W brushless hub motor meets the CA DMV / AB2173 legal definition of a motorized bicycle. (<4 gross brake horsepower) If there is a way to cite any reference which would stand up in a court of law if needed that would be ideal. Unfortunately Zapino is not long in business as far as I know and are unavailable to assist.

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by DRMousseau » Dec 14, 2017 1:47 pm

RickB wrote:
Dec 14, 2017 11:16 am
My basic question is whether or not a stock Zapino with a 3000W brushless hub motor meets the CA DMV / AB2173 legal definition of a motorized bicycle. (<4 gross brake horsepower) If there is a way to cite any reference which would stand up in a court of law if needed that would be ideal. Unfortunately Zapino is not long in business as far as I know and are unavailable to assist.
Your confusion and uncertainty is easily understood, but California Law defines your "motorized bicycle" in one of two manners! If your awesome Zapino is truly stock and unmodified, then it DOES meet the amended law of AB 2173 under Section 1-406(a), while section (b) is only for electric motorized bikes with pedals, with other following restrictions.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/face ... 0140AB2173

While the specs of the Zapina (found in owners manual) lists the motor at 3000w (4hp) RATING, the "gross brake horsepower" is generally less even though peak current draws may possibly reach the controller cutoff of 60A.

Rather nice that California's Law was broadened to specifically include the Zapino and others like it, that desperately attempted to meet legal requirements for the general market.

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by amberwolf » Dec 14, 2017 2:17 pm

RickB wrote:
Dec 14, 2017 11:16 am


My basic question is whether or not a stock Zapino with a 3000W brushless hub motor meets the CA DMV / AB2173 legal definition of a motorized bicycle.
The motor rating is irrelevant, because it does not determine how much power the bike has.

(unless the law specifically calls out the motor rating itself as the limitation, in which case you could use such a limited motor but use a gigantic controller on it and actually have much more power than the law was intended to limit to, although you'd be being hard on the motor).

That's why Dogman stated it the way he did--the controller determines how much power the bike has: Volts it gets from the battery, multiplied by it's current limit in amps, gives you the peak power the controller can supply to the motor.

Then it just has to be speed limited to the limit of whatever class the bike is marked as (generally the controller does this, if it doesn't, the Cycle Analyst from http://ebikes.ca could be used to do this. It could also be used to limit the power of the system if it *is* higher than the law allows).

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by DRMousseau » Dec 14, 2017 3:47 pm

amberwolf wrote:
Dec 14, 2017 2:17 pm
The motor rating is irrelevant, because it does not determine how much power the bike has.

That's why Dogman stated it the way he did--the controller determines how much power the bike has: Volts it gets from the battery, multiplied by it's current limit in amps, gives you the peak power the controller can supply to the motor.
That's why it was important to note if his Zapino is indeed STOCK and an unmodified "SYSTEM". Any alterations, such as speed limiting, battery or controller changes, "could" render his cute Zapino beyond the legal limits!!! ACK!!!

It's really important to understand the terminology of the technology AND the legal terminology! And sometimes it takes legislatures a bit to catch up. Technology moves much faster!!! :wink:

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by 2WheelsMovesTheSoul » Dec 14, 2017 6:25 pm

I'm here in Cali and have been milling this "Do I build it legal or fun?" over for the last few months as I collect parts for my winter project. I kinda wanna build within the parameters of the new laws but there's also the I DO WANT I WANT side of me I can't deny. Basic build out is QS205V3, Kelly 72v@120A & Chinese Stealth/EE frame.

As you may know there now 4 classes of 'motorized' bicycles in California. Very simplified explanations here https://electricbikereview.com/guides/e ... e-classes/

this is kinda old...
the amended law of AB 2173 under Section 1-406(a), while section (b)

Distinctions are dependent on things like max speed, type of throttle input and if it has multiple speeds, then the class also determines where it can be ridden, like bike lanes, walking paths, trails, ect... How fast appears to be State regulated, where seems to be controlled more by local ordinances than anything. The key here is how fast and where you ride.

I plan to build for a quasi legal class 1, 2 & 3 with a secret +4 mode using a combo of standard wired relays, switches, bluetooth/wifi relays and the controllers built in 3 speed function and current limiting options via bluetooth for each of the 3 speeds. So "on the key", the bike would only function as a 1, 2 or 3 until I sync my phone and digitally bypass all limitations and run it unlimited or Class 4.

Using a 3 position switch:
Position 1 or Low Speed would be set at 20mph max and would use a thumb throttle for Class 1.
Position 2 Normal Speed would be essentially the same as 1, however a relay would change the throttle in from thumb to PAS, the controller would still be hooked to low speed switch.
Position 3 or High Speed would actually be hooked up to the controllers normal speed switch, the speed would be set at class 3 limit of 28mph and use the PAS, the thumb throttle would be turned off by a relay.

Then when I am off road, using a bluetooth relay module I can override the whole system without actually touching the bike.The controller would be hooked up to the high speed switch for unregulated amps and speed, I can select thumb throttle, PAS or both and it also cuts the brake signal from the front brakes to the controller so I can roast the rear tire on demand.

Yeah, I know.... I said quasi legal. We all know it only really matters if you get paced or radar gunned by the cops. However, if I ever do get pulled or have some curious LEO want a test ride I'm kinda covered as the whole system reverts back to 'on the key or 123' as soon as the power is turned off. Thankfully the QS doesn't have any wattage ratings etched into the case and my Kelly controller only shows a max amperage rating on it's label. I see it as a grey area. What class I "claim" the bike is is dependent on where and how fast I may have be going. Sorry, I don't remember Sir.

Being legal is nice but being legal isn't always a metric for right and wrong. An ebike running at 30+mph is not hurting anyone except those who stand to profit from fuel sales, fuel tax, DMV registration and mandatory insurance requirements. This is why I don't feel the least bit of guilt grey area 'ing the shit of these stifling regulations.

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by flat tire » Dec 14, 2017 6:48 pm

Don't worry if it's legal or not. Legal bikes are unfun and unsafe to ride on the road because cars will be passing you often angry that someone slow dares to share "their space". You want enough power and speed to go with the flow of traffic. Otherwise, don't bother.

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by Chalo » Dec 15, 2017 5:06 pm

flat tire wrote:
Dec 14, 2017 6:48 pm
Don't worry if it's legal or not. Legal bikes are unfun and unsafe to ride on the road because cars will be passing you often angry that someone slow dares to share "their space". You want enough power and speed to go with the flow of traffic. Otherwise, don't bother.
Ride a blatantly illegal e-bike, then, so no motorist will ever be found at fault and you'll never get an insurance settlement if something goes wrong. That seems totally fun and safe.

Do you know how ridiculous your assertions/anxieties sound to folks who ride pedal bikes for transportation? It's like you don't believe those millions of people even exist.
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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by flat tire » Dec 16, 2017 1:50 pm

Yeah, well you guys ride on the side of the road and have absolutely no option except to get hit when someone doesn't see you, is drunk, or gets pissed off, or whatever. NO OPTION! Now I used to do it too when I rode a road bike, so I'm not above this, but really it's kind of stupid and best avoided.

Oh, and this is the best part:
Chalo wrote:
Dec 15, 2017 5:06 pm
Ride a blatantly illegal e-bike, then, so no motorist will ever be found at fault and you'll never get an insurance settlement if something goes wrong. That seems totally fun and safe.
You go ahead and explain to St. Peter that you shouldn't have died because it was YOUR RIGHT to ride on the side of the road and the bike was legal. Meanwhile, I'll use my illegal bikes to put myself in the best position out of harm's way and if there are issues with the law I will pay for them and continue living and riding.

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by Chalo » Dec 16, 2017 4:07 pm

You conveniently ignore the fact that motorcycling is statistically MUCH more dangerous than regular bicycling. You think it's safer to ride the way that's proven more dangerous by the data? Good luck with that.
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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by Buk___ » Dec 16, 2017 6:01 pm

Chalo wrote:
Dec 16, 2017 4:07 pm
You conveniently ignore the fact that motorcycling is statistically MUCH more dangerous than regular bicycling. You think it's safer to ride the way that's proven more dangerous by the data? Good luck with that.
Some interesting statistics from :
Crash, Injury and Fatality Rates of Cars, Trucks, Motorcycles and Bikes
Although many of these accidents involved cars crashing into other cars, the amount of damage and the severity of injuries involved when cars collide with motorcycles and bikes is absolutely staggering. The motorcycle fatality rate is over 17 times greater, and bicycle fatality rates are nearly 10 times greater than that for automobiles.

In 2013, bicycle and motorcycle injuries and deaths in Virginia were as follows:

Bike accidents:

800 reported accidents
739 serious injuries (92 percent of bike accidents result in serious injuries)
10 deaths (1.3 percent of bike accidents result in fatal injuries)
Motorcycle accidents:

2,000 reported accidents
1,800 serious injuries (90 percent of motorcycle accidents result in serious injuries)
60 deaths (3 percent result in fatalities)
The lack of protection that is inherent with bikes and motorcycles make them dangerously susceptible for damages when an accident occurs. Although motorcycle accidents are more than twice as likely as bike accidents to be fatal, both types of accidents have rates of sustained injuries that are extremely high when compared to automobiles (73 percent injury and .8 percent fatality rates).
"Reported accidents" perhaps doesn't cover the whole story; and a higher percentage of those result is fatalities for motorcycles -- higher speeds -- but a (slightly) higher proportion of bicycle accidents result in "serious injuries".

The more interesting statistic -- which I failed to find anywhere -- would be bicycles versus mopeds (say:2 wheels, capable of reaching 50kph/30mph within 5 seconds).

When I was learning to take my motorcycle test -- I learnt to ride by getting on and falling off a few times -- the instructor said one thing that stayed with me. The test had to be taken on a sub-125cc class machine which than was about the same as a modern gas-power 50cc if it isn't artificially restricted. That was:

"Stop worrying about the guy behind you waiting to overtake, take the center of your lane and hold it. make him go around, not try to slip by. Because it's the guy up ahead that "didn't see you" that you really need to worry about; he's the one that will likely kill you; unless you see him and antisipate him not seeing you."

I'm not sure what my point is; only that it isn't clear cut.

I think many bicycle incidents are caused by cyclists trying to continue moving when the general traffic flow has stopped or slowed to a crawl -- moving past (almost) stationary cars, trucks and buses in places where the car/truck/bus driver can reasonably not expect to be overtaken -- by a car/truck/bus.

I think (<- note the choice of phrasing) that if e-cyclists could (legally) accelerate to 30mph/50kph at the same speed as the car/truck/bus in front of them, not only would the car behind not feel the necessity to overtake them; they would not feel the need to jump to the front of the queue by shimmying down the inside or outside of traffic.

"Owning the lane" makes (e-)cyclists much safer; but it would certainly be easier if the rules didn't preclude town traffic speed matching. Neither 250W nor 750W aren't enough to do that.

I think!

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by Chalo » Dec 16, 2017 6:19 pm

Man, I always jump the queue at traffic lights, unless some dingdong is hugging the curb. (Even then I'll often pick up the bike and pass them on the sidewalk.) It's not my obligation to wait and suck fumes directly from people's tailpipes just because they are in front of me. If the cross street opens up before the light changes, I'll proceed so I can be clear of the stupidity and resulting gust of exhaust when the smoggers surge forward all at once. Blunt force trauma is not the only form of violence that motor vehicles inflict on us.

I don't have to ride as fast as car traffic, to ride in such a way that I minimize time spent next to cars.
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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by flat tire » Dec 16, 2017 6:33 pm

First, lots of people ride bicycles in the USA but very, very few ride them any serious distance beside the road. So those stats are a bad comparison to start with.

Motorcycles give you more rope to hang yourself with than a human power bicycle. The high death rate is a direct reflection of that and the fact that rider training is absolutely horrible. Not just bike control but traffic management and defensive driving. The most common fatal motorcycle wreck is caused by someone pulling out in front of the motorcyclist, like making a left turn. This is not really an issue for the most part on human-power bikes because they go slowly enough to give very large reaction time. Not to mention the type of person who WANTS to ride a motorcycle is probably a risk taker in general. Along those lines, a very large proportion of motorcyclists who die have been drinking alcohol. That doesn't really apply too much to human power bicyclists either. You probably won't crash your bicycle if you're drunk and if you do you probably won't die. So take those out, take avoidable left turn fatalities out (nearly all of them, if the rider pays attention and puts themselves in a good place), take all other wrecks caused by poor judgement and inexcusably poor rider training out, and you're left with a few freak accidents.

FWIW, my bikes are light motorcycles.

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by DRMousseau » Dec 16, 2017 10:20 pm

flat tire wrote:
Dec 16, 2017 6:33 pm
FWIW, my bikes are light motorcycles.
If your bikes a "light motorcycle" (legal or not),.... then you may wish to SEEN as a motorcycle, and drive and use the road appropriately AS such.

But if your a bicycle, or even a "stealthy" e-bike,.... then you appear as any other bicycle. And should ride in much the same fashion. As few motorists expect a casual rider to be moving TWICE the distance at TWICE the speed as a screamin' lycra!!! They may see and recognize a bicycle, casual or otherwise,.... and by the time they have look the other way to assure clear traffic, YOU have moved into the danger zone!!! Even at the typical 20mph limit of e-bike regs,... you had better be aware AND able to stop should need be. NOT speed up, jus cause ya can.

btw,... "bike lanes" ARE NOT intended for motorcycles!

Remember,... you cute Zapino appears as a "motor scooter". Recognized as capable of such, with typical speeds,... don't appear as anything else, and don't hide what you are capable of.

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Re: ? Gross Brake = 3000w Brushless Hub motor

Post by flat tire » Dec 16, 2017 10:36 pm

You're making a lot of unfounded assumptions. I value high visibility when using the street, although I assume nobody EVER sees me. In fact on any given ride I'll usually meet at least a couple people who SHOULD see me but don't. It's all right, I anticipate it and take action accordingly.

Oh, and my bikes are freaking AWESOME on bike paths! Ever wanted to ride your motorcycle on that type of thing but couldn't? Now you can. Etiquette is important for good results on repeat visits.

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