jonescg's NEW electric racebike BUILD thread!

[markcycle]

The Catavolt team is using a dual hub motor with "some" success... I do NOT wish to start a "this motor vs. That motor" debate. But I have had nothing but great customer support when working with the Enertrac organization. Granted I did NOT build a motorcycle for speed purposes.
Either way, best wishes to you in your build.
Regards
John Head

Its best to let these things play out on the track, I hate to use this phrase but it seems to apply all these people typing themselves smart, just build it and we'll see.
Next year we'll be liquid cooled and be better yet.

[jonescg]

Its best to let these things play out on the track,

Agreed We can wax lyrical about the virtues of one method over another, but until they are tested we're just filling up forum pages.

One thing that building Voltron taught me, is that people who don't build bikes are sometimes the most vocal about how things should or shouldn't be done The dual motor, one shaft thing was a classic - all these people telling me that I needed a flexible element in there, where as the flexibility was the very problem in the first place.

ANYway...

Here is a bit of a MS Paint mock-up of my opposite stacked A123 packs. Two of these would fit snugly into the engine bay of a GSXR1000 frame, but the motor would have to be lowered a bit to accommodate them.

[jonescg]

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2002-Suzuki- ... _500wt_950

Hmmmm. 2002 Gixxer thou... Could be a goer?? Needs straight forks, so there's a good $800 in addition to the $400 to get it to Perth.

[jonescg]

Well I might not have the cash to do much on the new bike, but I did score a bunch of cables from a friend's work. Look at this stuff!



I landed about 8 m of 50 mm2 cable, perfect for HV stuff, and the flexible earth strap is perfect for inter-connecting battery packs. The 6 wire core stuff will no doubt be handy for throttle wires etc. Score! Jeff said they were going to recycle it all anyway, but it's worth a lot more to me than it is to a copper recycler.

Haven't made up my mind on the Gixxer frame yet; I'd need to get a mate in Mittagong to drive down to the coast and pick it up, and that's worth a bit more than a carton of grog I think... Besides, I don't yet know what two new Agnis will cost me

[Hillhater]

What are you planning for a charger?
Will you need to recharge between heats or is it a simple one race day ?

[jonescg]

Holy thread revival Batman!

Yeah, haven't thought too much about this, but if I'm running a high voltage system I might need to rectify three-phase power to fast charge. I will be charging between sessions, absolutely. Track time is like palladium; rare and expensive! Since most races are 25-30 km long I figure 7-9 kWh is going to be enough, but space is at a premium on a bike. The big motors will drain that in no time, but as long as you come in on empty it's worth it.

I have been looking into EVO-Electric motors - they are powerful and compact, but I'm sceptical of their peak power claims. Still, should be a good place to start. Also learned that the tank bay of most litre sports bikes will barely fit one stack of A123s, so I might just have to go LiPo to make it all fit.

[jonescg]

Nothing much to report here, except I think that a mid 2000s Gixxer might have more belly-space than a Fireblade. Sad, cause the 'Blade is a much nicer bike to steer.



Might have to be one tall rack of A123 pouches, or a 400-brick wall of LiPos...

[voicecoils]

I found a good website for looking at & comparing race frames:

http://www.motorcycleframe.us/motorcycleframes.htm

Ignore the horrible website design, they have heaps of photos showing all common race bikes from various years. Some are quite hi-rez too.

2005 GSXR 600 for example:

http://motorcycleframe.us/Suz%2005%20GSXR%20600%20clear%20p2u%20pic1.jpg

[jonescg]

Thanks for the web link, Abraham. I'm finding it would be more useful if they also had the swing-arm attached, but I shouldn't be fussy.

OK, so what better things to do on a windy, rainy Perth September morn, than to draw ideas for my next bike

I have two ideas in mind - one bike that can be built fairly quickly using a pre-existing frame, and another that will be scratch built. The former will use a GSXR1000 chassis, as this seems to be the most spacious frame I can find. They are also fairly common. The bespoke frame, one where the motor is right at the pivot point, will take some serious thought, but will eventually result in a completely Japan-independent motorcycle. One for later

My friend Antti was kind enough to bring his old Gixxer frame to Winton so we could take some pictures and take a few measurements.



The battery pack I have in mind would be one hundred and forty A123 cells in series, using the opposite stacked method described above, but with two of them side by side. It makes for a 72 kg block, so a winch would be handy to put it in and out. This block would be about 300 mm wide and 360 mm long, and fit inside a Gixxer bay without too much trouble.



The motor would be slung as low as practical, and since the AFM-130 from Evo-Electric is a narrow motor, you can do just this. The reduction drive will take some thought, as there are not many points on the motor where you can bolt a driven shaft. I figure a chain would do reasonably well, and no doubt easier than a series of cogs, stealing power with each rotation. This bit of engineering will be my next project, as I can also use the outer casing of this to invent attachment points for the new stressed member (I was thinking of laser cut ally plate, but no doubt something can be welded up easy enough).

Just got to get the race-prepped bike ready to rip out all the IC bits So if anyone has a mid 2000s Gixxer race bike they wish to retire, let me know

[jonescg]

Another concern is the voltages required to run these EVO-Electric motors.

I got this response from Neville at EVO:

Apologizes for the delay in replying but I have been out of the office for the last two weeks.
The Engineering Dept has made the following comments but based on your original voltage of 420 Vdc:-
The AF-130 machines itself would give about 140Nm continuous torque, 350Nm peak torque, 60kW continuous power, 120kW peak power, which is somewhat below the values specified. Considering the dc voltage of 420Vdc under load, we would need to choose either a AF-130-3 + PM150DZ inverter, which would limit the performance drastically to 140Nm cont. torque, 220Nm peak torque (30s), 60kW cont. power, 90kW peak power (30s) or an AF-130-4 + PM150DZ inverter, which would limit the speed to 6000rpm but give higher peak torque (280Nm) and peak power (120kW). The PM150DZ inverter seems to fit into the space envelope specified (PM150: L:436 mm, W:200 mm, H:87 mm)
The problem for us is that the Rinehart DX inverter’s max dc voltage is 360 Vdc and the DZ inverter is from 500 Vdc. Your original 420 Vdc is bang in the middle of the dead zone!!!
I will have them confirm that the Rinehart PM150DZ is still okay with 500 Vdc max.
Thanks
Neville

The Rineheart controllers actually look bloody good, and they are the same ones that MotoCyzxzyzyxyz is using. It's the voltages required to run the motor to it's full potential that concern me. I can't exceed 500 V, so will I end up with a motor which is pulling excessively high currents for much of the time?
http://www.rinehartmotion.com/products.html

[jonescg]

What do you reckon? Would the extra bearing on the driven shaft be a bit of overkill? I figure I'd need some circlips or similar to make sure the shaft doesn't work it's way out...

[jonescg]

OK so a few more ideas for the jackshaft:


Sorry about the quality - graphite pencils don't show up so well. But I figure a couple of these standard bearings would suit a 25.4 mm shaft with a spline at one end to suit standard sprockets. The lower bearing would be a 'floating' bearing, meaning that it is a push fit on the shaft, and (probably?) a push fit on the outer race. This way any shaft extension due to hear won't put axial load on the bearings. I have indicated a circlip can be mounted on either the outer race, to stop the bearing from coming out, or on the shaft. Not sure which is better. The unit itself would be made from some kind of lightweight, but strong metal that doesn't expand much when hot, like aluminium But there are different grades, so I'd probably go with one that takes a thread.



The three bolt holes are M8, and probably a good 20 mm deep. The sprockets would need to clear the bolt heads, so dome heads might be OK. I figure the 10 mm plate ally can go on either side of the jackshaft mount, and attach to the M10 holes that come with the AFM130-4 motor. There aren't many bolt holes on these motors, so I might end up making them part of the main stressed member that joins the motor mounts.

Any thoughts?

[jonescg]

OK, better idea - having both sprockets on the one side will clearly put a lot of strain on the shaft, so the closer I can get it to the bearing the better. One way of doing this is to have the primary drive on one side and the secondary drive (to the rear wheel) on the other side. Also, the bolts I originally planned on using to hold the whole jackshaft assembly in place would stick out far enough to foul the chains, so I have taken on Eric's advice and arranged for them to be flush with the attachment plates so they can be welded. This means the whole assembly will come with motor mounting plates attached to it. Again, I will need to come up with a way of mounting the whole shabang in the frame of the bike, so I haven't drawn that far yet.



You will notice I have circlip fittings both on the shaft and around the outer race. Since both sides will be experiencing some serious radial loads, I figure locking them in place is a good move. One side will have to be a push-fit, while the other (primary drive?) will need to be press-fit. Otherwise I can't get the shaft in or out!

What do youse reckon this time?

[Danny Mayes]

Hey Jonescg,

Been following this a little while and am very interested in what you are creating here.

I am in Perth too bro. Am loving what you are doing for EV racing dude, it's great to see you so proactive with this cause.

WRT your jackshaft, this cir-clip is not required and will just weaken the shaft.

Jonescg Jack Shaft.jpg (82.39 KiB) Viewed 1255 times

Without it your shaft is still fully constrained so there is really no need for it.

Regards,

Danny

[jonescg]

Hey man! Yeah, I have already worked out that this one would be a bit redundant since there will be a spacer which the sprocket will be tensioned down onto anyway. I have not quite worked out how to tension the primary drive chain, but that can come a bit later. I'm thinking some double-row bearings would be a better option. Do you think aluminium would be as good a material as any? Steel would be too heavy, so I'm only using that for the jackshaft. Also, I might do away with the rounded lips on the shaft, as they are a bit more expensive and will possibly create a weak point. A tube that fits over it will probably suffice.

Thanks for the support and encouragement! Are you building your own e-racer? And if not, why not?

[Danny Mayes]

Aluminum is perfect for that, just a matter of working out what thickness...

The primary chain tension would probably be easiest from moving the motor rather than the jackshaft. moving the jackshaft would mess with your secondary chain tension...

These are good for this - http://www.smallparts.com.au/store/partslist/eccentricbushings/clampingandlocking/wide/1/ You wont get anything moving on you with these...

double row bearings will obviously handle more load for a given diameter. You can just go with bigger single row though. I guess it comes down to weight and rpm.

If you use a sleeve, it will need to be fixed to the shaft some how. would you spot weld it? I don't think it is an issue machining the shoulders onto the shaft. Otherwise just constrain the shaft with thrust bearings on either side...

Here is my build. A mini version of what you are doing http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=31705

D

[jonescg]

Batteries.

Since I plan on using a 120 kW peak motor, which will probably be running an average of 35 kW throughout the course of a 15 minute race, 9 kWh would no doubt see a throttle-happy punter like me through. So with 7-10 kWh on board as a goal, and a 360 V nominal system (seems to be what the Rhineheart motor controllers are OK with) let's see what can be arranged.

360 V means 110 LiFePO4 cells in series, or 90 LiPo cells in series.

The only LiFePO4 worth using is A123's 20 Ah cells. A 1p110S arrangement would mean a 7.2 kWh pack capable of a maximum of ~500 A discharge. It would also weigh just 55 kg. So while I might be running out of juice on the last lap, I would have got there a bit quicker since the bike would have been pretty light. This would cost about $8.5k from Mavizen, or considerably less from Cell_Man.

LiPo gives a few more options. Using some of those Haiyin 6 Ah cells, I would need 90 in series. A 5p90s arrangement would give me my 10 kWh capable of a stupendous discharge rate. They are small format, so I can fit these into a Gixxer frame with a bit of clever planning and I'd be close to 77 kg worth of cells. At $13,000 that is just way too much money.

Turnigy cells work out much cheaper, and a 5p90s arrangement with these guys would make for a 8.3 kWh pack, weigh only 59 kg and cost about ~$6k after delivery. These cells would need some fancy arrangements too. Alternatively I can try to fit 6p90s, and have a 10 kWh pack weighing just over 70 kg, and cost about $7k.

OK, is there a problem with running a 1p110S arrangement? I'm expecting to be pulling ~500 A on occasion, which is 25C. If one of my cells is not up to the task, I have a whole system failure. A123 cells are pretty darn awesome; safe, easy to balance and monitor with a BMS, but would I be asking too much of smaller pack?

Are these Haiyin cells made from Unobtainium or is there a reason why they are so damn expensive?

Can I trust Turnigy cells to not fail/explode?

...

[Nuts&Volts]

Just wanted to let you know I found this source for a Rinehart here
http://vaxosystems.com.strawberry.arvix ... 100dx.aspx

They also sell Remy. Hopefully this gives you an idea of price comparisons

-Kyle

[jonescg]

Cheers Kyle, I was looking at their site earlier. Seems the 150DX is still 'in the pipeline'...

[Nuts&Volts]

Yea, I have only known of a few people using the 100kW version. I would assume thou that the new Lightning and the new Motoczysz use the 150kW model with the Remy Motors that each of them use. The 150kW controller is also listed on Rinehart Motions webpage and has been for awhile.

[jonescg]

On the subject of tensioning the primary chain...



42 links of 520 chain, rolling over two 17 tooth sprockets couldn't possibly need more tension than a few millimetres could it? The jackshaft unit itself, welded firmly to the triangular plates, would be pivoted on one of the motor mounts and a slot cut into the other side would enable you to tighten down once the correct tension was achieved. The other two motor attachment points would be utilised for frame mounting.

You could even put some kind of threaded rod on the side to push it up, but it's the sort of thing you would get right on the bench and then install it into the bike. Sure it puts the secondary chain out a bit, but that's my point of the primary not needing to be moved much, just enough to do the job.

[jonescg]

Should also point out that in the third dimension, there would be an identical plate on the other side with commensurate M10s holding the jackshaft assembly and plates to the motor. The primary drive chain would be on the RHS of the bike, with the jackshaft sprocket and secondary drive chain on the left. I was thinking a pair of M5 bolts threaded perpendicular to the M10 motor bolts could be used to adjust tension, and provide additional support to the friction being provided by the two M10s with big washers.



Or an alternative location for the adjuster bolts would be at the top since the bottom of the motor near the footpegs will be a bit tight for space:

[Arlo1]

I'm very excited to see how this goes.

[jonescg]

*Prof. Farnsworth voice*

"Good News Everybody!"

Neville from Evo got back to me. He said that the engineering team at Evo have agreed that a 360 V system would be ideal for for the AFM-130-3 motor, and encouraged me to bump the voltage up a bit higher. So a 400 V nominal system, delivering about 360 V under load should be perfect for this motor to deliver the goods.

He also said the Rhineheart inverter (PM100DXR)would be ideal, as it operates at higher voltages and delivers the same peak currents as the PM150DX, and is smaller to boot.

As for the prices - I was quoted 5000 GBP for the motor and about 8500 GBP for the inverter. The inverter price is for the PM150DX, so the 100DXR could end up being about the same. That's a hell of a lot of money, but still a tiny bit cheaper than a UQM motor

AND I have just discovered Google Sketch-up, so in future you will stop seeing these MS Paint abominations and some better diagrams instead

Check it out!!!

[Nuts&Volts]

Wow that is super expensive for an inverter. I think a better option would be to get a Tritium 200 for half the price. Run a 450-460V battery pack and a AFM-140-4. I believe you still should be able to get 120kW with that setup. You only add about 1kg with the tritium, but save ~$9000 AUS which could be used for lighter wheels and better suspension, which would give you more of an advantage than any on-board weight additions. Just a thought. Tritium would also be local making it easier to setup your motor and controller.

Here is a curve I pulled from Ben Grant from the AUS electric car forum. It shows theoretical curves for a EVO 4 turn with a Tritium with 391V supply.


Only other controller option you really have is the Sevcon EVO5 which peaks at 400VDC and 400Arms for about 5 seconds. No idea on cost of that guy thou

Edit: Just to do more battery calculations. You could run 130s A123 cells which would give you about 8.7kWh, max 368Adc would be 18C max on the cells. Charge them to 3.65V and then drain them a little to rest at 3.5V or so. This puts you under the 475VDC cap on the Tritium. A Lipo pack could be more like 112s charged to 4.15V or 4.2V each and could be in varying Ah size.