1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
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marcexec
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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by marcexec » Aug 02, 2017 2:20 am

zackclark70 wrote:
EddySPalm wrote:
zackclark70 wrote:use the bms output to switch a fused connection direct from the battery to the controler ( just fit a key switch in the wire from the bms to the relay/contactor )
Clever!

By the way, can anyone recommend me a good contactor and key operated switch?
i would suggest a 2 stage key switch with a pre charge resistor on stage 1 to minimize the inrush current on the controller it will save you contactor and the controller caps :) stage 2 would have all your relays / main contactor ( maybe run the dc-dc from the bms output)

the best bet for a key switch is to go on ebay and pick up a car ignition switch from something like a ford they are cheap and work well ( you will probably want a relay for the 12v system / dc dc converter aswell along with a fuse box for all the 12v stuff )

its also best to make the wiring hard to get at to avoid theft

just visualizing the workings of this setup makes me want to get my next big project started lol

sorry if that does not make 100% sense its nearly 4am here lol
On my bike I have a built-in locked/unlocked/on switch, the precharge is switched on with the 12V. The ignition switch then closes the contactor (Gigavac GX12, BTW). I'm thinking of adding a delay to the latter to make it early morning/idiot proof.
You might want to add a well-hidden GPS tracker - maybe under the battery?
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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by EddySPalm » Aug 06, 2017 3:38 am

marcexec wrote: You might want to add a well-hidden GPS tracker - maybe under the battery?
Such a good idea, I will definitely do that! And thanks for input regarding key/contactor solution.

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by EddySPalm » Aug 06, 2017 3:42 am

Did my most joyful unboxing since I got my first snowboard as a kid, today :D

Three nicely packed boxes from QS Motors 8)
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Spectacular looking motor :lol: Everything looks super solid and well built, motor, brake lever/caliper, controller housing and connections... I guess the progress is mostly up to myself from now on, lots of mechanical work to be done. Just too bad the family and I are heading for another weeks vacation tomorrow or the day after :roll:
2017-08-06 10.16.12.jpg

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by EddySPalm » Aug 06, 2017 3:28 pm

Just had a brief look at some of the parts down there in the basement this evening. Didn't have time to really do anything, but made some observations:

- Controller is too big to fit together with the battery pack beneath the side, but I was prepared for that. Technically it can fit, but it would just look cluttered and be a pain to wire and service. The plan is now to fit it a sealed "floor" inside the side compartment on the scooter, and fit both controller and charger there. Unfortunately I didn't take a picture of the location, for those of you who haven't seen a lot of Vespas before.

- The throttle grip and matching grip is too tight by a millimeter on the diameter. I think I will look for a new throttle grip and hopefully find one with a more retro/stealth look. The diameter problem probably has to be fixed by cutting off the piece of tube that has the wrong diameter, and weld on a replacement tube from a modern (22.3mm) handlebar...

- Mounting the brake lever will be a tough (though fun) one. The front brake lever and clutch (left lever) is cast onto the handlebars, while of course the supplied brake lever uses a simple clamp. The Vespa is equipped with a foot brake originally, and the coolest soulution would be to ditch the whole lever, and get the slave cylinder mounted to the original foot pedal. This would leave the clutch lever as a dummy.
Another option would be to use the clutch lever to operate the slave cylinder, so as to work as a rear brake. I don't see any way to mount the slave cylinder directly onto the lever, but I could hide the slave cylinder inside the headlight housing and make it cable actuated. Hmmmm...

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by marcexec » Aug 10, 2017 3:04 am

EddySPalm wrote: ...

- The throttle grip and matching grip is too tight by a millimeter on the diameter. I think I will look for a new throttle grip and hopefully find one with a more retro/stealth look. The diameter problem probably has to be fixed by cutting off the piece of tube that has the wrong diameter, and weld on a replacement tube from a modern (22.3mm) handlebar...

- Mounting the brake lever will be a tough (though fun) one. The front brake lever and clutch (left lever) is cast onto the handlebars, while of course the supplied brake lever uses a simple clamp. The Vespa is equipped with a foot brake originally, and the coolest soulution would be to ditch the whole lever, and get the slave cylinder mounted to the original foot pedal. This would leave the clutch lever as a dummy.
Another option would be to use the clutch lever to operate the slave cylinder, so as to work as a rear brake. I don't see any way to mount the slave cylinder directly onto the lever, but I could hide the slave cylinder inside the headlight housing and make it cable actuated. Hmmmm...
Sell the electric throttle on and use a potbox / cable operated throttle instead, e.g. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 31&t=89799. There was a nice 3D printed one for sale by a member of the forum, but I can't find the thread :(.
That way you can keep the original throttle and handlebars.

Same for the brake, either use the clutch lever (it looks like the rear disk brake that came from QS is cable actuated) or convert to hydraulic on the back via the foot brake. Clutch lever can then be used for variable regen via another box.

I'd try keep a stock look and feel. :)
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by grindz145 » Aug 10, 2017 12:19 pm

This is going to pretty!

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by wineboyrider » Aug 10, 2017 7:29 pm

Nice project. Subscribed.
8)
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by EddySPalm » Aug 11, 2017 2:21 am

marcexec wrote:
EddySPalm wrote: ...

- The throttle grip and matching grip is too tight by a millimeter on the diameter. I think I will look for a new throttle grip and hopefully find one with a more retro/stealth look. The diameter problem probably has to be fixed by cutting off the piece of tube that has the wrong diameter, and weld on a replacement tube from a modern (22.3mm) handlebar...

- Mounting the brake lever will be a tough (though fun) one. The front brake lever and clutch (left lever) is cast onto the handlebars, while of course the supplied brake lever uses a simple clamp. The Vespa is equipped with a foot brake originally, and the coolest soulution would be to ditch the whole lever, and get the slave cylinder mounted to the original foot pedal. This would leave the clutch lever as a dummy.
Another option would be to use the clutch lever to operate the slave cylinder, so as to work as a rear brake. I don't see any way to mount the slave cylinder directly onto the lever, but I could hide the slave cylinder inside the headlight housing and make it cable actuated. Hmmmm...
Sell the electric throttle on and use a potbox / cable operated throttle instead, e.g. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 31&t=89799. There was a nice 3D printed one for sale by a member of the forum, but I can't find the thread :(.
That way you can keep the original throttle and handlebars.

Same for the brake, either use the clutch lever (it looks like the rear disk brake that came from QS is cable actuated) or convert to hydraulic on the back via the foot brake. Clutch lever can then be used for variable regen via another box.

I'd try keep a stock look and feel. :)
Nice, that throttle looks like the way to go! Definitely going as stock as I possibly can, with the exception of the motor, which is (intentionally) an eye catcher.

the brake that qs sent is hydraulic, and the slave cylinder is pushed on by the lever. It really must be possible to make this work with the foot brake, I just have to get home from this bloody vacation :lol:

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by GBenner » Aug 20, 2017 4:33 am

Do you already have a idea which charger you are using?
I'm planning to do a similiar project, but haven't found a charger yet which fits my needs.

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by EddySPalm » Aug 21, 2017 1:32 pm

GBenner wrote:Do you already have a idea which charger you are using?
I'm planning to do a similiar project, but haven't found a charger yet which fits my needs.

I haven't decided yet, so please let me know wgen you know what charger you will be using :-D

I just found out that our authorities here in Norway will make it virtually impossible to register the Vespa here, which is a massive loss. I will have to have an ECE100 approved lab to approve my battery pack, and I have no idea of either where to find a lab like that, what they will require from my battery pack OR how much it will cost.

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by marcexec » Aug 22, 2017 3:00 am

EddySPalm wrote:
GBenner wrote:Do you already have a idea which charger you are using?
I'm planning to do a similiar project, but haven't found a charger yet which fits my needs.

I haven't decided yet, so please let me know wgen you know what charger you will be using :-D

I just found out that our authorities here in Norway will make it virtually impossible to register the Vespa here, which is a massive loss. I will have to have an ECE100 approved lab to approve my battery pack, and I have no idea of either where to find a lab like that, what they will require from my battery pack OR how much it will cost.
That's a bummer. Can't you register the bike as petrol and then change the "engine"?
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by EddySPalm » Aug 22, 2017 3:59 am

marcexec wrote:
That's a bummer. Can't you register the bike as petrol and then change the "engine"?
Actually, I got some good news today, long story short I only have to get a reputable electric/electronic firm to sort me out with a written approval that they think I've built my battery in a safe way with regards to short circuits, over discharge (gotta get that new BMS :D), overcharge and low voltage protection. Hooray!

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by marcexec » Aug 22, 2017 4:22 am

Cool, that's actually reasonable enough given recent lithium battery incidents on airplanes etc.
Put a nice label saying "Dreamliner 2" on it before they have a look :P.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by EddySPalm » Aug 25, 2017 2:00 am

I just paid my way out of any fiddly brake set-ups: Found a company who sells hydraulic conversion brake pedal especially made for my Vespa! Includes a cast aluminium brake pedal with brake switch and master cylinder. All I need now is to run my brake hose back to the disc brake.

Image

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by EddySPalm » Aug 29, 2017 4:16 am

A small update...

- I've been welding a little now and then, and the pack is nearly completely welded. I have 4 "S's" on one side left :D I have started to worry a little about the amount of nickel I am using though, and how many I should actually have put on top of each other. For those with some experience and wanting to help, please see my thread on this topic: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 14&t=90270

- I rarely weld more than one "S" on my pack per day, as the welder isn't exactly the fastest in use, and not super ergonomic. So I started making the room where I imagine my controller and DC/DC converter will sit.
I cut cardboard to size to use as templates for plywood. It's gonna look awesome when all laquered and done 8)
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I also have a question regarding the brackets that came with the motor/disc brake, but I'm not really sure what to ask, except, how do I attach this to my custom swingarm? :lol: I seriously cannot see the use of that big slot that I'm pointing at?
I can't see that this slot is used (or even present) on the swingarm that I was about to copy the design from?
2017-08-22 22.00.59.jpg
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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by Lebowski » Aug 29, 2017 5:18 am

integrated torque arm ?

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by EddySPalm » Aug 29, 2017 6:20 am

Lebowski wrote:integrated torque arm ?
Yeah it certainly looks like a torque arm for the brake (the motor has a separate, smaller one). I just don't see the point of that huge slot, couldn't it just have a simple hole? I'm trying to google and find similar torque arm designs but I can't find any...

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by Duck-Stew » Aug 29, 2017 8:41 am

EddySPalm wrote:
Lebowski wrote:integrated torque arm ?
Yeah it certainly looks like a torque arm for the brake (the motor has a separate, smaller one). I just don't see the point of that huge slot, couldn't it just have a simple hole? I'm trying to google and find similar torque arm designs but I can't find any...
Likely a 'hold-over' from people who use chain driven motors and therefore have to account for chain slop needing adjustment. Or, it would give options to the customer?!?

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by EddySPalm » Aug 29, 2017 8:51 am

Duck-Stew wrote:
EddySPalm wrote:
Lebowski wrote:integrated torque arm ?
Yeah it certainly looks like a torque arm for the brake (the motor has a separate, smaller one). I just don't see the point of that huge slot, couldn't it just have a simple hole? I'm trying to google and find similar torque arm designs but I can't find any...
Likely a 'hold-over' from people who use chain driven motors and therefore have to account for chain slop needing adjustment. Or, it would give options to the customer?!?
Sounds about right. I'll investigate it a little further, and see if it's easiest to leave it there, and just run a big bolt through it, or cut it off and attach it to the swingarm like I will with the motor axle...

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by EddySPalm » Aug 29, 2017 8:57 am

Took some time after work today, to get started on my version of Jim's swingarm. It will be very similar to his swingarm, but I wouldn't be too comfortable with the same attachment of the rear shock, and the bending moments introduced to the through-bolt he's used. I will therefore attach tubing to the rear end of my swingarm also, so all forces are spread out in a better way, and I get the bonus of using a bushing like I had originally.
I have yet to measure the exact location of the rear shock, and I hope it can be placed symmetrically on the extended piece of sheet steel (not like in the picture). If not, I'll have to put some reinforcements underneath where the "cantilever" is the worst.
swingarm1.PNG
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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by mistercrash » Aug 29, 2017 3:01 pm

EddySPalm wrote: I also have a question regarding the brackets that came with the motor/disc brake, but I'm not really sure what to ask, except, how do I attach this to my custom swingarm? :lol: I seriously cannot see the use of that big slot that I'm pointing at?
I can't see that this slot is used (or even present) on the swingarm that I was about to copy the design from?
2017-08-22 22.00.59.jpg
This slot slips onto a pin that sticks out of the inside of the swing arm to keep the brake caliper from rotating. It's a common bracket I have seen used on Chinese hub motors.
Is it ready yet?

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by EddySPalm » Aug 30, 2017 5:54 am

mistercrash wrote:
EddySPalm wrote: I also have a question regarding the brackets that came with the motor/disc brake, but I'm not really sure what to ask, except, how do I attach this to my custom swingarm? :lol: I seriously cannot see the use of that big slot that I'm pointing at?
I can't see that this slot is used (or even present) on the swingarm that I was about to copy the design from?
The attachment 2017-08-22 22.00.59.jpg is no longer available
This slot slips onto a pin that sticks out of the inside of the swing arm to keep the brake caliper from rotating. It's a common bracket I have seen used on Chinese hub motors.
Thanks, I think I got it now. Have you seen designs where there is just a pin to slide through the hole, or have you also seen it sorted with a bolt/screw with nut on the opposite side of the bracket?
Robert from QS motors sent me these photos, whereas the middle one is the one that confirms its purpose the most. I just think it looks so friggin' redneck, with the counternut and everything.
Is it a viable solution to weld a pin onto the swingarm with just a circlip slot to secure the bracket sideways? I'll model an example by the end of the day (I hope).
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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by EddySPalm » Aug 30, 2017 7:40 am

EddySPalm wrote: Is it a viable solution to weld a pin onto the swingarm with just a circlip slot to secure the bracket sideways? I'll model an example by the end of the day (I hope).
I was thinking something like this. If the sheet steel has a hole in it, the pin can have a weld on both sides of the sheet steel (would also reduce warping of the sheet steel), and I think it would look very slick. Any thoughts?
swingarm3.PNG
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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by izeman » Aug 30, 2017 8:59 am

Welding a pin to the frame is perfectly fine and how it's done.

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Re: 1970 Vespa 50s electrification project

Post by SlowCo » Aug 30, 2017 9:31 am

If you want to slide the wheel into the swing arm dropouts surely the pin should be bolted to the swing arm afterwards and removable to be able to get the wheel assembly out later?

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