PMW Shocker

[dragonfire]

this design looks awesome but is proven to be flawed as soon as the user lubes the chain and lube gets on the area that is in charge for the braking.
maybe later materials and hydraulic brakes can compensate for this, dunno, but unfortunately this design seems to be a prime example of something that works well on the screen and on display models ( therory) but runs into Murphy in actual uage conditions.


Edit:

As for the regen, we´d need to know more details about the sensoring and also the engine as for figuring out if regen would make sense on a perm forklift engine.

From what I have heard, nobody has much experience yet with the Kelly controllers and a forklift engine as most use the allready existing forklift controller. Still, they do look to be reasonably priced AND offer regen.

Although shunt-wound motor configurations are less efficient than series-wound schemes, they do offer one advantage that most other motor types can accomplish only with extensive modification and complicated controller configurations, which is regenerative braking. During deceleration, the vehicle can use the forward motion to produce a significant amount of charging current to the batteries, while providing well-controlled braking action. In effect, 15-25% of the battery capacity expended to bring the vehicle up to speed can be recovered during a typical stop. The braking action should be enough to bring the vehicle almost to a full stop ( still, a secondary manual drivetrainfailure-independant rear brake would be nice) from freeway speeds, even on downhill off ramps. Regenerative braking recharge currents can get into the 100 amp range most probably.

Series Wound DC motors aren't ideal for use as a generator. Some of the other styles of motors work well though.
Using a shunt-wound motor and featuring regenerative breaking can most easily be done if modulating the field current instead the armature voltage, just the question how precisely this can be done to your engine ( rotor dic type perm ?).

I have heard that permanent magnet DC motors also work well for generation.

[spinningmagnets]

Concerning the brake-disc/sprocket combo, you are right about spray-lube, using these sprockets restricts you to using a sealed O-ring chain, but they are available in all the popular sizes for those who are interested. Each link is packed with grease and sealed with axially-mounted O-rings. I first used one on a Honda 750 in 1978.

[liveforphysics]

Yep, or much better than O-rings, X-rings.

Lube on a modern sealed chain accelerates it's death.

Running the sprocket always as dry as a brake disk is the best method for longevity and performance.

31,000 miles on my old GSXR-750 chain, and 3 sets of cheap aluminum sprockets, never getting a drop of lube and being parked outside in the weather year round, and when I cut that chain to finally replace it, I was stunned to see it was fully packed with grease on the inside that still looked brand new. Same experience with x-ring dirtbike chains that were never lubed. Old school and very cheap motorcycle chains are not titanium-dioxide coated, and would show surface rust on the outside of them, much like a brake rotor if they didn't have a film of oil/grease on the outside. Modern quality Ti-O2 plated chains are 100% immune to this.

The people who lube there chains, or worst possible scenerio, the people who clean them with a brush or solvents, all are shortening the life of there chains.

Lube forms a base to make a grinding compound out of to wear the external surfaces, as well as lead to swelling and otherwise damaging the x/o-rings. Solvents/cleaners destroy the rings, and leach the grease out of the sealed areas leading towards ruining the chain. Chain brushes scratch at O-rings causing surface damage that starts fissures to lead to premature O/X-ring failures.

Save the lube for bicycle chain and other non-sealed chains.

Modern motorcycle chain has the longest life when ran dry on dry sprockets.


In other words, yes I think it would be fine to put a disk brake on the drive sprocket. However, I seriously question why a rear brake would ever be needed/used on a bike with a high COG. I suppose it makes for braking system redundancy, but certainly does not improve total braking performance in anyway.

[dragonfire]

DOT and similar institution will want a redudant brake, and as for dirtand hardcornering a rear brake is always welcomed to me no matter the cog´s exact location, it´s also making for the "trouble-free" brake lever in daily driving conditions, a lockup of the brake like potentially happening on gravel and trails won´t get you in serious trouble immediately as on a front brake setup, even more if you allready drive sporty and have to release the brake due a lockup... safety is relevant, even more on a regen brake constructed by PMW and beig street legal, the fashion and grade in which problems ere could generate risks of costs are nothing to not take overmuch serious in multiple stages.


Edit: back on topic with the controller communication, according to the kelly website this is done stepless (?) and by using a 0-5 volts current on a circuit with the brake light: " Analog Brake and Throttle Input: 0-5 Volts. . Can use 3-wire pot to produce 0-5V signal." the skateboard controller will degrade voltage in steps but not have a separate fuse for this 0-5 volt controlling, by chance the same system as used in 5k ohm controllers... currie tech has this stuff, too.

[Sheriff Jon]

Here is a just released video of the Shocker in a little off road action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB0Wx49N7ys

[dragonfire]

sweet to see the speed difference in between the riot´s promo videos on the same tracks and those of the shocker, the antidive suhioning characteristics is nicely shown in the middle section where the shocker flies over jumps like a paris-dakar factory rally car, the rider could have just remain seated jumping those at 55+ mph most probably

[fechter]

Here is a just released video of the Shocker in a little off road action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB0Wx49N7ys

Great video!

You can only hear the chain. Seems to have more than enough power

I guess I'll have to ask Steve for a test ride someday...

[recumpence]

The bike looks really well developed. About the only thing I can see that I would even suggest to improve is more suspension dampening on the offroad version. But that is a minor gripe. This thing looks like the real deal.

Matt

[dragonfire]

The bike looks really well developed. About the only thing I can see that I would even suggest to improve is more suspension dampening on the offroad version. But that is a minor gripe. This thing looks like the real deal.

Matt

this can be altered stepless and "on the fly" with a jaw spanner, similar to manual locking differentials on 4wd jeeps back in the day but totally without hydraulics or pressured air involved

[recumpence]

Very cool!

Oh, I wasn't commenting on the design of the suspension at all. I actually like the concept. I was merely commenting on the video. The bike had a little bit of po-going going on. Not much, but noticeable. Easy enough to correct. I was merely pointing out the only thing I could see that seemed not quite spot on.

I am really getting excited to see the new breed of E-motorcycles coming out.

Matt

[PatmontS]

Thanks guys,
Though the rear swing arm setting is fine for the street it was way too soft for dirt. We have lots of dirt time on the front swing arm but this was our first experience in the dirt with the rear. An easy bench tuning adjustment and we'll take it to a motocross track for the next test. Stay tuned.

[recumpence]

Cool. Crank up the damping and let-er-rip!

Matt

[dragonfire]

random find, as the conceptional setup minus cidli is somewhat similar (but there are 2 engine variants) i thought i´d post the link anyways:

http://www.quantya.com/


To Mr patmont:

on an unrelated side note, do you know a folding bike of some sorts ( the ones with 24 inch and smaller tire diameters) at which the go-bike rack kit does fit at well (since both bike and drive system would fit in like a standard trolley easily when folded and could carry said trolley on the baggage rack in after the kit is erected when arriving on site) ?

Or a kind of "Riot" ith e-drive, the rear cidli in a secondary mounting hull in open can/ cylindrical form in order to make the rear arm easily deatachable for transport, that way the rear unit containing the original ESR engine/ drivetrain and liPo container can be deatached and the three/ two parts ( plus seat) could also fold down to a small package, iven more if you adapt bicycle pole´s that clamp into the lower vertikal steering pole at the t-bar setup ( yet unsure about the fastening mechanism in order to use that feature and safely lock two positions without tools).

This is the kind of flight baggage not only pilots would like to have with, and the smaller lipo setup should suit the new safety regulations, too ? Some nice alloy (rimova-knockoff in good quality from asia...) trolley "sample" with mounting straps to safely fix the "mobility pack" in truck bed or convertible´s rear seat belts would allow to sell this vial sharper image or hamacher schlemmer or whoever else turns high sales numbers on such items in neatly packed form.

A small and coustom-mouled tornister for the i-ped would be asking to much.

[dragonfire]

regen braking with the resonsiveness needed for a motorbike is not that easy to make and more complex, reference put to the setups of "Twike" and "twip", Roth/ go Motorboards was not the first company that hard a hard time with regen braking.

how abour cruise control ? ( http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/produ ... ctid=16173 )

One or two more years will get us supercapacitors with ten times the current capacity, 30 pounds of capacitors will get you 25+ miles range of a motorbike and in excess to 50 miles on a foldable scooter or riot setup and will recharge in few minutes only.
This and the dropping protection on patents of bigger seize cells using lipo chemistry (so most probaly even better bipolar Lipo´s ) will fix this minor issue in the rev b "Shocker" :

5-10 Years in later comes a <25lbs mini i-ped that can be charged from a usb port or by inductive charging "mats" that can be built in below bycicle baths ( alike street marking painture, powered by solar and wind energy, solar panels covered and reflective by night replacing said sreet markings) to power all sorts of pev´s and mobility aid vehicles, maybe even from pure "star dust" aka microwaves of some wavelenghts hitting on nanoscale folded ( for moar surface) batterie material ( russian-jewish patent ftw).

So don´t wait months for details like that, how it registrationing going ?
On a side note, getting a pedelec cruise control on the go-bike rack kit instead the thumb- only throttle would make this set competitively priced with the addon of fitting most bike setups no matter axle width, even foldable bikes ( make a second latch/hinge version to choose for if the current one is for bigger bikes), and no fuzz with hubmotor installs.
since the european law changed in 2006 it´s allready legit to ride the kit if speed is limited ( "prammed down") to 25 km/h for yurop and 40 km/h as for switzerland - but needs mofa tag ( so generating fees of 80 bucks a year minimum) but no licencing/ homologation of manufacturer or drivers licence/ minimum riders age, though.
being a pedelec and not an e-bike woudld save this tag and fee and also appeals to a broader range of users, too. And as sole of your products ( yet) fully legal to use in europe, using state of the art technology ( minus brushed low rpm/ voltage engine without delta/ wye option or cruise control/ regen option, but there is allways room for improvement), it would be worth some marketing efforts of the dealers and to aquire new ones as this can be dropshipped cheaply and convenient.

I´ll stop to get offtopic now, i hope there will be a new and electrifying video release of the "shocker" by soon.

[PatmontS]

FYI,
The Shocker prototype will be at Laguna Seca race track next Sunday July 19th testing itself with other similar vehicles. Everyone's welcome to come for the day. Only $10/person.
Hope to see some of you homies there.

http://www.refuelraces.com/Default.aspx

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06...during-refuel/
__________________

[12p3phPMDC]

Patmont,

I like your story man....Garage builds to production to fights agains knockoffs...

Any thoughts of bicycles with the CIDLI suspension?

Any thoughts of bicycle front suspension forks kind of like the retrofit kits for the scooters?

I would buy one!

Chris

[dragonfire]

th epms ( do you have the version with hall sensors and how many? 2or 3 phase layout? ) at this setup may profit from a setup using magnetic or optoelectronic sensors to allow a more efficient actuating of the windings, if using two static rotos discs, put up some optocouplers ( can´t be disturbed by electric noise while magnotos may can)and a switch to get the discs 30 offset if delta/ Wye is possible on them ( 3 phase), otherwise one rotor with like 6-12 couplers should suffit the purpose.

perm allready claims in excess to 90 % efficiency, most probably only in delta and on the version with hall sensors and fitted controller 8 hence they sell them) - the kelly goes another not fully ohm´ed out route.

[PatmontS]

Excellent questions and suggestions dragonfire,

Though we'd have to kiiilll ya if we told you too much, we've left most of those functions up to the fully automatic on board PPGS (Proprietary Pragmatic Gazebo Synthesizer).

[dragonfire]

thanks for the warm words;

considering the 120´ies origin this gazebo-synthesizer ( sounds like a spongebob-quote) is modulated for torque, an amplitude alteration as http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F6727668 is far loer effective than delta7wye but seemigly something to consider on a vehicle that wants to coast sometimes and has no gears.
A more "yasseeboo" ( smoother sinuscurves) type of setting.

as for the optoelectric sensors, did you knew there are "reeded" ones available in microseize that can easily fitsomehere inside the case or running rotor of the perm ( 3i or others may have the right adhesive for that or you go the rfid-way here and simply drill some holes and use some industrial adhesive liquid glue). "multiple-casereeded electric powerplant" sounds cool, eh ?

the fact that these sensors could power an abs within the regen and signal output could drive another release-valve on hydraulic external hub brakes comes as an additional benefit.
if using a 4 or 7-wire technique now for the actual acceleration but regen purpose only your regen setting could alter it´s amplitude according the load on the rear wheel when decelarating, too, so the switchover from regen braking power over gravel braking power into the abs range i regen only would be a smooth one.

[PatmontS]

Our first race track test for the Shocker prototype turned out better than expected for Team PMW. We entered the Re-Fuel electric performance TT event at the world famous Laguna Seca Raceway on Sunday, and came away with our first podium finish! Though still at 85% controller setting we posted the second fastest lap time for electric motorcycles, and only two seconds behind the fastest.
Both race pilots Gabe Patmont and Scott Bolton reported the CIDLI suspension performed flawlessly, and liquid cooling kept the electron management systems cool all day long. The Super Motard setup with beefy front disc brake got a real workout. They had the slicks scrubbed all the way to the sidewalls.
We'll post the "Shocker Testing #4" YouTube video later this week. I love the cork screw shot.

[PatmontS]

As promised, the vid to accompany the previous post;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raJGTHga ... r_embedded

[fechter]

Awesome! Who was first?

[PatmontS]

Awesome! Who was first?

Thanks!

Though we posted higher practice lap times, the guys from ElectricMotorSports beat us by two seconds in the official time trials;

http://www.plugbike.com/2009/07/22/elec ... at-refuel/

[dragonfire]

Any luck with a bidirectional throttle, Steve?

tis patent on alike applications belongs to Vectrix, possibly now on sale...

[Miles]

tis patent on alike applications belongs to Vectrix, possibly now on sale...

You're joking?