Motorcycle class Hub Motor

[markcycle]

I hope to have a 10KW, 20kw peak hub motor to offer for sale in the next few weeks and over the next 3 months I will be offering motorcycle hub motor kits with discs brakes. This is a custom hub motor build to my spec's by a major manufacturer.

Testing will begin shortly using my motorcycle. After that I am going to convert a Ninja 250 using this hub motor.

I would be interested in a list of motorcycles most likely would be upgraded to electric using a hub motor. With everyone's help (Dimensions pictures and suggestions) Those would be the bikes I would develop hub motor conversion kits for.

Imagine using a hub motor, an ICE motorcycle can be a hybrid, plug in hybrid or a fully electric bike. Details shortly
All hub motor will be laced to a DOT approved motorcycle rim as is in my motorcycle build and have Regen braking. This is not a offer to sell at this point, that will happen in a few weeks (3 to 5 weeks). When I have product to sell I will move to the selling section on the forum.
My goal here is to present the concept of a true motorcycle class hub motor spoked to a DOT approved motorcycle rim. Also introduce the concept of keeping the ICE engine and converting bikes to plugin hybrids. In concept it's relativity simple. Dealing with the details can make it complicated, depending on the bike.

Stay tuned

Mark

[Jay64]

One thing that always kept me from experimenting with hub motors on my bikes is that all the hub motors I saw had a fixed axle to fit in drop outs, while most of my motorcycles have the axle slide through the forks or swing arm. Are you going to have a motor that has a slide through axle?
As for your question, I think that in this industry, that would be a real hard one to focus on. There are so many different cheap donor bikes out there that people will be doing conversions on all sorts of bikes. Basically, whatever they can get their hands on cheap. I would recommend looking at bike models that have the same sized parts. I know Kawasaki and Suzuki were sharing their manufacturing plants, so a lot of their forks/brakes/rims etc. are the same parts. There is a possibility that you could have one hub motor fit on the ninja 250/500 and the GS 650.
Or, another thing that a lot of the aftermarket race parts companies do is to make a specialty product like that and have a variety of adaptors to fit on the different makes of bikes. Just an idea, I really look forward to hearing more about this. I have a few dirtbikes that just don't have enough room for good batteries AND a motor in the frame. If I can get the motor out of the frame, that would be great. I also am VERY interested in the possibility of regen from the front wheel of a motorcycle.

[Jay64]

Are you going to have disk brakes on these, or can there at least be mounts for disks on them?

What kind of dimensions do you need. I can probably get you a bunch of dimensions from a lot of different bikes if you want.

[markcycle]

Thanks Jay What you said is all true and is the reason I'm focusing on Hub motors. The value added I will put into the product will help keep it exclusive to my company (EnerTrac Corp.). Special torque arms and hollow axles will be standard on the motor design. I have been doing a lot of research and see the biggest challenge being the rear drum brake most older bike have. Regen will help for rear motors but I feel a disc brake backup will be necessary. The first motor is being tested on my bike so I designed it around a standard axle but all future motors will have hollow axles and drum brake like torque arms.

I also want to provide a conversion service where you can send me the frame and I'll deliver a frame with a mounted hub motor controller, throttle and brake lever. the customer installs their battery of choice and finishes the bike. I could also offer complete turn key service if asked.

But first I want to test and be sure the motor I'm getting in the next 2 weeks is up to the task, on paper it looks good but testing tells the truth. I won't sell a product that doesn't meet my spec's.

So what are my spec's
The most important spec is 0 to 30 MPH in 3 to 5 seconds and 45 MPH in 8 to 10 seconds of course it depends on ones batteries to provide the voltage/current. Top speed around the 50 to 60 MPH area and of course not overheat.

Your help in getting dimension would be great we will talk more and may I'll take a trip to Florida when things get going.

well that's the plan

Mark

[John in CR]

My question is at 10kw continuous, how will it dissipate the 1.5-2.5kw of heat continuously generated?

John

[markcycle]

My question is at 10kw continuous, how will it dissipate the 1.5-2.5kw of heat continuously generated?

John

Its a big motor so hopefully it will have enough surface area. Kelly is selling a 6KW motor. The Vectrix has a 20kw hub motor. So its not far fetched to think its possible. As soon as I get pictures I'll post them.

Mark

[tomv]

Hi Mark,

That's very exciting!

I would buy a motor that would fit bikes like Honda Innova or Sachs MadAss. I'll also keep the motor under 4kw peak as to stay within EU regulations for mopeds. For me a Crystalyte X5 would work perfectly, but it would need to be laced to motorcycle rim, have a compatible axle/torque arm and disk or drum brake. Maybe you would be able to build such motors even before your high power wheels are ready?

[markcycle]

Hi Mark,

That's very exciting!

I would buy a motor that would fit bikes like Honda Innova or Sachs MadAss. I'll also keep the motor under 4kw peak as to stay within EU regulations for mopeds. For me a Crystalyte X5 would work perfectly, but it would need to be laced to motorcycle rim, have a compatible axle/torque arm and disk or drum brake. Maybe you would be able to build such motors even before your high power wheels are ready?

If I did work with you on a hub motor solution do you have a battery in mind and where would you package the battery in those bikes. (hate to sell you a motor and find out you can't package a battery in the frame) What is the wheel size. The pictures I looked on the web, they look 16 inch and I wound need to know the width between the rear swing arm. It may be easier to convert the front wheel if I had good measurements and a disc rotor. Its possible depending on your budget. I do have an X5 motor I'm not using so its possible.

Mark

[johnrobholmes]

Very cool! I have a little pit bike that could use an electric motor on it. A hub motor sure would be simple.

[markcycle]

WOW it looks like a hollow axle hub motor with an integrated torque arm that will retrofit to small motorcycles will fill a real need.

My concern with off road bikes is the unsprung weight could have a negative impact of the rear suspension so I don’t know if a hub motor is best for dirt bikes. That being said if you would like to try a hub motor on a small dirt bike we should talk off line and I’ll try to provide a motor for R&D when I get my first quantity delivery of motors.

Mark

[Jay64]

Mark, yeah, I think there might be a good market for this on small offroad bikes. A lot of people are not using them in extreme offroad stuff. A lot of people use them as pit bikes at road races and also as race bikes on small paved tracks like go-kart tracks. I know in So-Cal there are a LOT of people racing small dirtbikes on go-kart tracks. The problem I have had in converting one of my small dirt bikes is not having enough space for the motor AND the batteries, and that is even with using lithium batts. If the motor is out of the way, it might be a viable option for me to convert one of them.

[markcycle]

Mark, yeah, I think there might be a good market for this on small offroad bikes. A lot of people are not using them in extreme offroad stuff. A lot of people use them as pit bikes at road races and also as race bikes on small paved tracks like go-kart tracks. I know in So-Cal there are a LOT of people racing small dirtbikes on go-kart tracks. The problem I have had in converting one of my small dirt bikes is not having enough space for the motor AND the batteries, and that is even with using lithium batts. If the motor is out of the way, it might be a viable option for me to convert one of them.

I didn't know there would be so much interest in using this motor on small dirt bikes. If there is a market I will make it happen. I'll have pictures of the prototype motor tomorrow and post them up. The prototype has a solid axle but I talked to my supplier at the start of the project (10 weeks ago) about hollow axles, and hollow axles with integrated torque arms will happen. I'm doing all the CAD design work and have a hollow axle motor drawn and ready to be build as soon as I approve the motor design.

Mark

[markcycle]

I got pictures of the new motor I'm going to test on my bike
One thing you'll notice is I had the phase wires come out one side and the Hall the other. This is so I can use large phase wires and its spoked toa 18 X 1.85 motorcycle rim

Mark

[Jozzer]

Unfortionatly hub motors don't tend to last long offroad, its extremely hard on the bearings (having no suspension to soften the blow from the motorweight), and upsets the balance of the bike having so much weight so far back.
Very easy solution for moped conversions though
It looks to be about the same dimensions as an X5, can it really take 10kw continuous or is it yet to be tested?

[markcycle]

Unfortionatly hub motors don't tend to last long offroad, its extremely hard on the bearings (having no suspension to soften the blow from the motorweight), and upsets the balance of the bike having so much weight so far back.
Very easy solution for moped conversions though
It looks to be about the same dimensions as an X5, can it really take 10kw continuous or is it yet to be tested?

The short answer is it has yet to be tested but it is almost twice as wide as an X5 the magnets are exactly twice the width of an X5

My hollow axle design uses a giant axle bearing 60mm ID 85mm OD and 13 mm wide this bearing should take whatever abuse is put to it