Honda Ruckus conversion plans..

Hey all,

I built an electric onda board based off info I've scraped off the site here over the years, and I often commute on a BBS02-driven hardtail 29er. I primarily ride a long, low Honda Ruckus as a commuter vehicle, and I'm planning on building an EV ruckus. A few years ago I built a 170cc ruckus in my living room - it turned out quite nice in the end. Everything on the bike came in parts and got put together over the course of a few months.





Here's my plan - I've done a smidgeon of research, and I've decided I want to keep the most 'stock' look as I can. Rather than swapping in a swingarm and a hub motor, I want to mount something like an ME0708 right where the stock motor was. I have a shapeoko3 dialed in for aluminum and don't think I'll have much trouble fabricating a plate to mount the ME0709 on the stock swingarm. I'll ditch the belt, retain the stock final drive gearset, remove the centrifugal clutch, and direct drive from the output shaft of the ME0709 to, say, a 12 toothed sprocket, then to the final drive shaft something between 60 and 70 teeth, whatever fits and works well.

Here's the inside of the swingarm in question:



The hole at the far left is where the motor mounts, the swingarm sits on the left side of the bike. At the far right is the centrifugal clutch, and behind it is the final drive. The final drive's output axle will mount to a stock wheel. I think with the CVT cover on, I'll be able to have the sprockets and chain invisible. Alternatively I could mount the variator on the output of the motor, but I can't imagine the stock CVT is going to be beneficial versus direct drive.

Before I start buying expensive parts, I wanted to make sure I'm 1) not off my rocker and 2) on the right track parts-wise.

from electricmotorsport, as a kit for simplicity's sake

ME0708 Drive Kit with Motor, Controller, Throttle, Contactor, Wire Kit, and Fuse Block
Motor
1 x Motenergy ME0708 PMDC Motor, 24-48V, 8 hp cont, 15 hp pk
Controller
1 x Alltrax AXE4834 24-48V 300A
Throttle
1 x Domino Twist-Grip Throttle with Microswitch
Contactor
1 x Albright 36-48V SW180 (200A cont.)
Wire Kit
1 x 6 AWG Wire Kit for Brushed Motor Drive Kit
Fuse Block
1 x Fuse and Fuse Holder for Motor Drive Kit $30.00

Does this sound alright? Right now I can hit mid-50s with my 66.6cc motor, I'd like to stay around there speed-wise, though I rarely cruise above 45. Range isn't a major consideration, though I'll fit as many cells where the stock gas tank goes (floorboard in the pics).

Anyone have any input? I ran this all past the ruckus community but nobody there's ever done anything like this before.

The following is written by a non-expert, but not a noob.

That is going to be a really cool Ruckus. Nobody at the Ruckus community has ever done this eh! Then you'll have to school them on how it's done. Your list of components sounds great although I have no idea what your top speed would be. Since you mention a couple gearing options you might have looked it up and made the correct calculations. Since I'm a heavy guy, I would probably go with more power. Like a ME1003 and an Altrax 4844. More power is always good. But if that's you in the pic, then you might be good with only 15 hp peak. Unless you want to accelerate faster than most cars on the road, you should be ok with just 15 hp peak 8) The Gigavac GX14 48V looks a lot smaller than the Albright, it might be easier to mount somewhere hidden on the Ruckus. You say ''fuse block''? Is that for the 12V system? Here's something that looks awesome, it will definitively go in my next project. https://revivalcycles.com/collections/featured-products/products/motogadget-m-unit-controller. You'll want the power to flow through the system with no bottlenecks. Big wires/cables and good quality lugs (crimped).

ElMoto forums is a great place to get good advice also. I find looking for answers here and there is very helpful. http://elmoto.net/forum.php

What have you decided to use for a battery?

I've thought about a Ruckus conversion, but not with the motor you are planning. I would think this is a first. I don't think you're off your rocker. You have what looks to be a solid plan so far. Just make sure your cells can handle the current you are planning to run, since I don't see much mention of those. Your speed levels seem attainable with that motor, with some headroom.

BTW, is that you in the photo? If so, awesome! We don't have many females here, and the number with your presumed skillset is even more rare.

Not me in the photo, though I'm sure once the EV conversion is done she'll take it for a spin.

For batteries, in order to save space and in order to meet the ME0708's amp demands, I was considering some of luna cycle's newer 48v Panasonic GA 18650 packs - two would meet the 100a draw requirements, any more in parallel will extend my range, so I'm shooting to try to get four of them into the stock gas tank area.

http://lunacycle.com/batteries/packs/48v/48v-panasonic-ga-18650-10ah-pack-performance-lightweight

I'm definitely open to suggestions as far as batteries goes, and thanks for taking the time to let me know I'm not going in the absolute wrong direction with the project.

For the batteries, those are great cells to use. But that price is a bit steep. Especially since you are making a relatively large pack (~160 cells), you might do well to build it in a single unit or have it made as a single unit. Buying 4 individual packs like that includes 3 superfluous BMSes since one of these would do the job:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/13S-PCB-PCM-BMS-Protection-Board-for-Li-ion-Li-Po-LiFePO4-battery-pack-120A-continuous/32532673190.html

Those cells are going for something like $6 a piece. So $6 x 160 + 165 (BMS) is less than $1200 for the parts (includes $75 headroom for other parts needed). Buying those Luna packs will cost you something like $1700+. So, that's something to think about if you have the propensity. Of course your time is valuable too, so consider both.

Bicycle batteries usually don't cut it for scooters. Lunacycles are good quality batteries but two of those batteries you linked is not even 1kw/h. I know you said range is not an issue but you want to go further than just around the block before recharging. You might need to think motorcycle and not bicycle when choosing the battery for your Ruckus. This comes with BMS, decent charger and all the hardware you need to make a good and powerful battery. All for under 1200 dollars including shipping.
http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/in...ion-3200wh-battery-pack-diy5360-15&Itemid=605

Sorry for the bad photoshop work but I didn't want to spent a lot of time on it. Knowing the wheels are 12'', it should be close to scale. So this is where you could make a steel or aluminum box to put the battery in and suspend it from the chassis underneath the seat. It might even be possible to install it a bit more forawrd if you need more room for the motor.

This sounds very good if you can make it all fit, and if you have really good fabrication skills to make it last.

Calculate the gear ratio to get the speed you want, rather than letting the space determine the gear size. I wish the top speed on my honda elite hub conversion was higher. This shouldnt be as much of an unknown while you build as I let it be.

If you find the space not quite enough for batteries, consider putting the overflow in a backpack. It makes theft difficult. The handling is better with the weight on the rider. Sounds crazy, but it works geat.

I'm running 11kw and it's fun, but everyone wants more. The prices on your choices seem like a good compromise.

I dont know of anyone who has many miles on their scooter conversion using the original scooter drive.

Good luck!

Ps 1.7kWh gives me 15 to 20 miles of hard riding on hills and plenty of full throttle but not much cruising over 35.

mistercrash said:

Bicycle batteries usually don't cut it for scooters. Lunacycles are good quality batteries but two of those batteries you linked is not even 1kw/h. I know you said range is not an issue but you want to go further than just around the block before recharging. You might need to think motorcycle and not bicycle when choosing the battery for your Ruckus. This comes with BMS, decent charger and all the hardware you need to make a good and powerful battery. All for under 1200 dollars including shipping.
http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/in...ion-3200wh-battery-pack-diy5360-15&Itemid=605

Sorry for the bad photoshop work but I didn't want to spent a lot of time on it. Knowing the wheels are 12'', it should be close to scale. So this is where you could make a steel or aluminum box to put the battery in and suspend it from the chassis underneath the seat. It might even be possible to install it a bit more forawrd if you need more room for the motor.

Click to expand...

I really appreciate the photoshop - I hadn't considered that space for batteries. I had checked out the options on hybridautocenter, sourcing a pack of tesla cells, etc. I guess if I can get 15 miles of range I'd be pretty happy, that would get me to work and back, 20 would be better. Do you know if the cells need to be oriented any specific way? I could see mounting three of them horizontally under the seat and another three horizontally in the gas tank area. I have all the dimensions for the space so I suppose I should expand battery options a bit.

23skidoo said:

This sounds very good if you can make it all fit, and if you have really good fabrication skills to make it last.

Calculate the gear ratio to get the speed you want, rather than letting the space determine the gear size. I wish the top speed on my honda elite hub conversion was higher. This shouldnt be as much of an unknown while you build as I let it be.

Click to expand...

It'll be a test for my fabrication skills for sure, but I've got enough interest in the ruckus community that I think I can get help there. I don't want to retain the actual scooter drivetrain, just the final drive gearset. I'm mostly sure it's a 13.7 reduction. The idea is to replace the drivetrain with a front and rear sprocket, the driven sprocket where the variator was powering a sprocket where the clutch was. I'm having trouble wrapping my head around how to come out to, say, a 2.65 gear ratio given the reduction in the rear.

I hope this calculation is useful.

60mph is one mile/min is 5280ft/min.

The specs for the ruckus i could find online give 19.2" tire diameter and final drive ratio of 3.71 depending on the model year. Thats hopefully the rear wheel versus the clutch shaft ratio. I didnt follow the 13.7 you mention.

So thats a tire circumference of 4.765 feet.

In one minute, there are then 1108 rpm at the rear wheel at 60mph.

With the ratio of 3.71 that gives 4110rpm at the clutch shaft.

The unloaded speed of your motor is given at 3500rpm at 48volts. So if you figure the loaded speed will be 3000 rpm then your ratio is about 4 to 3 with the larger gear on the electric motor.

You could look at the performance curve of the motor and/or use the ebikes.ca simulator to refine this last assumption.

Beware I probably have major blunders so far. Also my guess at the rpm of the motor under load may be way off.

There will be more rpm per mile than calculated from no load information due to a smaller effective tyre diameter when the bike is loaded and the tyre flattens at the bottom.

Ruckus is ~3kw, 50cc drivetrain will not handle this power according to previous builder who tried a 80100 motor (7kw) scooter conversion with a dream to manufacture conversion kits. His bottom line was he had to scratch the idea - drivetrain too weak. Not sure it was belt, clutch or gears. Even if you get rid of clutch, you still use the gears - consider upgrading if you do. (The guy was russian, you should find if googling.)

Take the whole CVT unit off, build a swingarm to accept a 13'' 8KW hub motor? 120 km/h top speed, and you get up there very fast with 350 Nm of max torque. It simplifies the build and minimal maintenance needed.

Before you buy anything from Todd Kollin at Electric Motor Sports, do some very thorough research.

Then, make sure you can get all of your money back if anything goes wrong.

Here's one allegation on ES, as an example:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=57772&p=861574&hilit=electricmotorsport+problem#p861574
"I have tried:
Electricmotorsport.com - No good service experience with these guys, aren't very willing and sometimes answer quick and sometimes not at all, makes me feel they either ignore mail as they seem fit or simply dont have their stuff in good order - either way it's probably a bad bet for a good result. I feel that if I have to litterally throw money at them and force them for consultation it won't be a good job done, and will be very costly in the end."

helpfulguy said:

Ruckus is ~3kw, 50cc drivetrain will not handle this power according to previous builder who tried a 80100 motor (7kw) scooter conversion with a dream to manufacture conversion kits. His bottom line was he had to scratch the idea - drivetrain too weak. Not sure it was belt, clutch or gears. Even if you get rid of clutch, you still use the gears - consider upgrading if you do. (The guy was russian, you should find if googling.)

Click to expand...

I would agree with this, having had a lot of problems with the drivetrain on the Ego-2, and eventually modding it severely to make it reliable in all kinds of weather.


My humble suggestions, from electric vehicles/bikes since 1998:

- Make the drivetrain weatherproof

- Pulleys must be made of strong metal

- New QS Hub motor will be way more efficient along with the newest trapezoidal or sine way controllers, 2X more efficient than the kit you're buying from EMS

- Don't burn down the house. Go LIFEPO4 if you really need Lithium and all its fussy requirements for longevity.

- The BMS is the first thing you should research and buy, unless you're buying 12V half Group U1, that look like the sealed lead acid, but are Lifepo4 internally with basic BMS in each.

Commercially-made eRuckus ebikes have been sold for many years, with hub motors.

Can you just hotrod those?

examples:

https://bikeandforth.ca/shop/daymak-eagle-scooter/

http://www.valleymotorsports.ca/new/scooters/motorino-electric-scooter-xpd

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ruckus-style-electric-scooter_1991165572.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy7-uC0gAis

For those prices I'd like more power from the start.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/3000w-72v-ruckus-electric-scooter_60256110534.html

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/3000w-electric-ruckus-scooter_60304025804.html

Those clones are pretty poorly built, otherwise people wouldn't start with Genuine Honda parts to begin with. The front frame's pretty horrid on those, for example, compared to the aluminum cast one Honda puts out.

I put this on the back burner since I bought a onewheel, I may revisit electrifying the Ruckus but for now I'm having a hard time justifying the cost.

Hi lowrizzle,

did you never reconsider your conversion plan? f you were to restart it now, what approach and components would you choose? Why not a rim with hub motor (3kW motors should be available?)

Hi lowrizzle...

My first experience riding w/bettery-electric assist was w/2x 12V 10Ah lead-acid SLAs... Watt taught me LOTS about how to minimize energy consumption... riding with a "thimble-full of gasoline". And lacking pedals, learned to kick from starts... kick against gravity ("up hills")... So my first thought in "EV Terms" is always "Easy to pedal?" Means for warmth and for exercise, but also to shave off peak battery power-outs. To extend ranges per charge but also to extend the life of the cells ("battery") before EVentual recycling and replacement. Objective being lowest costs overall PER MILE (Canadians and elsewhere "kilometer")...

So. Re any Honda Ruckus... hard to pedal? (or kick? Hehe...)

I have one of these and I've been really happy with it:

https://motorino.ca/motorino-xpd

This project ever get off the ground?

Yep curious too. I was thinking of doing this myself but I’m wondering if a stock ruckus isn’t too heavy (even stripped of main gas components) and also if adapting to the existing drivetrain is the right approach- versus a huge bushless motor on the rear wheel. I’m clueless about the physics and the tech and a Ruckus owner of old who did very little major work himself (had shop jet carbs and install Pipes) and mostly bolt and ratchet stuff. Nothing oily!

LockH said:

Hi lowrizzle...

My first experience riding w/bettery-electric assist was w/2x 12V 10Ah lead-acid SLAs... Watt taught me LOTS about how to minimize energy consumption... riding with a "thimble-full of gasoline". And lacking pedals, learned to kick from starts... kick against gravity ("up hills")... So my first thought in "EV Terms" is always "Easy to pedal?" Means for warmth and for exercise, but also to shave off peak battery power-outs. To extend ranges per charge but also to extend the life of the cells ("battery") before EVentual recycling and replacement. Objective being lowest costs overall PER MILE (Canadians and elsewhere "kilometer")...

So. Re any Honda Ruckus... hard to pedal? (or kick? Hehe...)

Click to expand...

You bring up a lot if good points, but I gotta say that even if you can't pedal a heavy Ruckus, it just looks much cooler than a Walmart stand up scooter with cut off sleeves, capri pants and flip flops.