Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:03 pm

Awesome Mark! Was it difficult doing a tilting trike mechanism? I had considered the idea when i was thinking of doing a reverse trike but all those angles and such were just too much to deal with, but i never considered it on a regular trike, probably wouldn't be that bad. Of course i have a monoshock at rear so i would have to come up with a tripod joint to connect to the monoshock and the ?two? swing arms?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby gwhy! » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:04 pm

Thats a hell of a weight... :shock: spose cos of the sla's but I think it would still work but performance would be down on what I estimated. 2 motors on the same shaft from one controller would be ok but they would have to be synced to each other as you have said, or you can run 1 motor using halls and the other using a sensorless controller ( not 100% sure this would work, as I dont know of anyone that have done it ) use the sensored motor to pull away then feed in the power from the sensorless controller to the other motor. The motors will work but having a controller/s to drive would be the problem this is why I said if you can incorporate some sort of variable gearing to help not distroy the controller/s. If you run both motors from 1 sensored controller you would only need one set of halls.

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby johnhead@frontiernet.net » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:22 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:Awesome Mark! Was it difficult doing a tilting trike mechanism? I had considered the idea when i was thinking of doing a reverse trike but all those angles and such were just too much to deal with, but i never considered it on a regular trike, probably wouldn't be that bad. Of course i have a monoshock at rear so i would have to come up with a tripod joint to connect to the monoshock and the ?two? swing arms?

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For an initial look at some leaning (pedal) trike geometry check out "http://jetrike.com/"
I began there and modified his dimensions to give less lift and less loading (I moved the linkages away from the swing arm pivot points etc.). I do use a monoshock to support both wheels and provide cushioning. While this trike looks LONG it is no longer than the longest commercially produced two wheeled motorcycle (Suzuki "chopper" clone).
"Think three times, measure twice, cut once!"
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:08 pm

johnhead@frontiernet.net wrote:"Think three times, measure twice, cut once!"


I'd like to slightly modify your statement to fit me better "Think seventy-three times, measure twice, cut once!"
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:47 am

Ok, just researching in the ev parts section of the forum and found this page. http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?mai ... ucts_id=60 for the 48 volt 20ah lipo packs for $619 with BMS built in! That is awesome!!! At that price it actually lowers my cost to run per mile from 3.8 cents to 1.8 cents!! That's factoring in the cost of replacing the battery packs. New game plan :twisted: start with used lead acids to prove concept and then give my bike a LIPO-suction and have it all. :lol: While not having to lug around 2-300 lbs of batteries. :shock: :!: My sla chargers will be delivered by courier today. :? Lame start to receiving my parts but hopefully others will soon follow.

If I hook the Lipo's in parallel for upped ah i need a separate charger for each pack i believe is that right? Anyone have a suggestion on a charger as from what I've seen they're quite expensive as well. Gonna go search the forum but thought i'd throw it out there as well.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:07 am

Ok, time for some fun. Here's my first "build" I use the term loosely!
Image
This was back in Summer 2004 and I was 22. I got the bike from the dump, and the motor from ebay. Put some lights and a SLA on it as well. Total cost $350. It did top speed 45kmph and could carry me up "most" hills. Which was just marginally less speed and power than a weed whacker engine id used b4 :roll: Whoda thought, shoulda kept the ww engine! Went through 2 of these engines in 6 months. They were junk.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:30 am

Ok, so, time for a real update. So far I have my Chargers, Motors, Controllers (possibly), (Rear tires 13", brakes, bearings, spindles - from a late model Toyota donor car). I am waiting on Hall sensors, pinion gears for motor, DC-DC converter. I took another look at the bike today and did some wrenching. The result is a LOT better than my original Concept pic. Taking KiM's advice on lowering my COG I tried to see what could be done without modifying the frame. The result is pretty stark contrast to b4.
Image
I included a cutout from the last concept pic which shows relationship according to the white line on the wall. BIG Difference!

Heres a view from back. Actual spacing between rear tires is yet to be determined, but will be defined by width of the battery pack, frame, sprockets, and other components. Aiming to keep it as narrow as possible without making it too sideways tippy.
Image
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:57 am

I've got some questions regarding below pics, in my controllers the fets (12 of them) are all the same, yet they are set up differently than I expected to see as they are not all identical. The gate connection on the board always looks the same but the drain and source alternate from left to right like SS-DD-SS-DD-SS-DD. Can someone explain to me why the fets are set up like that? I'm getting really interested in electronics and I want to understand why they would do that?

I am planning to beef up the traces for the fets and upgrade the power and motor wires to handle the extra current. If i'm not upping the voltage, do I need to upgrade the schottkeys or install extra caps?

In the 3rd pic there is RS1 and RS2. I'm guessing this is resistive shunt 1 and 2 for the current limiting. What do I have to do to make the controller allow a larger current? In the first pic I Circled where RS1&2 come through on the board.

[Photos Deleted as obsolete]
Last edited by inspiredvoltfreak on Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby jonescg » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:32 am

"What do I have to do to make the controller allow a larger current?"

Buy a bigger controller :lol: No seriously, you might be able to mod the controller but in general the components are rated to a certain level of abuse, and have heatsinks to suit. The moment you start asking it to do something out of the ordinary and pushing it beyond its normal limits you can potentially burn stuff out. Like me and my Kelly controller - the Motors are expected to pull close to 800 A, but it was easier to just order the biggest controller as practical and let it stay cool. Just because a Datsun 120Y will get up to 160 km/h doesn't mean it will do that speed all the time.

For reference, my RG with two agni motors pulls 520 amps from the line, and the voltage drops to 98 V (from a steady 106 V). If you want the trike to keep up with traffic while still using BL motors, I'd seriously suggest you consider a gearbox.

I was discussing these issues with Rob at EVWorks today as the Agni motors I have are great, but man they are a pain in the arse to work with. Brushless or induction motors would be a less maintenance intensive but the controllers and or inverters aren't really up to the abuse I plan on giving them. I might go for a UQM motor in my next build...


All the best with your build man! I love your quote by the way ;)

PS I still reckon a 2 wheel conversion would be awesome. I don't like trikes, too dangerous :?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:13 pm

jones,
I actually am planning on using a gearbox now as i realized with my rear wheel drive plans I have no choice. Not enough room there for a large gear. So I've ordered a pair of gearboxes in to experiment with. I am planning on having about a total 10:1 reduction on 48V which will give me just under 100kph. But having said that I've given up on those controllers i purchased and am in the market for replacements. I wasn't careful enough when i purchased them and they have some sort of anti-theft connector that i can't figure out. No matter what I do I can't get it to run the motor. I can put it in learning mode and it will try to spin the motor but when I use the throttle, nothing! I'm going to go with one that doesn't have all the extra security connectors on it. I am still considering modding a controller but then i found these controllers http://www.newkellycontroller.com/keb48300-150a-p-60.html
Which are an exact match for my bike. No mosfet upgrade required, pc programmable, (99% efficient in most cases), reasonably priced. I start to wonder, I already blew 100 on the last set of controllers, i'm ready to blow another 100 on a new set, plus 50 worth of mosfets. For what?? I'm no electronics expert. I'm just beginning to fiddle with it. I'm probably going to go with the kellys. 2 controllers, programming cable and throttle with matching hand grip for opposite side for only $409 canadian + shipping???

EDIT: "Just bought them, I went back to digikey and realized i was going to spend 100 there not 50. So for double the money, It's a sweet deal!"
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:08 am

I am really liking the price point on these cells

http://alliancerenewableenergy.com/remo ... D943A279A3

3v 100ah cells for only $107, to buy 16 cells and make a 48v 100ah pack would cost me $1720 +shipping.
of course, then i have to do all the work of setting it up with a BMS and such. Is there a good thread someone can point me to that will tell me all i need to know about this? This would be a huge investment so I want to take care of the cells.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby x88x » Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:26 pm

I just this last night, but since you're using car tires on the back tires, you might need to check your state regulations on trikes. I know in MD there's a regulation that the combined rear tire width on a trike cannot exceed a certain size. I forget what it is, but I believe it's quite large... Anyways, just something to check. Don't want to finish it and then get turned down when you go to register for a simple thing that would have been easily fixed.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:44 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:I am really liking the price point on these cells

http://alliancerenewableenergy.com/remo ... D943A279A3

3v 100ah cells for only $107, to buy 16 cells and make a 48v 100ah pack would cost me $1720 +shipping.
of course, then i have to do all the work of setting it up with a BMS and such. Is there a good thread someone can point me to that will tell me all i need to know about this? This would be a huge investment so I want to take care of the cells.



The shipping part can easily reach $500, make sure you budget that.
Also, those cells are saggier than an obese grandmas chest (just so you're aware).
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:53 am

[/quote] The shipping part can easily reach $500, make sure you budget that.
Also, those cells are saggier than an obese grandmas chest (just so you're aware).[/quote]

Really? This a general rule with Thundersky cells? Or is it the style of cell, (i.e. prismatic, 18650)

liveforphysics,
Have you ever combined lithium with ultracells? I've heard this helps a lot with the problem but havent been able to find how exactly your supposed to make this work. (i.e. wiring diagrams) Do you have experience with the uc's?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:56 am

x88x wrote:I just this last night, but since you're using car tires on the back tires, you might need to check your state regulations on trikes. I know in MD there's a regulation that the combined rear tire width on a trike cannot exceed a certain size. I forget what it is, but I believe it's quite large... Anyways, just something to check. Don't want to finish it and then get turned down when you go to register for a simple thing that would have been easily fixed.


I don't think this will be a problem as I've seen several bikes with complete car rear halves welded on driving around and they were licensed. I'm not going to be anywhere near that wide. But thanks!
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby grindz145 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:58 am

liveforphysics wrote:Also, those cells are saggier than an obese grandmas chest (just so you're aware).

:lol: :lol: :lol: ahh my stomach, it hurts. I wouldn't push those cells past about 5C. Still not a horrible option. You realize how much energy you'll be wasting by adding 2 car wheels right... Not to mention removing all fun out of the motorcycle... 8)

Cool project regardless keep up the good work!
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby x88x » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:36 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:
x88x wrote:I just this last night, but since you're using car tires on the back tires, you might need to check your state regulations on trikes. I know in MD there's a regulation that the combined rear tire width on a trike cannot exceed a certain size. I forget what it is, but I believe it's quite large... Anyways, just something to check. Don't want to finish it and then get turned down when you go to register for a simple thing that would have been easily fixed.


I don't think this will be a problem as I've seen several bikes with complete car rear halves welded on driving around and they were licensed. I'm not going to be anywhere near that wide. But thanks!

Combined tire width, not vehicle width. But yeah, sounds like you might not have anything to worry about, especially since those tires aren't especially wide for car tires.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:52 am

Motor Madness

Ok, so I was stalled a bit by not bieng able to get my el-cheapo controllers working, but the new kellys have come in and so I was finally able to get my hall sensors mounted on my motors and give them a test run. I learned a lot through this part of the project and my aim has been to try and document what I did clearly to help others considering using these motors. "Update: I was stalled even further from posting this update due to personal and work issues and feeling basically bagged for energy."

So heres what i did. I decided to place my sensors between the slots for a cleaner look and compactness, and it really wasnt that hard, except seperating the rotor from the stator, those magnets are really strong, but i came up with a simple method to get them seperate.

Motor disassembly
Step 1. remove the orange face on the bottom of the motor (where the wires come out)
Step 2. Remove the circlip and washer that lock the two pieces together
Step 3. Re-install the orange face with only 2 bolts
Step 4. install the aluminum mounting X with only 2 bolts
Step 5. Find the nose cone for the front of the blade and stand it up on the table
Step 6. Line up the bottom of the motor shaft with the top of the cone and push down.

The cone will push most of the way through the orange bottom facing and get the magnets far enough away from the stators that you can pull on the two halves to finish seperating.

Initial Testing
For my first trial I soldered wire leads to the hall sensors, wrapped electrical tape around the center terminal and then wrapped all three terminals together and stuck them in the slots wrapping packing tape around to ensure the halls didnt come out into the magnets.

P.S. I used an old usb printer cable for my wire leads. In USB there are 4 wires Red, Black, white, Green. But don't we need 5? Yes, and there is a wire shielding that is wrapped around all of these wires and connected to the computer case to discharge any static that might try to get through the cable, so this became my 5th lead. Allowed for a very clean installation. When wiring my halls I used red and black for power supplies and white and green for two of my 3 leads. I then took another white wire and put stripes on it with a sharpie marker and attached that to the shielding wire.

Image

My hall placement is marked in the following photo by the wire terminals i hung in the stator slots.

Hall Placement
I was hoping the motors were built exactly the same each time but that proved wrong (more on this later) I don't know if it really makes a difference which slots you put them in as long as they are 120 degrees apart.

Image

Important notes for testing
1. Use a current limited supply (I used my kellys with the motor and battery currents pushed down to bottom and running off a small 2.7 ah pack of batteries)
2. Test your halls b4 installation (I had one bad hall sensor that stalled progress for 15 minutes

For testing you can run all the wires out the back and terminate them externally to make the power connections. I did some testing and I got the motors running using the hall placement spreadsheet (used to keep track of wiring combinations) listed elsewhere on the forum. Will find the link later unless someone else posts it first. I was surprised by how little current the motor drew at idle speed. For me just 0.46 amps :shock: I had seen others posting 1.5 -2 amps. Runs really smooth! (Video at bottom of post)

So after a successful test run it was time to do the permanent installation. I disassembled the motor again and removed the hall sensors and the black tape from the halls.

Image

Next I put hot glue on the center terminal to insulate it from the others and bent the terminals as seen below (i found bending the hall leads made it easier to get the hall close to the face of the stator slots

Image

Then I painted the wire lead with Plasti-dip (brush on electrical tape would also work)

Image

This seals the connections and locks all the leads together so its kept compact.

Next I put down a strip of electrical tape in the stator slots to aid in getting the halls out without damaging the winding should one of them ever fail.

Image

This is as good a time as any to mention another issue i found. See below! :wink:

Image

Obviously, at 100 bucks a pop quality controll goes down the tube. I secured the loose wires with Lepage "flexible plastic adhesive" (AWESOME Stuff) and continued with my work.

Finally we come to glueing the sensors in. It's important to remember that having the hall sensors turned slightly will actually advance or retard the timing slightly so you want to get them as close to straight as possible. I used an epoxy to put them in because i had it handy but it would have been a better idea to use high temp rtv gasket sealer (sold in auto parts stores) to make removing them easier. Problem there is keeping them still while it sets.

Image

After installing all three i twisted the wire leads to "neatify" them

Image

And then soldered the leads all together keeping the wires as short as possible and plasti-dipped all connections

Image

I then pulled the USB cable through the back end to tighten up the wires a bit and then secured the wires down with a bit more plasti-dip

Image

Alll thats left now is to run the cable out the back end. I found it could not be run with one of the power wires as it was too tight in there so i opted to run it out one of the neighbouring holes. Here's how i did it.

Image
Image
ImageImage

And thats it!

Now for some motor running goodness!! :mrgreen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxF5Zax380o

So, to save others time,
EDIT :D :D :D
for a kelly controller at least, the phase wires are (CONFIRMED)
A=Black
B=Red
C=Yellow

Hall wires for me were (WITH MY HALL WIRING scheme) (TO BE ADDED LATER)
B=green
G=red
Y=white

for one motor but for the other one it was different though still followed the same sequence (NEEDS TO BE CONFIRMED accidentaly deleted my notes)
B=white
G=green
Y=red
Last edited by inspiredvoltfreak on Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby rebelpilot » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:50 am

Nice project, but I have a minor concern.
Next I put hot glue on the center terminal to insulate it from the others

If there is trouble with the hall signal eventually, it may be caused by the glue softening and the leads shorting. It would appear that this is going to be a demanding application for these motors, and that they probably will get warm. The glue will melt at a temperature that wouldn't harm the wires or halls. The halls can withstand a 125C operating temperature and a 150C storage temperature. Hot melt glue can start flowing below 120C. A piece of wire insulation or heat shrink would be more durable for this application, or the plasti-dip without the hotglue.
The epoxy and plasti-dip you applied may keep everything in place and minimize the forces on the leads and help prevent them from moving together.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby AussieJester » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:41 pm

Nice write up buddy...i have one lil concern
also, it's been stated previous the Kelly controller isn't capable of the high electrical rpms
the 130kv Turnigy motor is capable of when run on 50v setup, and yours is the 180kv even higher rpms :-|
You mentioned you tested it on a small 2.8ah battery, what voltage though have you
tested on thus far? Best of luck anywayz :-)

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:56 pm

Ughh, KiM, :oops:
Your right, I did a little research on what you said and actually came back to your build log
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12810&start=540
near the end of the page. Thankfully on the next page the motor poles were sorted out to be 7 pole pair not 12! That gives me some hope. So, as is, I am limited to about 5700rpm before the controller cant do no more. But something else came up that caught my attention, switching to wye from delta.

Re: Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog
by EV4LIFE » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:39 am
And so it does say it, cool. so 70,000elec.rpm/12pole= 5833.33
lets say 66.6v, 5833.3/66.6= 87kv and under,
that's doable as, rewiring the HXT delta to wye/star gets the 130kv motor to about 75kv.
EV4LIFE


So here's some questions for people.

1. So I would imagine switching to Wye for my motor would give me somewhere in the 90-105kv range?? Does that seem to follow?

If so, that would put my max rpm at 48V 105kv to be 5040, which is in my rpm range for my current kellys. I am also emailing them to see what my options are from their end.

2. My understanding is switching it gives about half speed and near double torque. is that right?
3. Anyone suggest a guide on switching these motors from delta to wye? :|
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Jeremy Harris » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:10 pm

Bear in mind that switching from delta to wye significantly increases the winding resistance and so lowers the current that the motor will take before overheating.

The actual rewiring is usually fairly straightforward, just remove the sleeving from the three phase wires and separate out the strands of wire. You'll find that each bundle separates into two, the start of one winding and the end of the next. If you separate out and connect all the "ends" together then the "starts" become the phase wires and the motor will be wired in wye.

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:32 am

well,there's no way to color this pretty! :| I screwed up! I guess every project i've read had one or two of these with most people blowing ESC's wide open. I expected mistakes from the start and will have to roll with them.

I got an email back from kelly and they said the processor is soldered on and then epoxied so there's no way to swap it out. Unfortunately i would have to ship the controllers back and exchange them if they'll even let me, (EDIT: THEY WONT) As much as I hate to even think about it. If I had to go the route of selling my kellys and buying an infineon and modding it with the 4110's what model should I be looking for and what was it's price? I contacted ecrazyman on ebay with basically this question and never got a response so I bought the kelly's instead thinking a professionally made e-motorcycle controller would be high speed by default. :oops:

I think I'm gona go the road of wiring in wye, because it's the only no cost option at this point. What do you guys think about that? Good idea or am I wasting time? Is there an easy way to know the "ends" from the "starts" once i get the wires seperated? or does it even matter. Just make sure i have the ends of the wires identified with an ohm meter to know which ones go together to form a coil. Also, with what your saying, the phase leads will be half the diameter because they will have only one wire instead of two. Was my guess right about the torque? Can i expect close to double torque at half speed? And how much should I expect the max amps to change? Thanks for all the help by the way!
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:19 pm

I really hate the idea of going lower rpm higher amps. I just cant see that bieng a good thing. I want a high ratio to make it easier for the motors to start. I'm ready to try again with the controllers but I'm not buying anything till I get some feedback. I'm wondering if this ecrazyman controller http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300502501774&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en#ht_1237wt_1140 will work for my setup and if it will handle the rpms specifically, I know I would have to mod the traces and swap fets to get appropriate amperage, i'm up for that. Could this controller be run at 48 volts to start and then upped later if I decide to? Anyone have experience with this controller. Or would you suggest something else?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby AussieJester » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:56 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:Could this controller be run at 48 volts to start and then upped later if I decide to? Anyone have experience with this controller. Or would you suggest something else?


In a word yes. Theres an ever increasing number buying Infionions (myself included) for the sensored Turnigy setups, and yes you
will need better fets (either 4110/15's ? or 3077 fets i believe) and beefed up traces. The master Jeremy Harris has also
designed a controller specifically for these setups which will blow everything currently available, away. Unfortunately they aren't
in production yet, i believe J.H is still testing the unit, awesome dyno you made for the job too Jeremy. If your electronically
inclined all the information on how to build one yourself has generously been made available by Jeremy and can be found in
Jeremy's Simply BLDC controller thread

KiM
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