PMW Shocker

[michaelplogue]

We'll be upgrading to a motard brake set if we choose to keep it in that configuration, and as soon as we can find a suitable dual twist throttle we'll finally be able to use the motor as the rear regen brake.

Hi Steve! Have you considered utilizing standard levers for the regen braking? Either utilizing a linear hall sensor and magnets mounted on the regular levers (which would still allow you to use mechanical brakes in conjunction with regen), or by simply running a standard brake cable to a sprung potentiometer.

Alternatively, you could use a sprung pot on a standard right foot brake pedal - in order to keep things 'motorcycle' standard.

[dragonfire]

Nice ideas, Michealplogue. do you have such a setup at your diggler now ?

This kind of brakes could attract people coming from regular motorbike setups that allready miss the shifting work on such an electric monogear device, a clietele that would rather put pink mudguards on it´struck than drive an "electric motorbike" not many years ago is hard to convince into a brake that comes in the throttle grip only.

There are still people that would buy kickstarters on their gopeds rather than pullstarters, i believe there cpould be similarities with dirtbike/ Enduro owners who will not want a combined throttle/brake grip most likely but prefer a solution combined of "real brakes" and a regen like michealplogue sketched up, this is tricky but a second set of 100% working brakes such be mandatory on the serial version.

Folks that would buy a "cruiser" motorbike or like a Honda Zoomer (with a sadde-cidli cushioning like the jumping blue monoskies on the trevair website) Scooter most probably would go with a combined throttle/ brake handle - are these the new setups you are thinking about?

Still the "freestyle" BMX/MTB/ Enduro charme of the shocker is somewhat appealing to me, but freestyle and dirtriding "of the saddle" won´t work well with such a combined throttle/brake handle - or would a 2real profession/ enthusiast" even prefer to have anything in one handle that can´t be used as a "handle" or for pulling up the bars before a jump in exchange for that (maybe, i´m not that kind of experienced) ?

May i/we ask about the current state of street homologationing efforts for the drive system itself and the vehicle setup, is either engine or engine/ controller or even the whole "core vehicle" setup including the manufacturing process about to be homologated allready or are there no fixed plannings about that yet or is this the step PMW actually is about to take and accordingly looks out for a chassis setup ?

[liveforphysics]

I hate having to unwrap my fingers from around the bar to hit the brake. Try bombing through desert at 100mph and see how comfortable it feels to uncurl your fingers from the grip long enough to get on the brake lever. Many times when the bike bucks hard during braking at speed, it pulls the bar right out from under your hand. This is why most all serious riders cut the levers to be 2-finger shorties, so you can keep the ring and pinky on the bar while modulating the clutch and brake. The ability to brake with your hand on the bar would be a very good thing for both hardcore and casual riders IMO.

However, it's just the rear brake, and it's a street motorcycle on street tires with a high center of gravity and not too heavy. Just like a supermoto. I never use the rear brake for trying to slow myself on the street anyways, because if you are trying to stop hard, the rear tire should be just lightly skipping across the ground, and it's better to have it spinning for the gyroscopic force than to be trying to brake with it. Rear brake is just for an occasional stab when dicking around to set the bike into oversteer (at a risk of high-side).

I would feel perfectly comfortable riding the bike with no rear brake. It's nice to have for brake redundancy (in a front brake failure), and to save your ass when you pushed the wheelie a little too far, but it's really not needed for hard riding IMHO.

Great work!
-Luke

[dragonfire]

hi lifeforphysics,

the pro´s as mentioned for a in-grip brake solution seem clear to me, the principle is similar to riding an uncushioned scooter at speed of only 25+ mph at a regular street

but considering that you would need to have your arm perfectly angled to the body during the braking process with shifting loads and maybe including steering work the presence of a fixed brake handle - even if applied with two fingers of a pivoting hand/ arm - would make things more safe as soon as evading a obstacle or simply stepping of the saddle is needed.

You would need to release grip on the bars and also brake pressure applied as soon as braking and evading gets really hazardous ( turning the steering or stepping of the saddle getting involved) so the comfort comes in exchange to safety at some point and a certain degree, unfortunately being a point where this really can matter and make the difference like short in before crashing a car crossing your way or when having to evade a obstacle on a track or prepare to go over it and stand up from the sadle.

And it would take away freestyling capability allready gained through the BMX-Neck IMO, but this is coming from a perspective with more experience on BMX than on Enduro´s with more than 80 ccm ( in fact is was a fiddy) so i am not representing the targeted audience in full as this is clearly a motorbike according the power output.

A choice of more than one brake setup could be easily offered on a "mass customiZation" product like that, the controler could remain the same no matter the input devices.

I am looking forward to that video of you putting some use on it

[PatmontS]

Just a little taste of the PMW Shocker testing progress;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8T53KPBvSY

[dragonfire]

the rear arm and most likely the whole frame are different from the first generation prototype ?


As for the motorbike brakes, min 1:08 and 1:15 seemed to be pretty stable now !

[dragonfire]

Since LED-lightsets have been homologated for street usage only little time ago, wouldn´t it be sweet if the shocker had LED taillights and blinkers and maybe even ( 2 with like 6-12 LED´s each) LED headlamps ?

Not mentioning the reduction in power consumptioning and the ability to use running daylights without much effects on the range.

[PatmontS]

Looks like Autoblog Green picked up on this thread and is scooping everyone else;

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/16 ... al-shocks/

[fechter]

Looks like Autoblog Green picked up on this thread and is scooping everyone else;

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/16 ... al-shocks/

Remember folks, you saw it here first. We even help with the design.

Any luck with a bidirectional throttle, Steve?

[liveforphysics]

Looks like Autoblog Green picked up on this thread and is scooping everyone else;

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/16 ... al-shocks/

Remember folks, you saw it here first. We even help with the design.

Any luck with a bidirectional throttle, Steve?

Actually, somebody linked me a thread from some scooter forum before I saw it here The thread had a painfully bad signal to noise ratio though.


That new video and swing arm setup look great! Looks like that front brake rotor grew Looks like you found a rider with much better skill as well I look forward to experiencing it in person soon

[PatmontS]

Any luck with a bidirectional throttle, Steve?

I have the wireless electric skateboard hand throttle/brake control, but it uses a single pot that throttles up through about 20 degrees from a neutral position and brakes through about 20 degrees on the other side . The receiver unit inlet/outlet wire combinations have no coincidence with the Kelly Controller, so if I could figure out how to elegantly integrate the simple but sensitive two way pot, I'll still need a clever electronics engineer to see if the receiver unit can even talk to the Kelly.
Kinda stumped right now, but need to get the motor to work as a good rear brake. I hate going to another lever, but might need to for now.

[dragonfire]

no detail idea if the kellys have a programmable interface and which platform and speech it uses, but given te idea there is no terminal with dynamic capabilities onboard you will want to have a such terminal installed omn an embedded system ( like with x-acale cpu and rj45-connector plug,onboard ssd rom and some ram, cheapo stuff, and open platform os´s are available for that) and a plug for the customers laptops or the factories go-prammer. Given the idea the actual ESR controller´s signales are stepless by variation of potential max output and use a separate receiver on the board to interprete this the no since this is a green project and google uses your vehicles allready try and get it established as a wildcard-project with googles summer of code, alternatively offer the programmer a licencing scheme at which he gets a kickback on every communication kit sold if using a custom conenctor plug (replacing the go-prammer setup on this and future electric applications).

-stepless controller will not allow for "fuzzy logic" in the form of self-setting to the maximum draw according the exact throttle position but ony accept fixed percentages/ reductions from "full" depending on throttle setting an sends back unused current to the circuitery on fixed levels by direct throughpass on a simple solution where the throttle allready incorporates the controller n meanings of defining the draw the motor is being allowed, similar to what can be experienced if using a poti with fixed settings for the braking most probably as this is not a smooth bypass of the needed current like it should be, as the grade and way of this bypassing should be different depending on load and actual battery state and rears´rpm producing the braking current when shifting in regen you will not want the throttle to actually 2controll" that function as it will not be close as precise or in realtima as a actual rake setup would be- even more as rear brake should not lock up.
you will have to have the same controlling density on the braking states than on the accelation part, unsure if the controller allready can do this and i beleive the regen energy is hard to be treated "dynamically2 not only of sensorign reasons but mainly as the resistance of the brake cannot be altered stepless without a second input enegry in that coils or a receiver accepting the energy in there that sensors like a laptop charger would do and maybe can convert the regen braking energy back into usefull voltage or simply feed the lightsets batteries in separate.

having a dynmic controller setup could also turn out usefull when homologating your go-bike rack kit as assistive drive that will only put electric power at "on" when pedal power is applied and having a versatile and user-alterable characteristic while still remaining in the legal 500 watts framework (if the user chooses so...) would get you ahead of competion also on this one.
Damn ate over here, i hope i didnot miss out something specific but i beleive the grip bralke can only made working if clibrated in the similar steps or step range like the current setup that matches up throttle position witha preset range of fitting load levels, does the actual controller use like 3 wires and the more power is asked for by thumb the more lines get engaged while the flux-capacitor degrades a specific grade of resistance depending on throttle position so the controller now uses this percentage of the "full " to be delivered to the wheel while the grip-controller commands a percentage and actively cuts it off allready, other than the flux-capacitor that lets the controller do that job and which method is used to revert polarity if using the engine itself as brake / alternator?

i believe Byronrace could be helpfull in that matters if motivated right

[dragonfire]

Just wondering, wouldn´t the "Riot" make a nice home for an electric engine, too ?
Controller with the rear swingarm, batteries below the front main frame crosstube - this has the potential to make a logical conclusion why you want to step into big bikes now more clearly and most likely will allready help to spool moneys into PMW´s pocket. A foldable electric Mini-pitbike that can go offroad with the 750 watt setup or go many miles on a 500 watts brushless setup and still can be lifted and easily fit a Prius´s and also wrangler trunk;
except for the new batterie/ controller case/ pan most of the parts are allready sitting in PMW´s shelves so why not electrify this product, too ?

as for the "keyless-go" feature as asked for on gpn, make an rfid-receiver with 3 frequencies and cards containing the rfid-unit - pretty much like on skiing stations.

the multiple frequencies are for cards that can have preset speed maximums, if not needing this one frequency ( unique per scooter, not fluctuating, if all cards are lsot replacement can be easily made) will suffit the purpose.

this is something you can do on yourself easily, if you are asking for supply as prebuild modules - ready to plug it in - i´d gladly let make them in poland cheaply for you, using siemens components and tagging it "safety made in germany" or something along that line.
i got an ESr controller here to see where to fit it at.
This can run with the onboard battery only, no battery in the remote needed and the remote can be as small as a corn of rice.

The nice thing is that this will be able to communicate with some of the more recent and also upcoming smartphones, too


Edit about the electric "riot":

fitting the rear axle of the go-waggon and making it a 3-heeler and legl for florida´s bike lanes could also enhance sales of the riot platform, this would also be a perfect carryable and trunk-fitting mallcrawler base.

[fechter]

I have the wireless electric skateboard hand throttle/brake control, but it uses a single pot that throttles up through about 20 degrees from a neutral position and brakes through about 20 degrees on the other side . The receiver unit inlet/outlet wire combinations have no coincidence with the Kelly Controller, so if I could figure out how to elegantly integrate the simple but sensitive two way pot, I'll still need a clever electronics engineer to see if the receiver unit can even talk to the Kelly.
Kinda stumped right now, but need to get the motor to work as a good rear brake. I hate going to another lever, but might need to for now.

It's hard to say how they implemented their control without poking around in it a bit. Seems like it would be doing a PWM thing at some point that could be converted to an analog signal for the Kelly. I'd suggest probing random spots on the receiver board with an oscilloscope while working the throttle.

The magnet/hall sensor thing would certainly be easy enough to hook up for testing purposes. Using the bidirectional linear hall sensor would probably solve the scale issues you had with the Hoverboard throttle. Magnet close, output low. Magnet far, output 2.5v.

Do you have a vestigal clutch lever? You could also tie it into the rear brake so it activates just before the friction brakes.

[spinningmagnets]

Th PMW Shocker is a perfect application for the rear disc brake/sprocket combination that has become popular on some custom motorcycles...

[dragonfire]

this design looks awesome but is proven to be flawed as soon as the user lubes the chain and lube gets on the area that is in charge for the braking.
maybe later materials and hydraulic brakes can compensate for this, dunno, but unfortunately this design seems to be a prime example of something that works well on the screen and on display models ( therory) but runs into Murphy in actual uage conditions.


Edit:

As for the regen, we´d need to know more details about the sensoring and also the engine as for figuring out if regen would make sense on a perm forklift engine.

From what I have heard, nobody has much experience yet with the Kelly controllers and a forklift engine as most use the allready existing forklift controller. Still, they do look to be reasonably priced AND offer regen.

Although shunt-wound motor configurations are less efficient than series-wound schemes, they do offer one advantage that most other motor types can accomplish only with extensive modification and complicated controller configurations, which is regenerative braking. During deceleration, the vehicle can use the forward motion to produce a significant amount of charging current to the batteries, while providing well-controlled braking action. In effect, 15-25% of the battery capacity expended to bring the vehicle up to speed can be recovered during a typical stop. The braking action should be enough to bring the vehicle almost to a full stop ( still, a secondary manual drivetrainfailure-independant rear brake would be nice) from freeway speeds, even on downhill off ramps. Regenerative braking recharge currents can get into the 100 amp range most probably.

Series Wound DC motors aren't ideal for use as a generator. Some of the other styles of motors work well though.
Using a shunt-wound motor and featuring regenerative breaking can most easily be done if modulating the field current instead the armature voltage, just the question how precisely this can be done to your engine ( rotor dic type perm ?).

I have heard that permanent magnet DC motors also work well for generation.

[spinningmagnets]

Concerning the brake-disc/sprocket combo, you are right about spray-lube, using these sprockets restricts you to using a sealed O-ring chain, but they are available in all the popular sizes for those who are interested. Each link is packed with grease and sealed with axially-mounted O-rings. I first used one on a Honda 750 in 1978.

[liveforphysics]

Yep, or much better than O-rings, X-rings.

Lube on a modern sealed chain accelerates it's death.

Running the sprocket always as dry as a brake disk is the best method for longevity and performance.

31,000 miles on my old GSXR-750 chain, and 3 sets of cheap aluminum sprockets, never getting a drop of lube and being parked outside in the weather year round, and when I cut that chain to finally replace it, I was stunned to see it was fully packed with grease on the inside that still looked brand new. Same experience with x-ring dirtbike chains that were never lubed. Old school and very cheap motorcycle chains are not titanium-dioxide coated, and would show surface rust on the outside of them, much like a brake rotor if they didn't have a film of oil/grease on the outside. Modern quality Ti-O2 plated chains are 100% immune to this.

The people who lube there chains, or worst possible scenerio, the people who clean them with a brush or solvents, all are shortening the life of there chains.

Lube forms a base to make a grinding compound out of to wear the external surfaces, as well as lead to swelling and otherwise damaging the x/o-rings. Solvents/cleaners destroy the rings, and leach the grease out of the sealed areas leading towards ruining the chain. Chain brushes scratch at O-rings causing surface damage that starts fissures to lead to premature O/X-ring failures.

Save the lube for bicycle chain and other non-sealed chains.

Modern motorcycle chain has the longest life when ran dry on dry sprockets.


In other words, yes I think it would be fine to put a disk brake on the drive sprocket. However, I seriously question why a rear brake would ever be needed/used on a bike with a high COG. I suppose it makes for braking system redundancy, but certainly does not improve total braking performance in anyway.

[dragonfire]

DOT and similar institution will want a redudant brake, and as for dirtand hardcornering a rear brake is always welcomed to me no matter the cog´s exact location, it´s also making for the "trouble-free" brake lever in daily driving conditions, a lockup of the brake like potentially happening on gravel and trails won´t get you in serious trouble immediately as on a front brake setup, even more if you allready drive sporty and have to release the brake due a lockup... safety is relevant, even more on a regen brake constructed by PMW and beig street legal, the fashion and grade in which problems ere could generate risks of costs are nothing to not take overmuch serious in multiple stages.


Edit: back on topic with the controller communication, according to the kelly website this is done stepless (?) and by using a 0-5 volts current on a circuit with the brake light: " Analog Brake and Throttle Input: 0-5 Volts. . Can use 3-wire pot to produce 0-5V signal." the skateboard controller will degrade voltage in steps but not have a separate fuse for this 0-5 volt controlling, by chance the same system as used in 5k ohm controllers... currie tech has this stuff, too.

[Sheriff Jon]

Here is a just released video of the Shocker in a little off road action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB0Wx49N7ys

[dragonfire]

sweet to see the speed difference in between the riot´s promo videos on the same tracks and those of the shocker, the antidive suhioning characteristics is nicely shown in the middle section where the shocker flies over jumps like a paris-dakar factory rally car, the rider could have just remain seated jumping those at 55+ mph most probably

[fechter]

Here is a just released video of the Shocker in a little off road action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB0Wx49N7ys

Great video!

You can only hear the chain. Seems to have more than enough power

I guess I'll have to ask Steve for a test ride someday...

[recumpence]

The bike looks really well developed. About the only thing I can see that I would even suggest to improve is more suspension dampening on the offroad version. But that is a minor gripe. This thing looks like the real deal.

Matt

[dragonfire]

The bike looks really well developed. About the only thing I can see that I would even suggest to improve is more suspension dampening on the offroad version. But that is a minor gripe. This thing looks like the real deal.

Matt

this can be altered stepless and "on the fly" with a jaw spanner, similar to manual locking differentials on 4wd jeeps back in the day but totally without hydraulics or pressured air involved

[recumpence]

Very cool!

Oh, I wasn't commenting on the design of the suspension at all. I actually like the concept. I was merely commenting on the video. The bike had a little bit of po-going going on. Not much, but noticeable. Easy enough to correct. I was merely pointing out the only thing I could see that seemed not quite spot on.

I am really getting excited to see the new breed of E-motorcycles coming out.

Matt