jonescg's NEW electric racebike BUILD thread!

[voicecoils]

Congrats Chris, that's a big step forward!

[Nuts&Volts]

Awesome! Do you plan to make the controller swappable as well? I really like the idea of utilizing the power-train in both vehicles.

You may also look at the Sevcon Size 10 controller http://www.sevcon.com/ac-controllers/gen4-size-10.aspx
Very comparable in size and weight with a lot more power capabilty if you ever want to upgrade. I am unsure of cost, but I dont think it is too much more than the Rinehart.

I was told the weight is around 13kg and I would guess the cost is would close to $10k based on some numbers I've heard from some people.

[Grinhill]

I really like the idea of utilizing the power-train in both vehicles.

+1

Drive the electric car around all year, bolt the motor into the bike on race day!! Love it!!! (especially if there are only three races per year )

[jonescg]

Ideally I would have the batteries, controller and motor hot-swappable. But I want both, and the electric car will be some time away. I think the controller will be transferable too, but eventually each vehicle will have it's own running gear.

Man, this stuff is expensive

[SplinterOz]

What controller are you looking at? Will they set it up with controller before shipping?

[jonescg]

I need a controller which will run comfortably on a 700 V DC Bus. Only the Rineheart PM150DZ controller will do this, however from what Kyle said a Sevcon will also do this (I know Sevcon are working in a really big inverter due out at the end of the year). Their performance, mass, size and cost are pretty much equal. Evo recommends RMS inverters with their motors anyway, so they will be in communication with RMS about the application. I have an email from Larry saying he'd consider a discounted price in return for promoting his goods, so hopefully he will come good with the offer. Lots of room for promotion on a bike.

The problem with lower voltage setups was the upper DC Bus limits of the inverters available. Even a Wavesculptor would only put out peaks of 100 kW on a 450 V DC Bus. The PM150 should be good for peaks of 170 kW, and 100 kW continuous

[Nuts&Volts]

The problem with lower voltage setups was the upper DC Bus limits of the inverters available. Even a Wavesculptor would only put out peaks of 100 kW on a 450 V DC Bus. The PM150 should be good for peaks of 170 kW, and 100 kW continuous

Yep you said it. Now you're going to need a bit of cooling for 100kW continuous, but you'll probably run out of road doing that. I mean 100kW would have you doin 180mph forever haha

[jonescg]

No smoke, no fire, no problems One of the joys of running an excessively powerful motor is the fact it won't be at the extreme end of it's capabilities. My pair of smoke machines on the other hand were always living within a few watts of certain incineration. It was goo to get advice from the guys at Evo on the motor's capabilities.

Actually to be fair, the enquiry support and service I have been getting from Evo of late has improved enormously. They must have had a company shake-up there or something, but their engineers got back to me the next day with advice on inverters, DC Bus maximums duty cycles and peak loads and everything... I was shocked!

[Doctorbass]

I mean 100kW would have you doin 180mph forever haha

yeah.. with a 10kWh battery it would run 6 minutes ( forever...)

Doc

[Nuts&Volts]

I mean 100kW would have you doin 180mph forever haha

yeah.. with a 10kWh battery it would run 6 minutes ( forever...)

Doc

Forever is relative...worlds longest extension cord maybe haha

[Nuts&Volts]

I saw your question about Rinehart controllers in another thread. From what I have researched both Lightning and Motoczysz and have used most likely still use the Rinehart 150 in their race bikes. I have also seen the inverters used in quite a lot of different cars and other projects as well. Let me know if you want me to dig up these projects for you?

Here is a webpage with some good information http://www.neweagle.net/support/wiki/in ... otion_FAQs
Only thing that seems off is that I have seen different numbers for the weight of these inverters...

Inverter is also available here https://store.neweagle.net/ProductDetai ... 1335301624
price is $10,500 USD

[jonescg]

Hey everyone,

I have another update on this build thread! Yay!
After much head scratching and pondering, I have decided I won't be using the K5 GSXR1000 as a donor chassis. Apart from the fact that it's an awesome ICE bike as it is, there are some serious issues with how I will fit everything into it. The K5 GSXR1000 was shrink in almost every way compared to the K4, and even more than the later, K7s. Why I didn't notice this, I don't know. But the reality is, it ain't going to fit, and if I did try to make it fit, I would be left disappointed with the compromises.

So I have decided to get a custom frame built

It's not as expensive as you might think - roughly the same as what the donor bike cost me. Granted, I will need to attach brakes, forks and shocks to it, but in the grand scheme of thins I will be happier knowing that the bike does fit everything and satisfies true race bike geometry.

Some important considerations - the Evo AFM140 motor is big, but narrow. Therefore it needs to sit inside the swingarm such that the chain won't be reaching too far to the drive sprocket. This means getting a custom swingarm made - or does it?

Exhibit one - A Ducati supersport 800/900 swingarm:

Swingarm.jpg (12.69 KiB) Viewed 613 times

This swingarm allows for the shock to be placed above the motor. It also has a H-shape able to accommodate the rather large Evo motor. I want to run a 160 or a 170 rear tyre such that there is plenty of chain clearance and the motor can remain centrally located (not off to one side, upsetting the balance of the bike). A 180 tyre wouldn't allow this.

On the custom frame front, I have been in discussions with Framecrafters in Illinois. Randy and Karsten have been developing custom race bikes for a long time, and have made some amazing machines. Their speciality is Chro-Moly trellis frames, although they have made some Moto3 bikes using CNC's aluminium parts. I was thinking something like this could work for Voltron II:



The trick is to ensure there is enough room for a 220 mm by 320 mm battery box which can drop in from the top, while at the same time making sure the thing isn't too fat for the rider above. It will taper at the base where the motor will have a series of attachment points.

In this earlier sketch I considered using a CNC'd aluminium motor cradle which accommodates four large supports around the diameter of the motor on 8 mm aluminium plates. By allowing the motor to be suspended in the frame from these instead of the 16 M10 holes provided, it makes it a little easier for the frame builder to mount the motor after a somewhat generic trellis frame has been made.



I think the trellis frame is a winner, but supporting the motor will be the tough part.

Now, you might be thinking how am I going to get a frame built on the other side of the world and still have everything line up when I get it? Well I can provide Randy with a CAD file of the motor and he can get it cut from cheap plate ally or something, and weld a mock motor up. Since the threaded holes will all be in the same spots, it should be straightforward to build the frame around it.

Oh, and it goes without saying, I need to sell the Gixxer to pay for this. So if you know anyone who is keen on a track bike, already set up - let me know!

[Science Faction]

You may want consider Paul Rooney as a frame builder.
http://rooneycycle.wordpress.com/virtual-workshop/
I have been to his workshop in nsw, about an hour south of byron bay and he specializes in off road safari BMW race bikes, but has a a history of building all sorts of bikes.
Very clever fella.
Cheers
Paul

[jonescg]

Thanks for the tip, Paul. I have decided to stick with Randy and Karsten at Framecrafters. Their prices are very competitive and their work is stunning.

So I have made a 50% deposit on the custom frame! It's still going to involve lots of input and thought from Framecrafters and myself, particularly the swingarm attachment and the motor attachment.



Just my latest scribblings...

Hope to have the Gixxer sold tomorrow morning; looking promising

[Jay64]

How much are they charging, if you don't mind me asking?

[jonescg]

Trellis frames start at $4000 minus the swingarm, but I hope to fit a Ducati SS900 swingarm. Maybe an extra $500 for the crazy swingarm mounts I need, and getting the motor mock-up laser cut for mounting.

They also stock and fit forks and triples, so lets say $7000 shipped to Perth?

[Nuts&Volts]

Awesome stuff! Only question is, will the bike still roll with the motor removed and is the install of the motor less than an hours work? That is if you are still thinking you want to dual purpose the motor....

If I were you I would leave a bit of extra space for adding more batteries or a little bit different size pack in case you need to upgrade or change in the future. Looks like you are already going somewhat swappable pack similar' to RIpperton's.

Last thing is maybe start looking are standard racing bodywork so that you could pick up a set instead of custom fitting something. IE you can work the body mounting points into the frame you have.

Maybe this will be the next step for our university team in a year or two... Looking forward to seeing this play out.

Oh and that wheelbase seems very big...its going to negatively effect turning abilities.

[Jay64]

That wheel base is only about 1" longer than a 2004 GSXR 1000. My '04 turned pretty good.

[Nuts&Volts]

That wheel base is only about 1" longer than a 2004 GSXR 1000. My '04 turned pretty good.

Well there you go, much better than my guess

I think its more if I was getting my own custom frame I would try to keep the wheelbase short, weight forward, motor inside swingarm pivot and battery space as square as possible. I don't have enough experience to attaching know just theory stuff mainly.

[Farfle]

Not sure how applicable this design is to you, but heres what I ended up doing to solve the big motor small bike conundrum.

[jonescg]

Awesome stuff! Only question is, will the bike still roll with the motor removed and is the install of the motor less than an hours work? That is if you are still thinking you want to dual purpose the motor....

That's kind of what I'm getting at with the bit outriggers on the perimeter of the motor. This reduces the number of holes you need to line up from 16 to 4, and allows for better placement in the frame. Theoretically I should be able to jack the motor up to take it's weight, undo the 4 x M14 bolts and lower it down.

If I were you I would leave a bit of extra space for adding more batteries or a little bit different size pack in case you need to upgrade or change in the future. Looks like you are already going somewhat swappable pack similar' to RIpperton's.

Yep, Danny's batteries were an inspiration. However I will be making mine conveniently removable, as opposed to 'swappable'. Voltron I gave me the shits (amongst many other reasons) cause I had to unbolt every single termination and remove the sub-packs just to get at the motor bolts. If you need to work on the bike you can simply unbolt the pack and hoist it all out in one go. I think the pack size is good; its dimensions can go higher without ill-effect, but I'm relying on the fact that cells will increase in energy density as funds and time permits, so keeping the same ~80 kg unit is preferable. Currently settled on a 168s,3p pack, giving about 10 kWh. Oh, and it's going into a crashproof, waterproof Delrin box. Unlike Danny's which would dissolve or self-immolate if it ever got wet or damaged.

Last thing is maybe start looking are standard racing bodywork so that you could pick up a set instead of custom fitting something. IE you can work the body mounting points into the frame you have.
Maybe this will be the next step for our university team in a year or two... Looking forward to seeing this play out.
Oh and that wheelbase seems very big...its going to negatively effect turning abilities.

We should be able to fit standard 1000 cc race glass to it, and Randy will add lugs and bolts where needed. The bike is longer than I'd like it to be, but they will determine the ideal wheelbase from the rake and trail. It needs to be a bit long because the swingarm, motor, motor cooling outlets (need ~25 mm clearance) and the battery pack all add up in length quite quickly.

Farfle, I did look at mounting the motor in the swingarm, but a 380 mm diameter motor is huge! I reckon if they traded diameter for width you might have a better arrangement, but this will work for now. The swingarm pivots need to be double-shear on both sides, meaning more precious room is being taken up, and allowing for chain clearance is a big consideration too. I'm going to be running 14:41 or thereabouts, so the chain entry and exit angles aren't too crazy.

All very exciting!

[Nuts&Volts]

Cool, cool glad you've been thinking of all these things. And definitely agree on the battery idea, they should get better and better!

[c_a]

A battery pack with 168s3p in a motorcycle is really crazy.

How do you manage the balancing? I use a battery monitor since I am working on electric bikes and I know whats going on with the lipos, I have a 24s package only.

High voltage is nice for low currents but you need so much bigger isolation and this uses a lot of room.

From my experience it is sucide do to something at home. Even big motorcycle OEMs struggling with voltages >150V to make it safe and reliable. You need a lot more safety elements, leakage current measurement etc.

The only think I can remomed is to make at least 8 packs 21s3p that will be connected in the bike to a string.

10kWh are not much, how much power do you want to use?

[jonescg]

Thanks for your concerns

The battery will be a completely self contained unit with only a pair of HV wires coming out. The contactors, fuses, shunt and loggers (CA or equivalent) will be contained within the pack. You won't be able to get 640 V out without putting 12 V in to close the contactor. All HV terminals will be fully enclosed and accessible only by removing the secondary covers.

The battery will be made from 8 stacks of 21s each. These are serviceable by disconnecting the top and bottom series connections, and sliding them out like a magazine. Each cell will have it's own set of balance wires emerging from the top of the stack where they go into a serial plug with a breakout board. I can balance three sets of 7s one at a time, and for diagnostics will use a Cell-Log 8 breakout board like the one RWAudio makes.

I'm thinking of running Method's boards, or something like it as an LVC and the HVC will trip a relay to disable the charger should a cell exceed 4.2 V. HVC can be off-board, but some kind of LVC is needed I suppose. I'll be mounting thermal sensors in each pack so I can sense if something bad is about to happen.

It's circuit racing - 8 laps of about 1:10 each or there abouts. So 10 kWh should be enough, assuming an average demand of 60 kW.

Yep, it's a lot of cells to monitor, but this is the way of the future. Volt up

[AussieJester]

I can balance three sets of 7s one at a time, and for diagnostics will use a Cell-Log 8 breakout board like the one RWAudio makes.

Firstly fantastic job on the frame design CHRiS...Regarding battery charging/balancing... I gather you will bulk charge the majority of the time?

I was thinking for the battery we will build for my new bike, since we are attaching our own balance wires, we could just use a thicker thean 'stock' size wire perhaps 13 or 14 gauge wire? and i can charge everytime via the 2x7s balance outputs on my hyperion (assuming they are isolated?) at 36v or so for each parallel pack? I see Jay is pumping 8amps? IIRC through stock turnigy balance wires with his 'new' balance charger gizzmo?... just a thought, this aint my strong point i so appreciate the help with the battery side of things...


all the ebst with the new race bike anyayz buddy..

KiM