GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

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GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby MitchJi » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:43 pm

Hi,

Interesting (IMO):
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/03/gm-provides-glimpse-of-battery-strategy-and-approach-for-the-future-with-briefing-on-gen-1-volt-pack.html#more

Excerpt:
GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy and Approach for the Future with Briefing on Gen 1 Volt Pack; Work on Gen 2 and Gen 3 Packs Already Underway, With a Focus on Cost

Three key General Motors executives involved with the Chevrolet Volt this week held a media briefing on the state of GM’s battery pack strategy for the Chevrolet Volt and its current Gen 1 pack as well as subsequent generations (Gen 2 and Gen 3) of battery packs destined for the underlying Voltec platform. They also delivered an update on the progress of the Volt’s development cycle.

Executive Director of Global Engineering–Hybrids, Electric Vehicles, and Batteries Robert Kruse, Volt Vehicle Chief Engineer Andrew Farah, and Director of Global Battery Systems Engineering Denise Gray took turns describing work completed so far as well as next steps for the project...

Image
The Gen 1 Volt 16 kWh pack, comprising more than 200 cells grouped into modules. GM is defining a “reuse” strategy for cells, packs and modules within its future vehicle line-up.

Image
Best Wishes!

Mitch


This table compares the cost/wh and lifetime cost based on a cycle life of 500 cycles. Nissan Leaf Cells beat Ping LiFePO4 and HK LiPo hands down!

Leaf Cells, tier 1 OEM quality Lithium for roughly a similar lifetime cost as lead!

Module specs are here

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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby thomas » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:55 pm

great vehicle enabled by great battery.... that made me smile :)
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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby dnmun » Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:24 pm

this is what we thought they would look like when LG got the contract and a123 was dropped. pouches floating in the coolant and the tabs come out the top through a seal which prevents the coolant from entering the current tray on top. notice how the modules have the coolant tubes mounted so that there is a seal where that nipple pushes into the next module.

it appears that the coolant pump is in the cross T at the back and the inverter is in the front, with that deep notch for something structural in the frame, so the battery is dropped out underneath the vehicle. likely has a perimeter lip and gasket to bolt up to the underside of the body.

the deeper and deeper they pile on the weight, the more attractive an Aptera hybrid appears all the time. it is so elegant, wow.

gary, will you be in long beach on april 4th? aptera is scheduling another public showing, you could drive up on your little folder and show them how it would fit in back.
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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby markcycle » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:23 am

I wonder if all this cooling and fluid and pumps would be necessary if they used A123 cells. Seems they wanted to make it complicated to keep the maintenance cost high. I see leaks everywhere after all its GM. I'm guessing the fluid is to keep the batteries warm in winter climates as well as to keep them cool in hot climates. To me the KISS (Kept it simple stupid) concept would win out over size and weight on a first build of a new technology, then after time add technology to reduce size and weight. Not GM they add tech that is irrelevant to the customer's experience for no reason, seems they are setting themselves up for failure.

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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby MitchJi » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:16 pm

Hi,

Not GM they add tech that is irrelevant to the customer's experience for no reason, seems they are setting themselves up for failure.


I think their worst nightmare is a lot of Warranty returns on the battery pack. They are doing everything possible to optimize the life of the cells and the pack.
Best Wishes!

Mitch


This table compares the cost/wh and lifetime cost based on a cycle life of 500 cycles. Nissan Leaf Cells beat Ping LiFePO4 and HK LiPo hands down!

Leaf Cells, tier 1 OEM quality Lithium for roughly a similar lifetime cost as lead!

Module specs are here

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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby knightmb » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:20 am

The irony I guess, some of the users here post from a GM IP address, so know that someone(s) from GM automotive reads this forum. :)

But don't worry, I won't say who. :mrgreen:
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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby dnmun » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:57 am

i don't think marty ever hid his relationship. i am sure they can't talk about anything outside of work anyway.

i don't understand how the structure works internally, but there is no reason that they could not totally change, they have the brains to do it, cadillac is cadillac because they had the first ELECTRIC starter. forever personified the upper class status of the vehicle. you can see it in bugatti and citroen, it doesn't have to change inside chevy even. they could do it as a joint venture with the chinese through buick.

cooling is fundamental for the power demands they are gonna need. talking 2,000kg vehicle, assume they will demand that marketing and the sales people can say 80mph, so the 16kWh is gonna be running at 20-30C to get 80mph, and i wonder if the serial generator could even keep up. volkswagon is using 380CC diesel to get to 100mpg on their tandem, expect volt to have 1200cc Fuel Injected gas assist, at a minimum. assume 70% loss in transmission, still makes the prius and honda hybrids look more sound in design and concept. i would like to see aptera succeed more than tesla even. in fact i can see how being totally extreme in design, can put you in a class of vehicle that transcends regular marketing

look at how tidal force and now E+ and optibike try to create that integrated aura of the bike and assist.

there is no denying that the world has changed in the last 6 months though, if the current treasury plan doesn't revive the commercial paper market, it can make the idea of introducing a new vehicle financially impossible. they have 4k pre orders, i wonder if suddenly there will be a profusion of similar vehicles, similar even to the designs from amory lovins with carbon fiber.

to top off this rambling, waggoner said over the weekend that maybe the guvment should tax gas to keep it up around $4, and this is after ray lahood (republican transportation secty) said there would be no more gas taxes.
Last edited by dnmun on Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby markcycle » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:40 pm

If LG can make a battery that puts out 20 to 30C and lasts the life of the car, well then that is certainly an excellent battery. To me it makes no sense to use a battery at speeds greater than 50 MPH when you have a gas engine on board. The stress on the electrical system plus the extra cost to sustain that current level doesn't make economic sense. No wonder the car is coming in at $40,000 dollars.

I ran some numbers based on a 16KW battery and say 320 bus voltage, that's a 50AH battery at 20C that's 1000 amps that doesn't seem right. I guessing more like 10C max and 500 amps peak probably 300 amps continuous.

Granted I don't know the bus voltage, but based on others systems 320 seems like a reasonable number.

So more like 10C which make sense based on current tech and how long they want the battery to last.

That's my technical assessment

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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby jondoh » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:12 pm

Here's my problem with the volt. Technically, it's a superior hybrid-- it's basically an electric car with a generator for backup which is something most DIY people consider impractical BUT performance-wise, it's the same as a prius or insight but with a much higher price tage.

I'm also wondering how much time, effort, money went into their battery program. It's nice that they are able to do the battery pack in-house. It's nice that it's something they consider their core compentancy. Again, I question the cost because, if batteries improve to the point where all the sophisticated cooling and battery management is not needed to the same degree as todays batteries, will all this great technology really be put into production? Lets say that someone develops magic pixie dust that keep lipos from catching fire and also drops internal resistance down to almost nothing with much higher energy densities. Or what if peoples taste in cars move towards the very small car and material science is able to bring the weight down another 20%. What if in the end, all this research and development isn't used at all?

This latest presentation of their progress is not enough to convince me that they're on track to making a car everyone wants at a price everyone can afford. If someone comes out with a popular all electric car at around the same time as the volt, GM will have suffered a setback. Sometimes I wonder if GM wants the volt to become a failure just to prove again that electric cars are a bad idea.
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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby dnmun » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:32 pm

the volt is gonna be a marque product. i think they will demand a premium, not take a loss like honda and toyota do on their hybrids. toyota just announced a price drop on the prius after honda stated taking orders at a rate nobody expected. i think the new Insight honda hybrid is gonna be the category killer since even some of the magazine test drivers are getting 60mpg. honda also has the CNG engine too and could install that as the series power and now you are talking 80mpg for fuel that is 60 cents a gallon when marketed at a fair price.

so there will be severe headwinds for a new large EV incapable of extended travel. a city car really. jmho
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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby Doctorbass » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:15 pm

MitchJi wrote:Hi,

Not GM they add tech that is irrelevant to the customer's experience for no reason, seems they are setting themselves up for failure.


I think their worst nightmare is a lot of Warranty returns on the battery pack. They are doing everything possible to optimize the life of the cells and the pack.



May i must contact them in advance for knowing where is their future recycling service center :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby Toshi » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:57 pm

dnmun wrote:the volt is gonna be a marque product. i think they will demand a premium, not take a loss like honda and toyota do on their hybrids. toyota just announced a price drop on the prius after honda stated taking orders at a rate nobody expected. i think the new Insight honda hybrid is gonna be the category killer since even some of the magazine test drivers are getting 60mpg. honda also has the CNG engine too and could install that as the series power and now you are talking 80mpg for fuel that is 60 cents a gallon when marketed at a fair price.

so there will be severe headwinds for a new large EV incapable of extended travel. a city car really. jmho


you're searching for the word "marquee", not marque (ie, a brand).

no one knows whether toyota and honda take a loss on their hybrids after amortization of r&d costs—all blogosphere posts to the contrary are pure speculation by uninformed participants.

with regard to autobloggreen's 60 mpg figure in the insight: that was under ideal conditions, hasn't been replicated, and isn't supported by the specifications of the car. comparing EPA ratings to EPA ratings is the only fair comparison. i don't thing consumers would flock to a CNG hybrid as they clearly aren't flocking to the Civic GX despite its availability on the market for several years.

finally, i, too, am very curious to see if a 100-120 mile range EV will gain widespread market acceptance. i'm rational enough to consider purchasing such a vehicle as my daily driving needs are far below that—i don't even own a car now! however, i'm still not convinced that joe sixpack is sufficiently rational: see exhibit A, how americans bought pickup trucks for arguably irrational reasons, as they are not used for towing, hauling, or anything that a first-generation honda insight couldn't do.
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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby MitchJi » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:04 pm

Hi,

Doctorbass wrote:
May i must contact them in advance for knowing where is their future recycling service center :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Guess why!

Doc


Its called a Junk Yard. Here you go :):
http://www.junkyards.com/
You can use our directory of junk yards to locate a junk yard close to you.


This is the future of recycled cells for Ebike packs. Except for damage caused by physical impact you can probably expect 100% good cells.
Best Wishes!

Mitch


This table compares the cost/wh and lifetime cost based on a cycle life of 500 cycles. Nissan Leaf Cells beat Ping LiFePO4 and HK LiPo hands down!

Leaf Cells, tier 1 OEM quality Lithium for roughly a similar lifetime cost as lead!

Module specs are here

Get a great deal on an EV (NEV), buy my ZENN!
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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby dnmun » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:10 pm

macarana, macaroon, maybe maybe spoke too soon. i thought the marquee was the where they listed the current picture show.

GM will take Volt out of chevy, they are using the term 'Voltec platform' already, they have to shrink, dramatically. there is more than 100% excess capacity in the car business. i think if Opel survives, GM will use their small car development group, but still just getting further behind.

they should just admit they made a mistake in not meeting the hybrid challenge originally, and build a parallel hybrid platform to compete with toyota and honda.

lutz is gonna be gone, but they cannot wait for him to leave to admit they were wrong and give up this idea they will just leapfrog toyota and honda to an EV platform. that is the mental contortion they have gone through in order to not have to admit defeat, and mistakes in development planning a decade ago when oil was $10 bbl and they hired lutz. the serial interface gas motor-generator-inverter-controller-AC motor is gonna only be about 70% efficient. the honda serial hybrid system is through the CVT and is therefore direct drive with efficiency of 99%. that is hard to overcome so Volt mileage will still be only in the 40mpg range running on series gasoline motor, imho.

i feel for you losing your car, those are nice cars. i could not get by without a pickup, the one here in portland is currently loaded with a yard of gravel, 3500lbs,for fill where i am rebuilding my driveway apron and sidewalk. i actually have 3 or 4 pickups out of a stable of 12 vehicles, most at my place in colorado. mostly i use my honda wagon as a pickup for building materials, or traveling cross country. but i am an extreme case. i even have one of the original CRX hf models, serial number #175, among 4 hondas from the 80's. when they were still light weight. add to the pile: 6 bikes, 4 hubmotors, 2 nicad batteries.

people drive pickups and fat cars so they can be the basher, not the bashee. i did think it was interesting that waggoner was quoted as supporting a gas tax to get fuel to the $4 level which would support them changing their model base, to smaller sizes, as i understand him to have meant.
Last edited by dnmun on Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby MitchJi » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:38 pm

Hi Toshi,

Toshi wrote:i don't thing consumers would flock to a CNG hybrid as they clearly aren't flocking to the Civic GX despite its availability on the market for several years.

finally, i, too, am very curious to see if a 100-120 mile range EV will gain widespread market acceptance. i'm rational enough to consider purchasing such a vehicle as my daily driving needs are far below that—i don't even own a car now! however, i'm still not convinced that joe sixpack is sufficiently rational: see exhibit A, how americans bought pickup trucks for arguably irrational reasons, as they are not used for towing, hauling, or anything that a first-generation honda insight couldn't do.


I think a 40 mile range PHEV is a good match for CNG. No worries if you rarely use the gas.

For most people I think a 100-120 mile range EV is a better option because the maintenance will be less. The current issue is still the cost of batteries (although a base vehicle more like the Insight than a Volt would go a long way toward solving that issue).

Heres your chance to get one of the First Plug-in Hybrids sold In America :D:
http://gas2.org/2009/03/23/first-plug-in-hybrid-in-americais-a-scooter/
Vespa scooter maker, the Piaggio Group, says they will be selling a plug-in hybrid scooter in the United States by early 2010.

According to HybridCars.com, if they do make good on their plans, the plug-in scooter will be the first manufactured plug-in on American soil - beating out the Chevy Volt by six months.

In an interview with HybridCars.com, Sebastian Schepis — chief editor of zoomilife.com and the founder of Zoomiscooters LLC — said, “The Piaggio scooter will be the first plug-in hybrid personal transporter. If it has a top speed that’s freeway legal, it will appeal to a lot of people who need to get on the freeway [for their commute].” Schepis also believes that the Piaggio plug-in hybrid scooter will have “street cred in green circles.”

Well, with a combined fuel economy of 140 mpg, and an acceleration of 0 to 60 in 5 seconds…I don’t see why not. The scooter’s all electric range is still unknown but it will use regenerative breaking to recharge the batteries. It can also be charged from a standard 110 volt electrical outlet.

The scooter will use a parallel hybrid design similar to the technical approach used by most of today’s hybrid cars.

Paolo Timoni, president and CEO of Piaggio Group Americas, committed to the early 2010 release date, in an interview earlier this month on the Fox News Car Report. He also noted that Piaggio is currently going through the certification process for the scooter with the National Highway and Transportation Safety Association. It is also scheduled to go on sale in Europe later this year.


I'd prefer to get the best price I could on a used one and convert it to electric.
Best Wishes!

Mitch


This table compares the cost/wh and lifetime cost based on a cycle life of 500 cycles. Nissan Leaf Cells beat Ping LiFePO4 and HK LiPo hands down!

Leaf Cells, tier 1 OEM quality Lithium for roughly a similar lifetime cost as lead!

Module specs are here

Get a great deal on an EV (NEV), buy my ZENN!
"2006 ZENN NEV - Only ~2K Miles - Excellent Cond! - Only $2k"
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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby Toshi » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:01 pm

MitchJi wrote:Heres your chance to get one of the First Plug-in Hybrids sold In America :D:
http://gas2.org/2009/03/23/first-plug-in-hybrid-in-americais-a-scooter/
Vespa scooter maker, the Piaggio Group, says they will be selling a plug-in hybrid scooter in the United States by early 2010.

I'd prefer to get the best price I could on a used one and convert it to electric.

dnmun, i sold my car voluntarily. i'm all about keeping my life simple and minimizing the amount of stuff i have: one e-bike and no car. the flip side of this is that i'm financially secure, don't live close to the edge, as it were, and am not forced to have a garage sale when unforeseen events occur.

mitch, i've been eagerly following the news of the MP3 plug-in hybrid, and indeed maintain a mammoth thread dedicated to alternative personal transportation on another forum.

i have no faith in piaggio's—or any company involved in the "green arena", for that matter—ability to actually meet their stated timetable of 2010, however. this goes for Aptera's 2e, the Tesla Model S, the Green Vehicles TRIAC, and sundry other pie-in-the-sky projects as well.

my current plan is to buy a used, gasoline powered Piaggio MP3 250 this summer. it runs about $4-6k on the used market, and its capabilities are astounding when compared to an electric vehicle: 77 mph top speed; 150 mile range with 5 minute refilling; and dealerships that can service it if it breaks! hopefully the electric world will have something comparable to offer by the time i finish residency in 2013.
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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby voicecoils » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:59 pm

dnmun wrote:...the honda serial hybrid system is through the CVT and is therefore direct drive with efficiency of 99%...


What CVT is 99% efficient? A single stage chain drive system can transmit power above 98% efficiency but I don't know of anything else that comes so close to 100%.
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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby knightmb » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:44 am

voicecoils wrote:
dnmun wrote:...the honda serial hybrid system is through the CVT and is therefore direct drive with efficiency of 99%...


What CVT is 99% efficient? A single stage chain drive system can transmit power above 98% efficiency but I don't know of anything else that comes so close to 100%.

Maybe he meant 98.499999% ? :mrgreen:
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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby needWheels » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:40 pm

They just said on CNN that the battery itself weighs 400 pounds?
That can't be lithium technology at that high weight for just 40 mile range?!
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Re: GM Provides Glimpse of Battery Strategy - Volt Pack Briefing

Postby Toshi » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:14 pm

needWheels wrote:They just said on CNN that the battery itself weighs 400 pounds?
That can't be lithium technology at that high weight for just 40 mile range?!

it's a 16 kWh pack (of which 8 kWh is used) with water cooling and a crash-proof construction. that sounds reasonable to me for a production car.
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