Motorcycle Hub Motor Part 2

[slayer]

Can t wait

[patrickza]

With 144V Headway and 600 amp controller it should be impressive!

What controller is he going to be running Doc?

[Doctorbass]

With 144V Headway and 600 amp controller it should be impressive!

What controller is he going to be running Doc?

90% probable that it will be the Kelly 144V 600A... the 800A is way too expensive!! for 200A more..

300A phase current per motor will be perfect!.. since i already drive 300A burst on my X5... and that a single Enertrac is like a dual X5... so that's like 150A phase current per X5..... not bad!

and their winding is like a 5302.. so the resistive loss will be minimal... we hope that the controller should not have a hard time to drive the equivalent of 4 parallel 5302 with the DU602 (our dual enertrack MH602 in the same hub)

Doc

[markcycle]

Jon got a chance to get the Catavolt bike onto a Dyno

Dual 602 motors in a 17 inch wheel
144 volt battery pack

[Doctorbass]

Interesting data!

According to the graph that's 51hp max or it's 38kW output at the wheel.

(usually, low winding like the 02 are more efficient due to less resistive loss) so if the motor is around 85% efficient, that mean the input power is around

45kW. And, at 144V, that's 312 amps ( battery current), meaning aroud 780A phase current... so i guess he is using the Kelly 800A ?

Doc

[Hugues]

Hi Mark, Doc,

I like these numbers !

I'm almost finished with my technical file and i should present it to the local DOT this coming week,
i hope it's gonna be ok.

Mark: i measure the whole thing today as agreed on the phone last this week, I'm gonna send you the data soon.

[markcycle]

More Dyno testing

[SamRam]

I require this hub motor!
Anyone happen to know where to get the dual hub version at?

Thanks

Sam

[Jeremy Harris]

I require this hub motor!
Anyone happen to know where to get the dual hub version at?

Thanks

Sam

You could try contacting Mark at the URL he gave in the post immediately above this: http://www.enertrac.net/ ............

[Doctorbass]

Our great electric motorcycle using enertrac motor is not 99% finished.

We did many tests and it was good esxcept that the stall start power is generating vibration and make the 2000$ Kelly controller to reset and genrate few codes.. We investigate that for 3 weeks and communicated with Fany from kelly and made hours of test and sent pictures and video to her to proove that our connections phase and hal sensor connections was good. we used scopes to see teh waveform, the hall sensor tester, and also tested with another controller ( infineon) to try to proove that the motor is ok. We also examined how the phase of the two stator were aligned and with a Tecktronic scope it just look like perfect alignment.. ( congrat to Mark for that)

Problem is that without load the motor run fine and under load and at high speed it run fine too but at low speed wich require very high phase current, the controller is having hard time we think... not to mention that we also upgraded the firmware for a lastest version but it did not solved the low speed vibration problem.

It is now really difficult to confirm that the kelly KHB serie is compativle with the dual Enertrac since the controller finally blown!

It was hard to get Fany to agree to have our controller returned and to get one under warranty but we finally succeded.

We just hope the new controoller will be ok

i just worrie that the dual 602 might be too difficult to drive at low speed for that 600A controller!

Strange thingt is that during the use of the regen, the motor run very smooth!!! but not on the forward direction...
John that race in the TTXGP is having the EXACT setup as we have ( dual 602, 48s2p A123 pouch, kelly 144V 600A).. but HE IS USING TWO CONTROLLER.. one for each stator of the dual nertrac....,... Yes.. 4000$ of controller!!!

Our project total investment is just at 12 000 $ and we thing we used the top quality and performance components ... i admit that if we would need spending for 2nd controller it would be killing us!!

Let say that a 1500$ DC brushed controller and two agni 95R cost less and give a little more power....

We just hope that this great advanture of using hub motor is not turning into a nightmare... we keep confident that the new controller will solve the problem.

I just remember how a 5302 is a controller killer on our ebikes.. .. we have the equivalent of 2 in parallel Dohhhh!

see our project here: http://www.evalbum.com/3931

Thanks you Mark for the big help to try debuging our controller-hub motor issue. we will wait to receive the new controller and will post updates

Doc

[SamRam]

I would totally help fund a project like this for possible old parts and testing!
I have budget about 15K for this bobber build of mine, and I feel this dual hub could be neat when pounded with the right amount of power.
I have to make some measurements, but with the hub motor I could fit a lot of battery space in this GS 1000 frame.
Maybe 15Kw/h if I find the right pack configuration.

Hopefully working on a similar project soon!

Sam

[Doctorbass]

I would totally help fund a project like this for possible old parts and testing!
I have budget about 15K for this bobber build of mine, and I feel this dual hub could be neat when pounded with the right amount of power.
I have to make some measurements, but with the hub motor I could fit a lot of battery space in this GS 1000 frame.
Maybe 15Kw/h if I find the right pack configuration.

Hopefully working on a similar project soon!

Sam

That wold be great Sam, Just ensure to get two controller of 600A if you choose the DU-602 hub motor.. yes.. that's 4000$ of controller but apparently it's the only solution to have it work.

otherwise choose the DU-603 wich is easy on the phase current and would require only one controller

it'a a guess from our experience....


Also.. consider 50% of the total price inparts building like cnc, welding, aluminum parts, rework and adaptor.. etc... it's surprising how much time and money that portion of the project can take!!!

[hillzofvalp]

30Wh/mile ain't bad there, doc

[Biff]

Has anyone tried running this motor with a Sevcon Gen 4?

[Doctorbass]

Has anyone tried running this motor with a Sevcon Gen 4?

nobody i think ... problem is that for decent speed even if you are using the 602, you would need 120V+...

These motor need VOLTS to run on the highway... Under load it's about 1km/h per volt with standard motorcycle wheel size.

Sevcon are not very high voltage i think ? 96V 120Vmax ?.

Doc

[Biff]

Has anyone tried running this motor with a Sevcon Gen 4?

nobody i think ... problem is that for decent speed even if you are using the 602, you would need 120V+...

These motor need VOLTS to run on the highway... Under load it's about 1km/h per volt with standard motorcycle wheel size.

Sevcon are not very high voltage i think ? 96V 120Vmax ?.

Doc

There are new 135V sevcon Gen4's. The motor could be wound with fewer turns to operate with the more available 80V (good to 120 max battery voltage) sevcon.

-ryan

[Doctorbass]

Has anyone tried running this motor with a Sevcon Gen 4?

nobody i think ... problem is that for decent speed even if you are using the 602, you would need 120V+...

These motor need VOLTS to run on the highway... Under load it's about 1km/h per volt with standard motorcycle wheel size.

Sevcon are not very high voltage i think ? 96V 120Vmax ?.

Doc

There are new 135V sevcon Gen4's. The motor could be wound with fewer turns to operate with the more available 80V (good to 120 max battery voltage) sevcon.

-ryan

The 602 fastest enertrac is already 2 turn winding.. we already requested to get 1 turn winding but it's not possible.
anyway at 2 turn it's already hard for the controller to drive it so i can't imagine with one turn!.. Put a dead short across the 3 phase and it would be the same


Doc

[Biff]

Farfle has his double wide hub motor tuned pretty well up to 3000 RPM at 100V. The Enertrac is a Double - Double wide Crystalite 5304 or something like that isn't it? getting 1000 RPM out of that should be a snap. What is the Kv of the Enertrac 602? I think I could get really good performance from something in the range of 12 or 10RPM/V. The field weakening on the Sevcon is really good, much better than the Kelly if the kelly has it at all, so it might work well at 100V nominal with the regular "80V" Gen 4.

-ryan

[Doctorbass]

Farfle has his double wide hub motor tuned pretty well up to 3000 RPM at 100V. The Enertrac is a Double - Double wide Crystalite 5304 or something like that isn't it? getting 1000 RPM out of that should be a snap. What is the Kv of the Enertrac 602? I think I could get really good performance from something in the range of 12 or 10RPM/V. The field weakening on the Sevcon is really good, much better than the Kelly if the kelly has it at all, so it might work well at 100V nominal with the regular "80V" Gen 4.

-ryan

Ryan,

The Enertrac MH-602 is 10rpm per volt and is 2 turn winding hub motor just like the 5302 but instead of having 32mm wide stator and magnet it is 60mm. The Du-602, wich is the dual enertrac is a dual MH-602 in the same hub but the stator are not joined together.. they are side by side on teh same shaft.

I have read that as the stator width is increasing ( for the same winding turn) , the rpm per volt decrease so the rpm per volt of a 5302 of 32mm stator width and the rpm per volt of a mh or du-602 ( 60mm stator) is not the same rpm per volt since the 60mm stator is 28mm wider. and i tend to believe it's true.

Doc

[steveo]

Doc you get the new kelly installed?

Guess what new motor im getting for the kmx or bike hehehe

I finally will have a use for my 36fet controller!

[Doctorbass]

Doc you get the new kelly installed?

Guess what new motor im getting for the kmx or bike hehehe

I finally will have a use for my 36fet controller!

Hi Steveo,

The new controller is installed and seem to work fine, but we decided to go step by step again with this new controller. Phase current is still at 60% and batt current at 80% and no regen at the moment.

I am thinking that the kelly dont like high KV motor like the 5302 or 602.. even the 5303 too.. the low rpm work erratic with alot of pulse and motor vibration.. but once you get around 40% of full speed) it begin to be smooth.

The infineon are not like that.. at any rpm they are smooth... i wonder why the 2000$ kelly are like that....

The Voltron on the TTXGP are using two kelly of 2000$ to drive the DU-602... one per stator... and i wonder if it would not be more smooth... but that's expensive... think about it.. 4000$ of controller to be able to drive the DU-602 with smoothness at any speed....



So my guess is that you plan to use the MH602 or MH603 on the kmx ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

If so.. with the 36 fets it will be a real beast!!!

that will be close to the acceleration Luke is getting on his deathbike i guess

keep us updated!!

That look really interesting!!

Doc

[steveo]

Doc you get the new kelly installed?

Guess what new motor im getting for the kmx or bike hehehe

I finally will have a use for my 36fet controller!

Hi Steveo,

The new controller is installed and seem to work fine, but we decided to go step by step again with this new controller. Phase current is still at 60% and batt current at 80% and no regen at the moment.

I am thinking that the kelly dont like high KV motor like the 5302 or 602.. even the 5303 too.. the low rpm work erratic with alot of pulse and motor vibration.. but once you get around 40% of full speed) it begin to be smooth.

The infineon are not like that.. at any rpm they are smooth... i wonder why the 2000$ kelly are like that....

The Voltron on the TTXGP are using two kelly of 2000$ to drive the DU-602... one per stator... and i wonder if it would not be more smooth... but that's expensive... think about it.. 4000$ of controller to be able to drive the DU-602 with smoothness at any speed....



So my guess is that you plan to use the MH602 or MH603 on the kmx ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

If so.. with the 36 fets it will be a real beast!!!

that will be close to the acceleration Luke is getting on his deathbike i guess

keep us updated!!

That look really interesting!!

Doc

You guessed correct, i think about it for a while to spend 695$ for x54 or grey borg motor at rougly same price... They i said to myself.. If im spending this much might as well go x6..

I havnt decided if it will go on the kmx or if i rebuild a new bike for myself... I havnt had my own ebike in a while... Just been rollin the kmx more

More relaxed in kmx... More space to mount everything... Especially the 32s1p a123 battery

I still wana drop a x54 on the kmx and save the x6 for a nice high power bike... I will attempt to mount some sort of gear so it can be "ebike hub motor" ... Maybe a 500w 32km/h sticker somewhere lol

I already extended the kmx frame 8" this year... If i put x6 i will need to widen dropouts...

I may try to get a impulse bike that we are building at the shop for use of the x6... All we would need to do is make wider swing arm and it should mount

Ill let you know my progress

What rim & tire you recommend for best performance doc?

I was thinking 16" rim... I may go 17" because i can get free rim.. Spokes... And 17 x 3.0 tire... But this tire size is still to big imo.... It will be about 23" in diameter... I want to stay under 20"

Steveo

[Doctorbass]

Doc you get the new kelly installed?

Guess what new motor im getting for the kmx or bike hehehe

I finally will have a use for my 36fet controller!

Hi Steveo,

The new controller is installed and seem to work fine, but we decided to go step by step again with this new controller. Phase current is still at 60% and batt current at 80% and no regen at the moment.

I am thinking that the kelly dont like high KV motor like the 5302 or 602.. even the 5303 too.. the low rpm work erratic with alot of pulse and motor vibration.. but once you get around 40% of full speed) it begin to be smooth.

The infineon are not like that.. at any rpm they are smooth... i wonder why the 2000$ kelly are like that....

The Voltron on the TTXGP are using two kelly of 2000$ to drive the DU-602... one per stator... and i wonder if it would not be more smooth... but that's expensive... think about it.. 4000$ of controller to be able to drive the DU-602 with smoothness at any speed....



So my guess is that you plan to use the MH602 or MH603 on the kmx ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

If so.. with the 36 fets it will be a real beast!!!

that will be close to the acceleration Luke is getting on his deathbike i guess

keep us updated!!

That look really interesting!!

Doc

You guessed correct, i think about it for a while to spend 695$ for x54 or grey borg motor at rougly same price... They i said to myself.. If im spending this much might as well go x6..

I havnt decided if it will go on the kmx or if i rebuild a new bike for myself... I havnt had my own ebike in a while... Just been rollin the kmx more

More relaxed in kmx... More space to mount everything... Especially the 32s1p a123 battery

I still wana drop a x54 on the kmx and save the x6 for a nice high power bike... I will attempt to mount some sort of gear so it can be "ebike hub motor" ... Maybe a 500w 32km/h sticker somewhere lol

I already extended the kmx frame 8" this year... If i put x6 i will need to widen dropouts...

I may try to get a impulse bike that we are building at the shop for use of the x6... All we would need to do is make wider swing arm and it should mount

Ill let you know my progress

What rim & tire you recommend for best performance doc?

I was thinking 16" rim... I may go 17" because i can get free rim.. Spokes... And 17 x 3.0 tire... But this tire size is still to big imo.... It will be about 23" in diameter... I want to stay under 20"

Steveo

Nice !!

I will also run 23s 1p A123 20Ah on my KMX (but for this winter). The A123 are great at low temp. BUt it will be using my 2 x 16s1p pack i will build for my zero battery upgrade. It is using 14s LiMn so it match perfectly the 16s LiFePO4 voltages so i will be able to add 2 x 16s1p in parallel or to use with my KMX in 32s1p.

As for the tire. the 16" rim that ypedal is selling are really nice for X53 and X54 they are 44mm wide and can take the 16" motorcycle tire perfectly too as well as the normal 20" bicycle tires, but i dont know if it's strong enough for a X6... I got these rims from ypedal.. they was made for the old 2008 zero motorcycles i think.

I'm using some 16 x 3.5" tire on my kmx and they are really tight... like just 1/8" play on each side from the frame but ok.

Doc

[Jay64]

Has anyone tried running this motor with a Sevcon Gen 4?

Does anyone on here know how to get a Sevcon Gen 4 programmed correctly to actually work? I paid Electric motorsports an extra $1000 to program the one I got from them and they can't get it to run right.

[hillzofvalp]

Nice !!

I will also run 23s 1p A123 20Ah on my KMX (but for this winter). The A123 are great at low temp. BUt it will be using my 2 x 16s1p pack i will build for my zero battery upgrade. It is using 14s LiMn so it match perfectly the 16s LiFePO4 voltages so i will be able to add 2 x 16s1p in parallel or to use with my KMX in 32s1p.
Doc

Can u elaborate on you experience with a123 in low temperature climate? I'm sort of hesitant to use them or store them in the cold,.. How do u care for your pack in the winter?