50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby gwhy! » Fri May 21, 2010 1:53 pm

vanilla ice wrote:Ah thanks, missed that thread. The old yamaha 50cc scooter in my drive way is calling my visa card.. must resist!


no worries, Do not resist !!!! :D If you are going to give in to temptation then I would recommend getting a motor with a much higher kv ( it will take a lot of the guess work out of sorting the gearing ) look for some thing around 200 -250kv, http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7710&Product_Name=TGY_AerodriveXp_160_SK_Series_63-64_230Kv_/_3150W would be a good choice but just a tad underpowered ( but it still wont dissapoint :wink: ) unless you are thinking of running a higher voltage than 44v :wink:, My guess is that the stock gearing on your yam will be taller than on my skp so with the same motor setup as I have it should do 50 :D .
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby Thud » Fri May 21, 2010 4:42 pm

That sounds fantastic gwhy.
I am working on getting halls mounted to my turnigys this weekend. & I Ihave no worrys that the motor will push my little speedway build to competitive levels with the gassers at an upcoming race meet. (50cc motored bikes)
I have totaly enjoyed watching this build progress. & it is great news that this transmision style works for electrics at this level.
:mrgreen: Another internet beer is in order here! :mrgreen:

looking forward to a video.
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby gwhy! » Sun May 23, 2010 2:27 pm

Small update:
I haven't had chance to get out to do a more descriptive video, but my son came round and I got him to have a go on it. Its not the best video in the world but it is something. I am away for a few days now so no more vids till I come back. My Lad was a bit warry of just gunning up the driveway, he couldnt get over how much the thing pulled from a stand still :mrgreen: he also said it felt like it could loop out.
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby spdas » Sun May 23, 2010 4:12 pm

Aloha, and great work on the crankshaft attachment to the motor. I was wondering how you were going to do it! I may start a build myself if i get some spare time. For higher top speed I would be looking at getting a set of gears for the Diff, (Maybe a 7:1) .... that is what is needed for a gas 'ped if you need to get out of the 55-60 mph range and into the 80+ range.
Also a larger diameter Variator and driven face like a Kitaco, maybe as well as the heaviest weights. Try a slightly longer and wider belt so the belt does not go all the way down on the variator boss. (Machine the variator and driven face to close really tight) and with the wider/longer belt your belt should climb all the way out past the variator BEFORE you run out of pulley on the clutch side.) I am not sure what diameter weights you have (yamaha size?) if so, try Honda as they are a bit larger diameter and will close the variator halves closer without falling out. Also using an FRP ramp will help hold steady rpms vs pulley openings. Do you have a moped breaker nearby that would have an assortment of bits? In the southeast, (Maidstone?) try Chris at Scooters-r-us.

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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby ryan_lirui » Sun May 23, 2010 4:58 pm

I've been thinking a lot about this cvt set up of yours gwy and I was thinking what might be a big help to you is if you change up the type of throttle you're using. As far I as I know, you're using a speed based throttle, which is good for a sort of direct drive set up like most electric bikes, but might not be ideal for your application.

My interpretation of a cvt in a normal ICE engine application is that it juggles the ratio on the pulleys to always keep the motor in the optimum rpm range of your motor. When engine rpm increases, ideally those rollers fan out to adjust the pulley to a ratio that is best suited for the motor at that point in its rpm range. As a driver, you scale the amount of power you want to put through the system with the motor and the CVT translates that into wheel speed.

Currently what you're doing is a bit counter-intuitive, you're adjusting the rpm range of your motor directly and then letting the pulleys juggle around faster or slower according to the amount of rpm your motor's running at. This is probably why you're pulling less current than you did before using a CVT when you try to accelerate. What I think would be ideal is if you use a current-based throttle so that you're directly adjusting how much power you want to put through the system and the CVT be used at its greatest potential.

This way, you could optimize your set up so that you can focus more on a higher top speed and not worry as much about getting it to engage properly at lower rpm because you'll be able to crank the throttle and get full amperage out of the motor to get it up to speed.

Fechter's Current-Based Throttle: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78&hilit=current+based+throttle

I'm not claiming to be the expert, but please give it some thought. If someone can spot the error in my logic here then please do so.
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby gwhy! » Sun May 23, 2010 5:46 pm

spdas wrote:Aloha, and great work on the crankshaft attachment to the motor. I was wondering how you were going to do it! I may start a build myself if i get some spare time. For higher top speed I would be looking at getting a set of gears for the Diff, (Maybe a 7:1) .... that is what is needed for a gas 'ped if you need to get out of the 55-60 mph range and into the 80+ range.
Also a larger diameter Variator and driven face like a Kitaco, maybe as well as the heaviest weights. Try a slightly longer and wider belt so the belt does not go all the way down on the variator boss. (Machine the variator and driven face to close really tight) and with the wider/longer belt your belt should climb all the way out past the variator BEFORE you run out of pulley on the clutch side.) I am not sure what diameter weights you have (yamaha size?) if so, try Honda as they are a bit larger diameter and will close the variator halves closer without falling out. Also using an FRP ramp will help hold steady rpms vs pulley openings. Do you have a moped breaker nearby that would have an assortment of bits? In the southeast, (Maidstone?) try Chris at Scooters-r-us.

Francis


Thanks spdas,
The gearing at the back wheel would be the logical way increase the top end speed but first I what to see how far it can be pushed with stock, there are a few options to play with I am only running it on 44v at the moment so I can up the voltage but this would involve replacing my fets in my speed controller they are only rated at 75v and I think to make it viable it would be nice to try it on 88v ( which should nearly double the speed ) or I can gear up the motor to the crank with a 1:2 ratio this will also nearly double the speed. The motor is not being pushed hard at all so it has a lot more to give. I would be a bit concerned about upping the voltage due to there is a slight vibration through the crank because the motor is not 100% inline with it and the whole thing may just vibrate it self apart if run at 16krpm :mrgreen: that is also if the controller will still work upto those rpm levels. running a gear up to the crank may also have vibration problems but at least I will not have to mod my speed controller. The belt is worn and if replaced may add another 5mph also the variator face is quite grooved so if this was replaced this may add yet another 5mph but I didnt want to start spending to much money on it. If I can get hold of a gear set for the back wheel cheap enough this is begining to look like a much better way forward now :D . I may have to checkout Scooters-r-us thanks for the heads up. I have no way of machining the driven face so this is not a option. The rollers are 19x15.5 and weighted to 17.5g and It still feels like it can push even a heavier roller but needs "road testing to be sure". Well there is quite a few things to think about. The bottom end performance is really good and I think can be improved some more but now I need to concentrate on top end :D

ryan_lirui wrote:I've been thinking a lot about this cvt set up of yours gwy and I was thinking what might be a big help to you is if you change up the type of throttle you're using. As far I as I know, you're using a speed based throttle, which is good for a sort of direct drive set up like most electric bikes, but might not be ideal for your application.

My interpretation of a cvt in a normal ICE engine application is that it juggles the ratio on the pulleys to always keep the motor in the optimum rpm range of your motor. When engine rpm increases, ideally those rollers fan out to adjust the pulley to a ratio that is best suited for the motor at that point in its rpm range. As a driver, you scale the amount of power you want to put through the system with the motor and the CVT translates that into wheel speed.

Currently what you're doing is a bit counter-intuitive, you're adjusting the rpm range of your motor directly and then letting the pulleys juggle around faster or slower according to the amount of rpm your motor's running at. This is probably why you're pulling less current than you did before using a CVT when you try to accelerate. What I think would be ideal is if you use a current-based throttle so that you're directly adjusting how much power you want to put through the system and the CVT be used at its greatest potential.

This way, you could optimize your set up so that you can focus more on a higher top speed and not worry as much about getting it to engage properly at lower rpm because you'll be able to crank the throttle and get full amperage out of the motor to get it up to speed.

Fechter's Current-Based Throttle: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... d+throttle

I'm not claiming to be the expert, but please give it some thought. If someone can spot the error in my logic here then please do so.


I think you may be right if looking at it to gain max efficiency this may be quite a neat way of doing it and will take the guess work out of finding the sweet spot for the throttle once upto your desired speed. I will give it some thought, but at the moment I need more top end :D , once I achieve my target speed of 60mph+ with the motor that I have Which is more than doable I will start looking into making it more efficient.
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby maydaverave » Sun May 23, 2010 6:41 pm

a 150 cc scoot doesn't weigh much more or cost much more than a 50 cc scoot and it is built and geared for higher speeds.
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby vanilla ice » Sun May 23, 2010 7:45 pm

In my experience looking for cheap old scooters, it is way easier to find the small ones. Hardly ever see the big ones for cheap. I can see how its smarter to go big if you're paying more for a new or late model used one though.
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby dbaker » Sun May 23, 2010 8:04 pm

Great job on the scoot, Gwhy?! I can see now where you are using your external sensors. 60MPH!

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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby Thud » Sun May 23, 2010 8:50 pm

gwhy,
Are you using your 6fet controllers on this? :shock:
(I am sooo anticipating my bike with that motor & this thread has been 100% encouragment)
I am totaly impressed with this builds success.
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby maydaverave » Sun May 23, 2010 8:54 pm

With the cheap prices of rc products and used scoots with some skill and hardwork it is possible to make one cool little toy. Thanks for the inovation :D
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby maydaverave » Sun May 23, 2010 9:04 pm

vanilla ice wrote:In my experience looking for cheap old scooters, it is way easier to find the small ones. Hardly ever see the big ones for cheap. I can see how its smarter to go big if you're paying more for a new or late model used one though.

150 cc scoots usually don't cost that much more, the only real reason to buy a 50cc scoot instead of a 150 cc scoot is in most places a different license isn't required. There is a big jump in price and weight from 150cc to 250cc though. Many times the only real difference between a 50cc model and 150cc model is bore and gearing.
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby gwhy! » Fri May 28, 2010 12:03 pm

maydaverave wrote:a 150 cc scoot doesn't weigh much more or cost much more than a 50 cc scoot and it is built and geared for higher speeds.

Yes I think it may save a bit of money in the long run if you are looking for high end performace to go for a slightly bigger cc scoot.

dbaker wrote:Great job on the scoot, Gwhy?! I can see now where you are using your external sensors. 60MPH!

Dave


Thanks Dave,
The halls work a treat :wink: . 60MPH+ easy , just down to bottle :mrgreen: , I have rode these little 50cc scoots in the past just beyond 60+ for normal road use but it all starts to get a bit scary, but with a little nip and tuck of the frame geo they can start to feel very stable again upto around 90 :D .

Thud wrote:gwhy,
Are you using your 6fet controllers on this? :shock:
(I am sooo anticipating my bike with that motor & this thread has been 100% encouragment)
I am totaly impressed with this builds success.


This is the 12fet controller with STANDARD fets but with beefed up tracks and current limited to 70A!!, The controller works well but do get hot so needs to be nursed a little ( I will be rehousing and also some form of forced cooling ) Its the cooling that Im finding is the limiting factor for these controllers ( and this is defo down to the enclosure design ). The 6 fet will have no problems pushing the scoot at 70A all day long if I wanted it to ( it has up rated fets installed + better cooling).
I'm Hopeing that the efficency numbers works out now as this can and will open up a big new area in performance/speed on any type of ev ( I wonder how compact a cvt can be made :?: )
I hope your build kicks some butt with the motor/controller combo, its all good stuff and I'm pleased that my bit of playing has given you some encouragement with your venture ( but I think you were already on the case :D )
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby katou » Fri May 28, 2010 5:05 pm

Since it is working so well now, could you time it from zero to 60? I think that most here would be familiar with the common times and what they feel like, it would really help me understand the performance level.

I love reading about this project. If you ever take it apart to tune/repair it, it would make a great picture essay.

It's got me looking at scooters very differently...


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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby gwhy! » Sat May 29, 2010 12:43 pm

Update:
I have made a decision about the top speed thing. At the moment I am going to concentrate on using the stock gearing, I had a look at the current gear set fitted in the scoot and they are pressed type ( primary to secondary ) and as I have not got access to a 15ton press this will be the last thing to play with but I have priced up a gear up kit and it looks like I can get one at a reasonable price when I go down that route.
scooter gears.jpg
(57.72 KiB) Downloaded 353 times

I will also only be using the 44v for the time being ( I may up it to 60v'ish later ). The plan is to replace the belt with a new slightly longer one as spdas has already suggested , this then should give me my 50-55mph on a fully charged set of batterys ( 48v). Then it should not be to stressfull for the crank and motor ( vibration thing ) just to up the voltage a tad to around 60-65v ( fully charged )to get me to that 60mph+.

katou wrote:Since it is working so well now, could you time it from zero to 60? I think that most here would be familiar with the common times and what they feel like, it would really help me understand the performance level.

I love reading about this project. If you ever take it apart to tune/repair it, it would make a great picture essay.

It's got me looking at scooters very differently...


Katou


I will do a timed 0-30mph and also a timed 0-max mph when I get the chance ( may even offer my son inlaw to have a bit of a sprint race which will be good for comparison as he has a de-restricted 50cc scoot that he thinks is fast :mrgreen: )
Scoots are great fun, very easy to work on and ride very well ( not like the old days ). I just wish more people will cut them some slack. :wink:
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby richerson » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:47 am

great work!!

I have just bought a motor (on back order) and searching for a scoot know. :D

If i can make it pull wheelies and a top speed of 45 I will be more than happy.
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby gwhy! » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:42 pm

richerson wrote:great work!!

I have just bought a motor (on back order) and searching for a scoot know. :D

If i can make it pull wheelies and a top speed of 45 I will be more than happy.


My scoot project has can to a bit of a standstill for the moment, I have been waiting to find the time to take it out on some private roads for some serious testing. It pulls like a train with a 70A limit @ 44v ( the motor was not even braking sweat ) and yes the front do get very light so Im sure it will wheelie with a little bit of a pull up :mrgreen: The top speed of my scoot isnt confirmed yet on a longer run but the limiting testing that I have done on a fully charged battery 50v it reaches 40'ish mph this is with all stock gearing ( except the rollers are a lot heavier ) more voltage or re-gear the back wheel will easy push you over the 45mph mark :wink:

p.s. PM sent.
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby katou » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:29 pm

This is a question regarding scoots in general. They seem to come in 49cc, 100cc, 150cc, 180cc, 250cc, but above 150 they are pretty massive.

How many horsepower does each one have?

I'm starting a few inquiries relating to finding a scoot with a dead IC engine...

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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby gwhy! » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:05 pm

katou wrote:This is a question regarding scoots in general. They seem to come in 49cc, 100cc, 150cc, 180cc, 250cc, but above 150 they are pretty massive.

How many horsepower does each one have?

I'm starting a few inquiries relating to finding a scoot with a dead IC engine...

Katou


Stock scoots have very small HP 49cc around 3HP at the crank, I currently ride a maxi scooter, 500cc and it only produces 39HP at the crank, the 125cc are around 10hp ,250cc around 18hp. I think its been said before in this thread look for a 125cc or above as this will have better gearing for faster speeds i.e around 65mph with the gas engine running at around 8-10krpm. The small scoots <125cc will be around 50-55mph between 8-10krpm
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby olaf-lampe » Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:05 am

Very nice build Gwhy!
Still I'm curious about efficiency. 40A no load and 70A peak indicates a horrible loss.

I think of building a push-trailer for my recumbent based on your scooter swing arm design.
If only the HXT motors will be on stock some day! :x
Do you think this one would be suitable? It's even cheaper and on stock :twisted:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... Kv_/_3150W

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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby gwhy! » Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:45 am

olaf-lampe wrote:Very nice build Gwhy!
Still I'm curious about efficiency. 40A no load and 70A peak indicates a horrible loss.

I think of building a push-trailer for my recumbent based on your scooter swing arm design.
If only the HXT motors will be on stock some day! :x
Do you think this one would be suitable? It's even cheaper and on stock :twisted:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... Kv_/_3150W

-Olaf


Hi Olaf,
Yes the jury is still out as regard efficiency ( The 40A is the min current when running the scoot 70A is max no matter what hills or load ( its current limited )).
Yes I think that motor you pointed to would do the job very well... I really need to get my scoot for a long run to really find out the efficiecy :(

I think with a bit more care in mounting the motor this could be brought down to around 30A min and with that motor that you pointed to maybe even down to 20-25A .
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby grindz145 » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:29 am

I've been toying with this idea as well, Find a little piaggio scoot with a blown motor and rework it for electric. Thanks for make the how-to:D
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby etard » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:12 pm

Freakin awesome Gwhy!!!! :twisted:

I don't know how I missed this thread, but I just read the whole thing and am now scouring the countryside for free donor scooter. :| You do amazing work and your changes and tweaks are so methodical, definately inspirational. Thanks you for providing this with plenty of detailed pics. I have a few questions though.

In terms of cooling the controller, where did you end up mounting the 12fet? I wonder if strapping it under the foot platform with maybe a scoop to direct air over it migh get the job done.

You are not nearly pushing the limits of that motor but have you thought about replacing the bearings if you haven't already, this could give you alot more efficiency that would only improve with speed.

I like how you covered the motor, very stealth. But if you want yo make some cash on the side, leave it open and let the ICE guys laugh, challenge them to a race, collect earnings. :wink:
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby gwhy! » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:51 pm

etard wrote:Freakin awesome Gwhy!!!! :twisted:

I don't know how I missed this thread, but I just read the whole thing and am now scouring the countryside for free donor scooter. :| You do amazing work and your changes and tweaks are so methodical, definately inspirational. Thanks you for providing this with plenty of detailed pics. I have a few questions though.

In terms of cooling the controller, where did you end up mounting the 12fet? I wonder if strapping it under the foot platform with maybe a scoop to direct air over it migh get the job done.

You are not nearly pushing the limits of that motor but have you thought about replacing the bearings if you haven't already, this could give you alot more efficiency that would only improve with speed.

I like how you covered the motor, very stealth. But if you want yo make some cash on the side, leave it open and let the ICE guys laugh, challenge them to a race, collect earnings. :wink:


Thanks etard,

The controller when I was testing was just under the seat along with the battery's ( no air cooling at all ) when I do get round to mount it properly it will go under the rear wheel arch for some forced air cooling from the back wheel. This project has sort of been put on hold for the time being because of the stupid uk laws :evil: I will hopefully get round to taking it onto some private roads to do some video but its like every thing else its finding the time.

The motor like you have said is not being used no where near as hard as it could be but as it is, it remains at ambit temp, the bearings have already been replaced, there is quite a bit of loss due to the way that the motor is mounted its slightly off center and this has caused a small tight spot in the rotation :( .

Yes the original cover fits very nicely over the motor and offers a fair bit of weather protection for it but I like where you are coming from about the bling/laugh factor and making a bit of money :P , and yes I think it will blow away most of the scoots that I have seen around my area in a straight sprint , especially if I upped the current to the motor to get the true rating out of it. I think it would even give my 500cc ice scoot a run for its money 8)
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Re: 50cc auto scooter conversion to electric (with video)

Postby shaggy » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:32 pm

Many thanks for this thread Gwhy, this is almost exactly what i was looking for when came to this forum.

My aim is slightly different from yours though, as of last year, the local rules allow a moped to be electric, up to 70kph, about 43 mph. I can get to work on 50-60kph roads, so a street legal moped with 70 on tap with acceleration to match or beat the cars, would be a perfect commuter. I have confirmed with the registration authorities that there is no need to re-register, just need to let the insurance know...hmmm...

So, with a similar base vehicle to yours, ( would prefer a more motorcycle type, but rare with auto ) what sort of motor/controller/battery should I be looking at?

Target

1. 42 mph top speed ( it's the answer to everything )
2. Strong, but not insane. acceleration enough to keep with the cars or get out in front.
3. 50-60km range. Say30-40 miles.

Any guidance would be much appreciated.
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