Brushless controller tuning modifications

[MrKang]

After a succesful tweak with the controller i'm starting to setup my battery configuration.
As you can see here below my plan is first to have a 21S6P config for driving.
I have all parts together to connect all balancing cables together and therefor have a more reliable pack.
Also it gives me the oppertunity to charge them with my 3 lipo balancers at once instead of 6 times when they are all single connected.

I will update with more pictures. yesterday i just finished the 6P board for my 14.8V pack. it all worked well. tonight i'm doing the 18.5 board.

[MrKang]

I opened up my controller to see what's inside and which FET's are used.



As you can see, they are P75N75 type of fet's: now my question is..should i upgrade them with he IRF type which can handle 100V ?
My lipo's will give 77.7V on nominal load. But fully charged i think it wil be arround 85V. Can this do harm to the P75N75 Fet's?



Also i soldered the shuntwires a bit to get a bit more power.On the picture you see i didn't do it yet..but now i soldered it halfway over.





The Flashrom which is used can be programmed i think..i looked at topic : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7361#p110932
and this controller look a lot like an infineon controller. Is it possible to read out the settings ?



Or can you only dump a new setting to it not knowing which parameters it had programmed on it ?
Yesterday i had finished the balance boards for all my lipo's. i allready tested it on my lipo charger.
Now i can charge them as a whole unit instead of charging them piece by piece.
Next weekend i'm gonna switch the new controller with the old one and let you know if there is any improvement in speed etc.

[dnmun]

other people have run the 75fn75 at 72V lifepo4. i had 90.6V on them for a few seconds, no load.

i think you should try it and if they blow up then go to 4110s.

[MrKang]

Hi dnum, i will test it first on my 77.7 lipo setup..i think this will be ok.

I just received my t-connecors from italy. 20F + 20M with heatsinktubes (dunno the name in US) they were only 15,40 euro!


Then i will make all neccesary cables to parralel all my 22.2V lipo's. I allready did the 14.8 and the 18.5 including balance wires.
I now can easily charge them with one lipo balancer instead of 2 times each 3 pieces. So that's a real progress in charging time.

Tonight i will desolder my 22.2 lipo's which were connected in serie. Because i want them also to be wired on the balance connectors in parralel
it's safer to not do that in serie mode. i allready had a litle bang on on of the T-connectors (14.8 and 18.5) when i wanted to connect them in serie while the balance wires were connected parralel. So now each lipo stack will be seperately be connected and finally i all connect them in series.

Yesterday i pulled out the DC/DC convertor to see what's inside. Because of the higher voltage i'm gonna use i don't want a broken DC convertor while riding and then suddenly my lights go off.



As you can see it's rated for 48 to 60 volts.



When i took a closer look on the input wire i saw that there was one capacitor with a value of 63V.



I removed that one and replaced it for a 400V 100uF which i desoldered from a old AC/DC power supply.
Than i tested it with some lipo's and measured the amperes. it could take 85 volts now and it draw on no load aprox. 20ma
I will continue tommorow when i replace the controller and take it for a test drive.
I will check my lipopack with a 6S wireless lipo checker i bought from hobbycity. that's a nice gadget i can implant later on my dashboard of the scooter.



Here tested with a 3S lipo

I will make a video and have a GPS measurement while driving for actual speed.
This is my GPS setup. i planned to use both devices. One is a WinCE5.0 running Igo8.0 and the other one is a GPS alert gadget.
I will try to film it with my Kodak Zi6 pocket cam


keep you updated

[dragonfire]

great project, i will read over this thread again when having more time this evening.

i like the homebreed pack connectors but would liek to check more details about the actual balancing ( or is it in the packs?), this wireless battery monitor is pretty nice, too.


some short questions ahead:

can you name the yource of the italian t-connectors, please ?
The 750 watt bosch motor you are running on 48 volts, which model is it (is it of a MZ Charly and if so, how is the result on it of 48v and without the stock e-box´es "speed governor" )?

as for overvolting these 800 watt scooters, the next version should be a "gecko "( aka Yasea/ China, but these are ok quality and available on ebay up from like 250€ with degraded batterie but few use only)-scooter with 1500 watts stock.

take care, everything over 0.2ah and 50 volts can end up leathal.

About the old planning of another old thread, i bounced the buildup of the formerly 250 watts unite-powered scooter but still intend to upgrade the pocketbike, but this will be a rather unspectacular project and the motor mount is still undefined (unite 1000 watts motor on ecrazyman 36v 800 watt controller + 7 x 6v10ah sla´s and for recharge a oldstyle goped hoverboard charger (the hardtire hoverboards came stock with 4x6v batteries in series);
- do you know if ecrazyman has a website other than the ebay-shop to check for the controller you have there and maybe a 1000w version for that project ? )


you really got bite by the electric bug

[MrKang]

can you name the yource of the italian t-connectors, please ?
Just looked it up again and he is on vacation or stopped selling it...on ebay it is in italian language..
but i found one which is even a bit cheaper in hongkong on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.nl/SOLAR-Deans-Style-T-Plug-Connectors-10pair-Lipo-T-plug_W0QQitemZ130339210263QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRadio_Control_Vehicles?hash=item1e58d28417

The 750 watt bosch motor you are running on 48 volts, which model is it (is it of a MZ Charly and if so, how is the result on it of 48v and without the stock e-box´es "speed governor" )?

It's a MZ Charly and after upgrading it with a 36V controller with 44.4 Lipo power it will blow you off your saddle when you hit that throttle at once!!


as for overvolting these 800 watt scooters, the next version should be a "gecko "( aka Yasea/ China, but these are ok quality and available on ebay up from like 250€ with degraded batterie but few use only)-scooter with 1500 watts stock.

take care, everything over 0.2ah and 50 volts can end up leathal.

I used to be a electronics repair engineer....i like voltages beween 220 and 15KV...hehehe

About the old planning of another old thread, i bounced the buildup of the formerly 250 watts unite-powered scooter but still intend to upgrade the pocketbike, but this will be a rather unspectacular project and the motor mount is still undefined (unite 1000 watts motor on ecrazyman 36v 800 watt controller + 7 x 6v10ah sla´s and for recharge a oldstyle goped hoverboard charger (the hardtire hoverboards came stock with 4x6v batteries in series);
- do you know if ecrazyman has a website other than the ebay-shop to check for the controller you have there and maybe a 1000w version for that project ? )

I bought the controller at ebay http://stores.shop.ebay.nl/Mini-Bike-Atv-Quad-Scooter-Parts__W0QQ_armrsZ1

you really got bite by the electric bug

Thanks for following my project!

[dragonfire]

is there a thread about your charly-conversion, too ?
i am mostly interrested in a good onboard charger and a "proven-working" choice about the drive controller and maybe needed new throttle.

just courious, did you try to find a taller motor sproket for that motor ( and where able to locate one ) ? It allready spinds pretty high at 25 Km/h so the way to more speed seems to enclose that option, too ? at least, id i decide to run your combo using the 12v 14ah batteries, what kind of range can one expect approximately ? as these controllers restrict maximum ampere draw at pretty low levels i could get a standard lipo pack with builtin balancer for these most likely and which charger would you recommend for a onboard-device ?

I am about to go to barcelona for some months but would not take the charly with me as it´s too slow and get a Yasea-Scooter instead 8 and self-upgrde that setup to lifepo), but if i can upgrade the charly easily and "hidden" this(foldable and uncushioned little gem ( the Charly) will come with me to there as for an evening-hours project.

[MrKang]

is there a thread about your charly-conversion, too ?.

I have it documented on here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10110

I used the same motor and sprocket. only upgraded the controller to 36V with modifications and the batteries to 44.4 Lipo (12S6P)
I still have tocharge the lipo's with a balancer. so i haven't got a simple charge plug. i still have to carry out the Lipo pack and charge it at home.

Good luck upgrading !

[MrKang]

This morning i started to combine all my 22.2V lipo's onto two 6P packs.
My working table like all hobbiest....messy

All packs desoldered , becaue they were first connected two in serie. and now i had to make them single again.

Then made 2 packs of 6P

I made the 6S balance boards

and then connected and tested the min-max voltage between the lowest and highest cell.

pack 1

and pack 2

also checked the 18.5 pack


so with all 4 packs i'm ready to build them in...didn't know if it will fit the coverseat...

They all fitted well. did a short test and noticed that the controller shutsdown.
i think the voltage was to high because of the fully loaded lipo's
the total voltage was almost 90Volts...so i removed my smallest pack of 14.8V
Which resulted in a total of 72 volts.

I went for a little test run and noticed the torque power and the acceleration!
Wow...but when i wanted to test the speed it stopped around 46km/h
The controller shuts down momentarely and then i could drive again.

it's like if the voltage was dropped because of the power it took form the lipo's
didn't tested that.. but i think when you have full power out of those lipo's
the voltage goes down to (22 + 22 + 18 = 62V) maybe even lower...that's why the controller
cuts of the power to protect it.

Is there a way to avoid that auto shut down ? Can i set the LVC to a lower point ?
I looked at the infineon thread howto do that but my PCB is not simmilar to that one.

I will give it another spin tommorrow .then i will retry it with all the packs.
I discharged the 14.8 pack so that the total output of all four will not be too high.

Keep you posted.

[MrKang]

Well this morning i placed the 14.8V pack and the controlelr could handle the voltage now. it didn't shutdown
even at high speeds it didn't. my top speed for this morning was 52km/h because i didn't have my helmet on. so i was a bit affraid if the police went by.
I will take it this afternoon for another spin to see what the maximum speed will be.

But for now...i'm very satisfied !

[MrKang]

I took it for a spin with all packs
I put a wireless camera on my helmet and recorded it.you can see the pseed on the gps. it's recorder 15fps so the values on the gps
are sometime a bit weird looking.
I reached 61km/h tops.

here's the video

[dnmun]

your controller may be shutting down because the voltage to the voltage regulator may be too high. you need to go see what the input and output of the 12V regulator is when it has all the packs in place.

or you could use the converter like richard outlined in his thread. find one that uses 120 V AC, and then open it up and attach the top of your 88V pack to the output of the rectifier bridge on the input of the charging brick (AC adapter). you can then use the output from the charging brick to feed the input to your voltage regulator if it is above 12-13V, up to 18V is ok too. if you can only get 12V out of the AC adapter then just bypass the votage regulator and put your connections right on the 12V rail where the capacitor is and use that for your controller current, and put it on a switch to keep from discharging your pack when it is not in use. you actually could get away with taking a 14-15V output and using it directly, but it is best to go through the regulator.

you will have to deal with the LVC though, if you use a DC converter source for your controller current. but you can make a resistor bridge off the 5V rail to the LVC resistor to keep the LVC signal line high enuff that it doesn't shut down. the setpoint is about 2.58mV on the infineon 846 chip.

also you can modify your current DC converter by finding the Vin to the oscillator pwm IC controller in that 8 pin package. look up the spec sheet and find Vin on the oscillator IC. then follow the trace on that pin back towards the input to the transformer and you will find a resistor in that line which you can change (decrease the resistor to increase the current through it to Vin) and that may allow the oscillator to start up if it sees a higher voltage on the internal voltage divider inside the Vin pin input.

[MrKang]

or you could use the converter like richard outlined in his thread. find one that uses 120 V AC, and then open it up and attach the top of your 88V pack to the output of the rectifier bridge on the input of the charging brick (AC adapter). you can then use the output from the charging brick to feed the input to your voltage regulator if it is above 12-13V, up to 18V is ok too. if you can only get 12V out of the AC adapter then just bypass the votage regulator and put your connections right on the 12V rail where the capacitor is and use that for your controller current, and put it on a switch to keep from discharging your pack when it is not in use. you actually could get away with taking a 14-15V output and using it directly, but it is best to go through the regulator.

Do you mean something like this ?


and in the 72v controller it will be connected straight to the LM317 which makes a clean 12V and 5V ?

[MrKang]

My next project will be a cell monitor for my lipo's on my instrumentspanel.
You maybe know the cell-log 8S from hobbycity. They are perfect to do the job and give it a nice look.



once opened you only have a pcb with the lcd attached.



Then i will put those 3 and mount them together on another pcb board and connect it to a 25DB connector which goes
to the battery compartment under the seat.



I then have to cut the instruments panel of my scooter to fit those tiny screens. and cover it up with some
seethrough watertight plastic.



I allready ordered 2 more of these cell-logs. So keep you updated with this project

[dnmun]

yes, your power lines to the FETs is separate from the controller current line. the controller current normally goes through those big power resistors to drop some voltage before it enters the voltage regulator. if the power resistor is too low in value then the voltage on your voltage regulator could be too high and that pulls the 12V and 5V rails up inside, which might cause the controller to shut down. usually they just blow up and smoke a lot.

if you use the idea from richard of opening up a regular AC adapter for charging a laptop or other mid voltage range device, then you can use the output from your high voltage battery and attach that voltage right inside the AC adapter where the rectifier diodes normally have output. since you don't have AC then you need to get right to the rectified side of the diodes to make your connection from the battery.

that voltage will then drive the oscillator circuit in the switch mode power supply and the AC adapter then will become a DC-DC converter producing DC volts identical to its rating from normal AC operation. usually 19V for a laptop.

then you would use this 19V output and connect that directly to the input side of the LM317T and that would then create the normal 12V and 5V circuit currents.

the problem with using a separate source than the main Vcc for the input is that the LVC resistor divider bridge is also taking it's high lead voltage off of the Vcc and if you have no voltage there, then the microprocessor will shut down because it needs a voltage on that LVC detect pin to operate.

you can defeat this, and use your DC converter, if you can make a new bridge that runs from the 5V rail over to the top of R12. on the infineon this resistor to ground is 1200ohm and the high side of the bridge is 17megohm for a cutoff at 30.5V of about 2.6mV to the pin on the microprocessor. so if you use 5V, use a resistor smaller than (5/30.5)x17Megohm or smaller than 2.78megohm.

your processor may be different and have a different processor and inputs, but the idea would be the same for any processor that needed to have fixed replacement voltage for the LVC.

track it down and we can help, richard knows this stuff better than me though.

[MrKang]

yes, your power lines to the FETs is separate from the controller current line. the controller current normally goes through those big power resistors to drop some voltage before it enters the voltage regulator. if the power resistor is too low in value then the voltage on your voltage regulator could be too high and that pulls the 12V and 5V rails up inside, which might cause the controller to shut down. usually they just blow up and smoke a lot.

I'm trying to find out which resistors i have to replace around the LM317 on my board.

Test 2: the old 48 controller is a infineon one! i opened it up and saw the exact type of the thread: Infineon Controller Technical (by knuckles)
so i will order more powerfull FET's and some new caps. and resistors which i also be needing for this controller.

Question: which FET's should i get. they talked about the IRFB4310 or the 4110s you'd adviced.

And is it possible to read out the flash prom which parameters it's now programmed with ? or should i just flash it with the parameters you all advice in the forum? i'm currious what these parameters now are set on with this 48V config. before i change them with new ones.

[dnmun]

you may wanna see if you can run with the p75fn75 FETs you have now. the bigger concern is the caps, which have to be upgraded since they are all 63V parts i think. but maybe the 48V controller had the 100V caps.

[vanilla ice]

Neat project! Looks like "dean's connectors" in that bag you got there.

You're running a 24ah pack? How many amps are you pulling? What kind of lipo are you using? If its like the saggy economy lipo I have, that could be the reason your scoot is cutting out maybe.

[MrKang]

you may wanna see if you can run with the p75fn75 FETs you have now. the bigger concern is the caps, which have to be upgraded since they are all 63V parts i think. but maybe the 48V controller had the 100V caps.

I think we are confusing the controllers. The one you see in this thread is the new one . the caps are all 1000uf/100V

It's the one i removed out of the scooter which was a 48V type i'm gonna modify with 4110s from methods and new caps 100V types.

[MrKang]

Neat project! Looks like "dean's connectors" in that bag you got there.

You're running a 24ah pack? How many amps are you pulling? What kind of lipo are you using? If its like the saggy economy lipo I have, that could be the reason your scoot is cutting out maybe.

Thanks Bro!

I use Dean's connectors on every lipo pack. and about the amps...haven't checked that because my Watt's Up meter only run's on 60V max.
(at least i think....) dunno anyone tried higher voltages ...

I'm gonna place a 50A shunt to measure what it's pulling out of those lipo's

The first shutdown was because of the DC/DC convertor !! that one died when it got 87Volts!
Then my 120A/12V circuit breaker went off...i first thought it was my controller...but in fact it was the DC/DC convertor which was blown up.
Now i did a bypass with a seperate lipo of 14.8 to provide the power for my lights etc.

After doing that i had no more problem connecting all lipo's fully charged on the controller! no shutdowns !

The shutdown in my first testrun was because i had installed a lipo pak with only 72 volts ( fully charged!)
so when it gets a load from the hub motor it went down to 64V and that's why the controller shutted off.

I will give a new update with some grphs how the lipo's are holding and how much ampere i use.

[vanilla ice]

Looks like its the ebay ecp/akku lipo? 2p mine does drop lots of volts under load, wasn't sure it would do it at your 6p tho. It'd be great if you could post what kind of amps you're pulling vs. how many volts you drop. This lipo is really great ah per $ but nobody has posted test results on its performance. I had assumed it was maybe 4c capable even though it is advertised as 15c. Now I'm starting to think more like a real 2c.. anyway when my HC watt meter comes in I will be able to compare notes.

[MrKang]

I used at first ECpower lipo's from Ebay, then i switched to another lipo brand "WinForce" but they are all look-a-likes.

i did a test run today to see what one of my 6S6P packs did in performance at high speed.

This the graph showing the voltages from all 6 cells and the total voltage.


a short report with all min-max values are:

Voltage accu
Maximum value: 25,089 at position 2
Minimum value: 21,943 at position 274
Range: 3,146
Average: 24,435

Cell 1
Maximum value: 4,181 at position 0
Minimum value: 3,648 at position 274
Range: 0,533
Average: 4,07

Cell 2
Maximum value: 4,183 at position 0
Minimum value: 3,671 at position 274
Range: 0,512
Average: 4,078

Cell 3
Maximum value: 4,183 at position 0
Minimum value: 3,668 at position 274
Range: 0,515
Average: 4,075

Cell 4
Maximum value: 4,184 at position 0
Minimum value: 3,682 at position 274
Range: 0,502
Average: 4,08

Cell 5
Maximum value: 4,177 at position 2
Minimum value: 3,638 at position 274
Range: 0,539
Average: 4,064

Cell 6
Maximum value: 4,181 at position 0
Minimum value: 3,636 at position 274
Range: 0,545
Average: 4,067

[vanilla ice]

Nice graph! That is the output from the 8s turnigy monitor? How many amps were you pulling at "position 274."

[MrKang]

Nice graph! That is the output from the 8s turnigy monitor? How many amps were you pulling at "position 274."

This runs on a brushless hub motor. and i measured just one of the 4 packs (6S + 6S + 5S + 4S)
i still have to connect my shunt and measure the amps...i think i will do that in the weekend.
because when i'm back from work..it's to dark to do some measurments etc.

[vanilla ice]

Any updates? I'm really curious about the amps vs. voltage drop on these affordable lipo packs.. 2.25Wh per dollar shipped lipo is a hard to resist deal.