Motorino XPn 2011 E-Scooter

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.

Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:50 pm

I am curious to know what the big difference is between these two batery/charger/BMS combos. Other than price and chemistry and the kind of cell used, I'm wondering what the difference would be in quality between the two. One is Ping and the other is Electric Motorsport.

Ping (add $75 for high rate BMS and 5 amp charger)
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-2/lifepo4-lithium-ion-phosphate/Detail

Electric Motorsport
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_batteries_lpf_gbs_kit48.php

Ray
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Bluefang » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:20 am

Both are about the same i would say, just one has fancier hard plastic packaging. The fact that the Electric motor sport site does not list the C/discharge rate of the battery means its probably the same as the ping, ie really bad :mrgreen:

For a safe easy to use plug and play option they are both pretty good, seeing as your putting the battery in a already built battery compartment the ping is probably a better bet. I would still say your much better off using Lipo from Hobby king, its not hard to buy 8 batterys and build them into 2 packs to parallel to charge and series to run the scooter, will work better, cost less, much more powerful and be lighter.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:50 am

I used many HobbyKing lipos in the last three years in my RC trucks and RC helicopter. My experience with them is that they don't last as long as higher quality lipos. I've had a few loose much of their performance after just over 100 cycles. Even higher quality lipos do around 300/350 cycles before they start to loose their performance. I don't want to replace lipos every 6 months, I don't see the savings there. I also had a lipo fire once so I'm not keen on putting a bunch of Lithium Polymer batteries in an enclosed space. I don't want to smell smoke one day and pull to the side of the road just to watch my scooter burn and there's nothing I could do about it. LiFePO4 from HobbyKing are crap, I had a total of eight of them and they all puffed just sitting there, two of them lost a cell that just went dead. HK batteries are also over rated on their discharge, a rated 35C constant couldn't hold more than 3.3 volts per cell at a 20C discharge. Sorry Bluefang, Lithium Polymer is not a good option in my book, especially those from Hobby King. Now if you had experience with both a Ping battery and a battery you made with HobbyKing lipos and you tell me that HK lipos are better than Ping, then that's not encouraging.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Arlo1 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 am

I have over 350 cycles on my Hobby king turnigy 5000mah 6s 20c Lipo and its still over 80% life. I have over charged 3 cells to over 4.35 and discharged 3 cells to bellow 1 volt 2 times. This is before I realized its best to leave the cell monitors unplugged when not in use. The thing with HK lipo for an e bike is you are going to be under using it quite a bit so its not going to loose its life as fast as in a RC car type use! I haven't even needed to balance since last Xmas!
Thanks Justin at http://www.ebikes.ca/
Thanks to Methy at http://www.methtek.com/
And Dave who has Nomex, fets and current sensors etc. STUFF
My YSR build. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18183
Finished http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC lipo and most other types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them under your bed or were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:47 am

You can tell me that you have some HK lipos that are going strong after 350 cycles all you want, I'm sorry I'm not convinced that every lipo you get from HK will do the same. Yes some lipos from HK will do much better than other lipos from HK and that's what bothers me. IMHO, a lipo that gives 80% of what it used to is not a strong lipo anymore. The quality control of the cells used is inconsistent. HK has really good prices on a lot of stuff and I buy a lot from them but when it comes to their lipos, it's a gamble. You may get something good or you may not. Some members in here enjoy tinkering and experimenting and reporting their findings in here which makes for an invaluable bank of data, I'm not after something to tinker on constantly to pass the time. This scooter I have is not a hobby to me, it's a necessity to go to work everyday and run errands. It HAS to be rock solid and very reliable as much as I can make it. Lithium Polymer is great for some stuff I have but I'm not going to put them in my only means of transportation. The chemistry is not suited for what I want. From what I know, Lithium Polymer don't do so well in cold temperature also. I'm up here living in the Great White North and my scooter sleeps in an unheated, uninsulated garage.
Running fine for a couple weeks and then something goes wrong so you work on it for a whole day then it runs fine for another week and fails again so you work on it again to make it go isn't something I wish to do.
I hope I can find the definite answers for what I need for a very reliable scooter that gives the performance I wish to have. If not, then I'll have to think about going back to fossil fuels :cry: I really wish I don't have to.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Arlo1 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:02 am

mistercrash wrote: It HAS to be rock solid and very reliable as much as I can make it. Lithium Polymer is great for some stuff I have but I'm not going to put them in my only means of transportation. The chemistry is not suited for what I want. From what I know, Lithium Polymer don't do so well in cold temperature also. I'm up here living in the Great White North and my scooter sleeps in an unheated, uninsulated garage.

I hope I can find the definite answers for what I need for a very reliable scooter that gives the performance I wish to have. If not, then I'll have to think about going back to fossil fuels :cry: I really wish I don't have to.

Yes Lipo will not work well in your cold winters.
As for HK lipo vs the rest you are right they are cheaper for a reason but I wont spend $2000 for 1000-1500 wh of lipo other wise I mite as well burn gas! I just got 1110wh worth of lipo for about 350 shipped from HK! That makes the e bike worth while for my brother then as batteries get better he will replace them!
You might have a hard time finding a battery for -20- -30 degC weather! You could have something to keep it warn wrapped around it like a heated vest!
Thanks Justin at http://www.ebikes.ca/
Thanks to Methy at http://www.methtek.com/
And Dave who has Nomex, fets and current sensors etc. STUFF
My YSR build. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18183
Finished http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC lipo and most other types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them under your bed or were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:46 pm

Arlo1 wrote:I wont spend $2000 for 1000-1500 wh of lipo other wise I mite as well burn gas!


I understand your point here. But $2000 is what I saved up to now by selling my car and riding an E-scooter all summer since the beginning of May. Two more months and I will have reimbursed myself the price of the scooter entirely. Running electric brings savings and it's cool. Now If I were to go with a gas scooter instead of going back to a car, I would still save money, maybe $300 a month instead of 400+ (cost of running the car I had was), I haven't calculated the cost of running a gas scooter. I just have become very passionate about E vehicles and want to run with one, I got sick and tired of the oil companies gouging my wallet every week. I love the no noise, no emissions attributes of E vehicles. There has to be a way, I don't want much, just go 31/32 mph, enough torque to keep that speed going uphill and a range of 35 miles. All this in a reliable package. That's not too much to ask :lol:

When it gets to -20 C up here, I won't be running the scooter, it'll be in storage for the winter. But I want to run it until the temps fall down to -5 C.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Arlo1 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:07 pm

mistercrash wrote:
Arlo1 wrote:I wont spend $2000 for 1000-1500 wh of lipo other wise I mite as well burn gas!


I understand your point here. But $2000 is what I saved up to now by selling my car and riding an E-scooter all summer since the beginning of May. Two more months and I will have reimbursed myself the price of the scooter entirely. Running electric brings savings and it's cool. Now If I were to go with a gas scooter instead of going back to a car, I would still save money, maybe $300 a month instead of 400+ (cost of running the car I had was), I haven't calculated the cost of running a gas scooter. I just have become very passionate about E vehicles and want to run with one, I got sick and tired of the oil companies gouging my wallet every week. I love the no noise, no emissions attributes of E vehicles. There has to be a way, I don't want much, just go 31/32 mph, enough torque to keep that speed going uphill and a range of 35 miles. All this in a reliable package. That's not too much to ask :lol:

When it gets to -20 C up here, I won't be running the scooter, it'll be in storage for the winter. But I want to run it until the temps fall down to -5 C.

I run my turnigy Hobby king lipo to -5 deg C I just think you would find Hobby king lipo to save you even more money. If you replaced the 400 dollar pack 2 times and still save money. But I have been riding mine for over 2 years and over 350 cycles and it is still doing me great.
Thanks Justin at http://www.ebikes.ca/
Thanks to Methy at http://www.methtek.com/
And Dave who has Nomex, fets and current sensors etc. STUFF
My YSR build. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18183
Finished http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC lipo and most other types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them under your bed or were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Gordo » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:37 pm

I almost bought a used Motorino several times, but each time, the sellers were too busy when I was available, or did not show up as arranged. Lucky for me because in my frustration, I found a very knowledgeable and helpful gentleman who had several scooters he let me try and sold me a good scooter for a good price. With 20 X 40Ah LiFePO4, it will do an honest 80kmph and go 60km at 60kmph. All this for half the price of a Motorino.
Ray;
You do not seem to understand the answers to your questions that Arlo is giving you?
Quit comparing apples to oranges. Lipo is not lead. 20Ah Lead is not 20Ah Lipo.
From what little I know, 10Ah Lipo=20Ah lead.
Arlo is a very patient guy, even with old dough heads like me. I suggest you listen. You will have more success if you learn that skill.
We see the lead heads come here knowing everything there is to know about EV's. If they hang around long enough, they learn what to use to have a reliable ride.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:47 am

Well I have to thank Arlo1 for his patience then :) You're probably right, I don't fully understand what was said in here and I'm kind of stubborn. My apologies. I am a bit scared to put lipos in my scooter but I should go past that. Thanks Gordo, also bluefang who suggested lipos and Arlo, I'm seriously going to look into your suggestions and find out what I need to go lipo. It IS probably the best solution for what I'm after. I didn't really want to build my own battery pack but if it's the best way then I should just bite the bullet and do it.

Thanks again
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Gordo » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:32 am

Why not consider idiot proof 48V 30 or 40Ah LiFePo4? ThunderSky or GS. I am partial to TS because I have a local distributor with 12 month backup. With these cell and not going below 3V you should get 1000's of cycles, not 100's. 16 cells (48V) X 40Ah will cost @ $800. TS cells will give 2C for short bursts. I think you can use Ping pouches and pay @$600. IIRC the guys say Ping is good for 1.5C. Lipo from HK is still the best bargain, IF YOU SPEND A LITTLE MORE TIME READING on how to care for them by monitoring what you are doing.
Along with my 20 X 40Ah TS in my scooter, I also have an idiot proof 2 X LiMnPo4 48V X 12Ah for my bikes.
For me, learning something new has always been a double treat. I may have a slow leak in my recent memory, so my theory is to get as much in asap, so it quickly becomes old memory and I'll still be able to find it next year.
Enjoy your ride.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:17 am

...
Last edited by mistercrash on Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Gordo » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:57 pm

Maybe I read too much into your first post?? You wrote; "Lithium Polymer is great for some stuff I have but I'm not going to put them in my only means of transportation. The chemistry is not suited for what I want."
I understood you to want 100% reliable plug and play. That is what I describe as "idiot proof". No touching, no thinking, no monitoring and no balancing.
That is how I started and have not yet got to playing with HK bricks. I did come to the conclusion that my LifePo4 needed a BMS AS MANY HERE AT ES HAD TOLD ME FROM DAY ONE. I am very happy with my BMS from evassemble. It was easy to install and works perfectly. Every cell is exactly 3.45V.
I do not have a clue what my LiMnPo4 is doing? I charge it, ride it and charge it again. I've never even checked the voltage.
I have no fear of HK bricks, as I have an ace in the hole, Arlo, just down the street.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Arlo1 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:13 pm

Thanks for the props gordo. I find if you are patient and willing to learn lipo is not that bad. Its only a bit more maintenance then other types. But the power density and the performance you can have is incredible! And with turnigy at 29cents a wh I would not waste my time with any other type at this point.

But YOU SHOULD ONLY USE LIPO IF YOU FEAL UP TO IT! It is not for everyone.
Thanks Justin at http://www.ebikes.ca/
Thanks to Methy at http://www.methtek.com/
And Dave who has Nomex, fets and current sensors etc. STUFF
My YSR build. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18183
Finished http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC lipo and most other types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them under your bed or were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:49 am

Well the idea of my scooter running on lipo is starting to make me feel warm and fuzzy inside. Especially since I got confirmation from Mike that he is willing to make these lipo modules for others in any size they need. Once the lipos are inside the modules and some silicon is applied to the top where the balancing tabs pokes out, there's not much air inside the module. With no air, not much flames. Maybe a lot of smoke and some swelling. But like it was said, if good care is taken on the lipos, there won't be any problems.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:13 pm

I thought about how I use my scooter and the time I have to take care of it and made my choice on a LiFePO battery. Lipos are the most powerful option but I just don't have the time to take care of them properly. I'll get a LiFePO this spring, no sense getting it just before I put the scooter away when the snow starts to fall and sticks. I have the winter to think about the voltage I'll go to. Stay at 48 or go up to 60 with a new Lyen controller. I read I could just change the caps in my present controller but I'd rather have a Lyen. Now I spent part of this weekend changing the phase wires. I went all out and started from inside the hub motor and installed some 10 gauge wires. Some nice silicon multi strand stuff from HobbyKing. What a dirty, PITA job that was but it's finally done. I went out for a 10 minute ride to see how everything goes. No noticeable improvement on speed or torque :| and something weird happened in the first minute of the ride. The power cut out for a fraction of a second twice. I went 500 feet and had the first cut out, another 500 feet and the second cut out. Then the scooter ran fine for the rest of the ride. What could be the reason for those two cut outs?
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Gordo » Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:10 pm

mistercrash wrote: and something weird happened in the first minute of the ride. The power cut out for a fraction of a second twice. I went 500 feet and had the first cut out, another 500 feet and the second cut out. Then the scooter ran fine for the rest of the ride. What could be the reason for those two cut outs?


You will find many people have reported this event. It happens when you have a fully charged battery because of HVC. Once the surface charge dissipates, the problem is gone. :D :D :mrgreen:

Have you read this thread? viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29469
I bought a bunch of them. $40 landed at my door. As you can read, they do 1500W all day without smoke. Guys are pulling double that until they kill their batteries which only last 15 minute.
I'll see if I can play santa and toss one out of the plane on Dec 25, as I pass over ontariario.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:18 pm

Gordo wrote:I'll see if I can play santa and toss one out of the plane on Dec 25, as I pass over ontariario.


I didn't read all the thread, I got tired at page 14 or 15. But very interesting how some people have great success with such a cheap generic controller. I'll wear my bike helmet on Dec. 25, if you happen to let one fall off, I don't want to get hit on the head. :D

As for the cut offs, it's nice to know that it's normal. Thanks for putting my mind at ease.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Gordo » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:24 am

There is a separate thread on how to modify it for 48V also. Take an SMC off the board and put either another fixed resistor on or a pot so it can be adjusted for any voltage.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby motorino magnet » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:11 pm

Hi from Ontario Canada ! Great forum ! Been looking at lot and this one is the best !

Grateful for some answers to some noob questions.Please,just want to make my moto better,longer and a little faster to make it safer.

Can I buy one of these 60 volt 20ah-maybe another 10 ah too- and just drop it into my motorino and drive with more distance , more speed?
(stock sla 48 volt 20 + 14 ah XPN)

Can they lay on there side under the seat?

Can you parralell two packs of different ah ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/60V-20AH-LiFePO ... 3a6cb24e6c

Should I buy a new controller ? Which one ?

How difficult will hookup and installation be?

Is a cycle analist hard to hook up and which one should i buy?

Learned a lot from your forum.Thankyou

where do we donate to the forum?

ps-will the regen affect the new battery?
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:05 am

motorino magnet wrote:Hi from Ontario Canada ! Great forum ! Been looking at lot and this one is the best !

I agree this is a great forum with a lot of very knowledgeable people who've been doing the E-vehicle thing for a while.

Grateful for some answers to some noob questions.Please,just want to make my moto better,longer and a little faster to make it safer.

I'm a noob but I can try to answer some of your questions to the best of my very limited knowledge.

Can I buy one of these 60 volt 20ah-maybe another 10 ah too- and just drop it into my motorino and drive with more distance , more speed?
(stock sla 48 volt 20 + 14 ah XPN)

You can get a 60V 30AH from Ping if you want long range and more power, but you will have to upgrade your controller to take 60V, or change the caps in your existing controller to 100V ones.

Can they lay on there side under the seat?

You mean the compartment under the seat? I would leave that for storage. You can put the Lithium battery where the 20AH SLAs are presently. Of course you have to disassemble the whole rear end of the scooter to get to those SLAs. Well worth the effort to shed almost 70 pounds off your scooter, get more torque, more range and more speed and regain the space under the seat for storage.

Can you parralell two packs of different ah ?

Apparently it can be done with SLAs as we have a 20AH paralleled with a 14AH. I wouldn't do it with a lithium battery, no need to really as you can get a 30AH which will give you almost three times the range you have with your SLAs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/60V-20AH-LiFePO ... 3a6cb24e6c

I don't know about this ebay battery there, maybe someone can chime in about it but I'd go with Ping over this.

Should I buy a new controller ? Which one ?

If you go 60V yes, you can get a Lyen controller, http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=16998, or a Kelly one http://kellycontroller.com/general-brushless-motor-speed-controller.php can't help you on which one to get though. Some people here had great succes with a cheap Hua Tong generic controller. Some work is needed, warning lots and lots of reading http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29469&hilit=72V+hua+tong


How difficult will hookup and installation be?

It all depends on your capabilities and the tools you have.

Is a cycle analist hard to hook up and which one should i buy?

I don't know about this one but I would love to find out also. A popular choice seems to be the CA from ebikes.ca. http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_accessories.php

Learned a lot from your forum.Thankyou

where do we donate to the forum?

Don't know about that one.

ps-will the regen affect the new battery?

It should put some voltage back in the battery just like it did with the SLAs.
Hope this helps.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:22 pm

I have some 6 gauge welding wire, if I replaced all the wires on the SLA cells and the ones going from the battery to the controller, would there be a noticeable difference in the performance? These 6 gauge battery wires coupled with the 10 gauge phase wires I just did recently? The two power wires (red and black) sticking out of the controller, would I have to change those to a bigger gauge also? Or would it be a waste of time. As I said before, I plan on upgrading to LiFePO early Spring. Thanks.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Gordo » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:09 pm

Most of your sag is from the battery itself. You can guestimate your loss in the cable by how warm it gets?
There is no donation mechanism that I am aware of at present, but you can always buy from ebike.ca, which will provide a backdoor way.
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby mistercrash » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:19 am

I'll just change the wires going from the battery to the controller then and won't bother with the wires connecting the cells to each other. That way, the wiring will be done to accept the lithium battery in the spring. But I'm still wondering if I should change the wires going into the controller, the two wires connecting to the - and + of the battery. I would have 6 gauge wires coming from the - and + of the battery connecting to two 12 gauge wires going into the controller. It doesn't seem right to me.
Is it ready yet?
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mistercrash
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Re: Motorino XPn 2011

Postby Arlo1 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:23 am

mistercrash wrote:I'll just change the wires going from the battery to the controller then and won't bother with the wires connecting the cells to each other. That way, the wiring will be done to accept the lithium battery in the spring. But I'm still wondering if I should change the wires going into the controller, the two wires connecting to the - and + of the battery. I would have 6 gauge wires coming from the - and + of the battery connecting to two 12 gauge wires going into the controller. It doesn't seem right to me.

How many amps are you pulling? I run enough amps to do burnouts and wheelies though 10 gauge and some times 12 gauge! I have 8 gauge on some of my very hi power builds but 6 gauge is for so serious power!
Thanks Justin at http://www.ebikes.ca/
Thanks to Methy at http://www.methtek.com/
And Dave who has Nomex, fets and current sensors etc. STUFF
My YSR build. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18183
Finished http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC lipo and most other types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them under your bed or were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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