Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:36 am

Hey Guys,
I need some advice. I've been playing around with the configuration of my bike and I've hit a bit of a wall where I'm not sure how to proceed. My original plan was 4 group 24 12 volt batteries for 48 volt in a removable battery box between the back wheels so i could wheel the batteries inside to charge. I always had concerns about unsprung weight but I'm just now realizing that not only would it be unsprung but it will actually have to be some of the weight behind the rear wheel center so it will actually slightly counteract the suspension and be trying to lift me up. I really don't want to go that route. It would have been 2 batts wide with two more stacked vertically. See pic.
Image
I may still be forced to go this route so any input or suggestions would be appreciated. After spending some time with the bike having the rear frame mocked up (only one bolt holding it together on each side) I came to realize something See pic 2.
Image

I know i can do this configuration with group 24s and go to 72 volts but the batteries would have to be permanently mounted. I'm almost certain I could even fit group 27's in the frame which would boost me up by 20ah to a total of 72 volt 115ah. This is the route I really want to go. Was, and still am, considering LIPO but I need to have a return on investment from this thing and that would take 2 years if I bought LIPO as opposed to 7 months to pay it off with lead acid. (The batteries will actually fit inside the frame despite my quick drawing)

The only thing holding me back from this configuration is charging. I cant get my bike close to a power outlet at work or at home. No outlet, no charge, no run! I have asked my strata council to consider allowing me to get an outlet installed in my parking stall so I can charge at home without removing the batteries (will have to wait till the strata meeting to hear back) I found I can get close to one outlet at work but I would have to get permission to park my bike on a corner of the loading dock or see if there's some other place I can plug in.

I tried sitting on the bike and bouncing the suspension and rocking the bike side to side and it feels very stable and thats without the batteries installed so I think it's going to be a very nice stable ride when it's done. Getting excited! But i gotta be able to charge it somehow. If i cant go the route I want to I will have to look at doing two seperate battery boxes I think and finding some easy way to get a 141 lb battery box out of the centre frame. Really don't want to go that route.

I'm thinking if i go 72 volts my amps will be lower which means i'll suffer less from the peukert effect. Does this follow???
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:20 am

Just wanted to show a pic with everything the way I left it last night. Gives you some vague idea of the finished look of the bike.
Image

I'm stalled until after the strata meeting as far as modding the rear frame anymore so I will be working on the motor/gearbox related stuff. Also waiting on my 18 fets from lyen.
Last edited by inspiredvoltfreak on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Cybernezz » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:02 am

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:
I know i can do this configuration with group 24s and go to 72 volts but the batteries would have to be permanently mounted. I'm almost certain I could even fit group 27's in the frame which would boost me up by 20ah to a total of 72 volt 115ah. This is the route I really want to go. Was, and still am, considering LIPO but I need to have a return on investment from this thing and that would take 2 years if I bought LIPO as opposed to 7 months to pay it off with lead acid. (The batteries will actually fit inside the frame despite my quick drawing)

The only thing holding me back from this configuration is charging. I cant get my bike close to a power outlet at work or at home. No outlet, no charge, no run! I have asked my strata council to consider allowing me to get an outlet installed in my parking stall so I can charge at home without removing the batteries (will have to wait till the strata meeting to hear back) I found I can get close to one outlet at work but I would have to get permission to park my bike on a corner of the loading dock or see if there's some other place I can plug in.



Hey inspiredvoltfreak,


I've seen a couple of builds that have encompased a power-chord extention lead on board bikes; I would have thought that it might be easier to have a recall-chord built onto the bike?

Is it possible to make the battery pack/chest hot swapable / esp if it was lipo so that it can be removed easily to take indoor? - guess SLAs would be very heavy for that thpe of solution.

:?:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:10 am

Well, heres the situation. I live in an apartment building on the first floor. Even though I could run an extension cord out my door and get it to the bike parked on the street my strata council would not take to kindly to that as they are very image concious (so am I for that matter). The extension cord would run down the side of the building, through a raised garden, down the side of the garden and across the wheelchair ramp. :| . Thats why I need to get a power cord set up in my stall.

I'm still looking for a place to charge at work as well. I found one good option but again it crosses a foot path so I may not be able to use that one. Have to see what I can figure out.

As a small update, worked last night on wiring repairs to the bike side of the system. Got that all figured out except i need a new flasher relay. I bought a cheap one on ebay and when I got it the lights just stayed on and the relay buzzed constantly. I triple checked all my relays and did other testing getting very frustrated. Finally i decided th whack the relay against the frame and (blink, blink, blink) only it was too fast. I opened the relay and found a ton of resistors standing vertically off the board and with nothing securing them from moving. One of the resistor leads was leaning against another resistor lead making a connection that wasnt supposed to be there. :shock: :evil: I bent it out of the way so no leads are touching but this unit is unpredictable at best, blinking at whatever speed it feels like. Typical chinese crap :roll:

I may actually convert it into an astable multivibrator with a 555 timer to run the relay clicker and just do it myslef! At least I know that'd be bulletproof. This was the cheap clickers on ebay mine was $1 with free shipping. :roll: I'm an idiot some times :wink:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Cybernezz » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:30 am

Ah I see your issue ref the apartment voltfreak...

Its a pitty this type of tech isnt mainstream yet:

http://fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/blog ... recharging

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/news/wirel ... 43.article



I guess your only solution would be to either build it with removable batteries/battery unit so that it can be done in doors - or make sure that whichever technology you follow i.e. sla/lipo that you get enough charge whilst at work :)


Buying things off eBay is a right gamble isnt it :) I love buying things from China/America/Japan anywhere to be honest - hobbycity is a great example of that working really well - its just a pitty when a few ******* sell you crap, but your right with the price of them its no surprise sometimes.

My brother bought a new laptop charger a couple of months back from China.. took a while to come and when it got here it made the laptop smoke before finishing it off for good.
-1 laptop becuase of a cheap crappy charger from china...


I'd be inclined to have a metal trunk on the back of the trike, have some 30c lipo in there to allow abit of quicker charging - and part of the trunk would have a build in lipo charger for when your on the move - with a retractable chord.
At home, remove (make a easy on/off mechanism) and charge where-ever safest without having to remove the lipo from the sealed metal trunk;
On the road - extend the chord where poss and make the most of the free electric :)

You could even turn half the trunk into storage for helmet/bag anything I guess?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:38 pm

Yeah, Lipo would be great! but using the best cheap ones from Hobby City would cost me about $2500 and I'm just not ready to shell out that kind of change. Besides, I'm hoping the carbon lead acid battery finally becomes available here within a year or two. (search elecsol, theyre available Overseas) If not, when I pay off the initial build I may consider Lipo at that point. But depends how it's working with the lead Acids.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Cybernezz » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:11 pm

Hey voltfreak,


Finally had time to read all of your build, I see your issues now mate... :|

If you manage to get the gearing right on the gear boxes that you've ordered surely that could tick a couple of boxes?
Would have thought you could reduce the overall voltage you need thus reducing the weight of the SLAs?
Also if you still have the issue with the higher RPM and the controller you have, again that would be fixed wouldnt it?

I've just started reading up on other trike projects so if I see anything obvious I'll come back with it :)
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:29 pm

Yeah, just came upon a realization. Lead acids suffer from peukert effect (which i knew) This means the faster you discharge your batteries the less available amp hours in the battery (based on the C rating). To get say 20hp from a motor you can do it through high voltage or high amps or try to even the two out somewhere in the middle. 1 Horsepower is 746 watts so 20x746= 14920 watts. we can get that much watts by 48V x 310A or else we can get it by 72V x 207A. Do you see the trick? A lead acid battery has a C rating of around 1C My continuous draw at highway speed level ground will be 103.5A at 72V and I am getting 115AH batteries. I should then hopefully get close to my rated Amp hours out of the batteries by going this route. I think a lot of guys make a mistake by trying to cram tons of smaller batteries into their frames. Smaller batteries weigh a lot for the amp hours available and they cant put out the C! My only fear is whether this bike will be too heavy but I have access to used batteries with about 60% capacity still in them to try it out with before I go make the battery purchase. So, we'll see how goes.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby x88x » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:39 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:My continuous draw at highway speed level ground will be 103.5A at 72V and I am getting 115AH batteries.

The problem you're going to run into there is that if your highway cruising power draw is actually 103.5A (I would question that; from what I've seen, since cruising speeds tends to be past the current peak if geared properly, so you shouldn't need nearly that much power to maintain speed), then it's going to take a lot more current than that to accelerate to that cruising speed in any sort of a reasonable time.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Hillhater » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:35 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote: ....My continuous draw at highway speed level ground will be 103.5A at 72V and I am getting 115AH batteries. ....


IF those details are accurate,..you do realise how limited your range /run time will be ?? :?
..and i hope you never have to climb a hill anywhere ! :shock:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:34 pm

I don't know what to say guys. All i have is a spreadsheet I found online to go by. No real world testing as of yet. It would actually be really helpful if people could post for me to compare to as follows. The data is my theoretical Data for my bike which is still in progress. If I gear for top speed 80kph my amps draw goes down to 72.5A. This data is also with a 5 mph headwind and climbing a 1 degree hill. Just to help estimate "safer." If I get rid of head wind and hill i get 70.11 amps draw at cruise. Maybe this spreadsheet isn't accurate, I dont know! :roll: If I increase the incline to 5 degrees and eliminate wind I get 177A at cruise :!: That nearly cuts my range in half. This is not news to me :roll: I've been trying to work out numbers in my favor but it comes down to trying the real world item and seeing how it performs (or not) (with the used free batteries) Then I'll decide what the battle plan is. First thing would be to gear down for 80 top speed.

Weight of Bike (including Driver) : 664lbs
Available Horsepower (Max) : 20
Gear Ratio : 13.5:1
Top Speed : 100kph
Average Amps at Full Speed : 103.5A
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:52 pm

I'm doing some comparing to a bike build shown here http://www.electricmotion.org/ called emoto. This is where I got the original spreadsheet that I started working with. He has His spreadsheet with his working numbers up on the web for us to see so I'm going through and comparing to my sheet. Found one interesting thing : more on that later. First I'll post up a reply for his bike specs

Weight of Bike (including Driver) : 650lbs
Available Horsepower (Max) : 28.8
Gear Ratio : 6:1
Top Speed : 71kph
Average Amps at Full Speed : 48A
Lbs/HP : 22.57

Lbs/Hp added on this post, my bike is or (Was) 35lbs per HP. "At 48 Volts" :!: But I've upped to 72 Volts, Posts I've read say as volts goes up so does horsepower and torque. Is there a way to calculate this I wonder? Going to continue mining the spreadsheet for goodies.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Hillhater » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:22 am

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:I'm doing some comparing to a bike build shown here http://www.electricmotion.org/ called emoto. This is where I got the original spreadsheet that I started working with. He has His spreadsheet with his working numbers up on the web for us to see so I'm going through and comparing to my sheet....


I notice that he seems to think that 6x 29 Ahr batteries in series will give him 174 Ahrs total ?
He will be disappointed !

There must be something else missing here,.... he calculates only 48A at 71kph, but on the same voltage you figure 72A @ 80 kph ??
Also, i find the weight horrifying .. 650lbs, =500lbs without rider ! :shock:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:39 am

Just playing with his spreadsheet a bit sheds some doubt on the validity of his data. Just upping the degrees of hill from 0 to 5 degrees changes his range at cruise from 27miles to 10 miles. I think there may be Gravity data entered wrong here.

As to my last question, a way to calculate horsepower? Is it as simple as using the old watts formula for horsepower as I did a few posts back. If so That puts my motors at the same as his or 28.8HP. That would be Awesome. I know other people have overvolted these motors to 72 and have had little to no heat issues so i think I'm doing alright. If I had to It'd be simple enough to duct some air over the motors to keep them cool. (was planning on doing this anywayz). By the way, for reference, my metro is 25.43lbs/hp and if the formula above works I would have 23.13lbs/hp

Just for fun an 18 degree hill pulls 27.82 hp and drops range to 3.95 Miles :P That can't be right!

I'm not too worried about it now.

Just saw your post!
:P :wink: :P :P :P
OH man, thats hillarious, I didn't really pay attention to that figure! On mine I will supposedly have 690ah :roll: That would give me a range of around 650 miles :!: Yeah right! :wink:

If i gear mine down to same speed I'm still at 65 Amps ??? Oh, Hill degree is the culprit his was 0 mine was 1. Change mine to 0 and get 48Amps draw. It's all relative till I get behind the tank! Still encouraging though. :lol: But imagine this thing on LIPO :twisted:
Last edited by inspiredvoltfreak on Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:44 am

Yeah, seems to me if you gotta go lead acid go floodies! AGM gives lower C rate, higher weight, lower ah! Whats the point??? So you can mount it sidewayz!! Giving up a lot. He gets 27ah out of 210lbs. I get 115ah out of 284lbs. Who wins :P
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby x88x » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:12 am

Hillhater wrote:Also, i find the weight horrifying .. 650lbs, =500lbs without rider ! :shock:

Yeah, that caught me by surprise too...that's a big, heavy bike! Though, 210lb of that is all that lead...

voltfreak, if you want to go lead, check out this site before buying flooded (found it here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46):
http://www.gruberpower.com/gruberpower/ ... batteries/

They have some 135Ah (ie, probably ~80-90Ah usable for an EV, if you go easy on them..remember; lead sags a lot) SLA's for $252. Well, $252 + shipping...I shudder to think what the shipping on a pack of those batteries would be, at 87lb each!
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Hillhater » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:47 am

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:...Just for fun an 18 degree hill pulls 27.82 hp and drops range to 3.95 Miles :P That can't be right!
...:


Oh, i dont know !...an 18deg hill is one mutha to haul 650lbs up . !
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:14 am

I took another look at my spreadsheet last night and realized the amp hours cell we were talking about is part of his calculations for watt hours available in the battery pack :!: :!: :shock: That got me scared but i was too tired to figure it out last night. When I got up this morning I searched ES and found this page http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21887&p=319555&hilit=calculate+watt+hours+of+battery+pack#p319555 where amberwolf says watt hours is calculated as voltage of pack x amp hours of pack. apparently current multiplies in series. So i plugged the numbers into my spreadsheet and held my breath and crossed my fingers and crossed my toes and . . . :twisted: 8280 watt hours available! . . . But wait, wasnt that what was available b4??? So i put it back and yes it was! So I tried it on his spreadsheet and it gives the same results. It doesnt appear to matter. (voltage of pack x amp hours of pack) or (voltage of cell x (ah of baterry x number of batteries)) Both give the same result! Oh well, Happy riding! :mrgreen:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby x88x » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:42 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:apparently current multiplies in series

No. Current (A) and current capacity (Ah) builds in parallel, voltage (V) builds in series. However, the way he did it (V*Ah_per_bat*Num_bat) is more versatile because it doesn't roll the battery arrangement into the calculation (like, say, pack_Ah*pack_V would). No matter how you arrange them, the power capacity (Wh) of a pack is not going to change. The voltage, current availability, and current capacity will change, but not the power capacity.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:01 am

x88x wrote:
Hillhater wrote:Also, i find the weight horrifying .. 650lbs, =500lbs without rider ! :shock:

Yeah, that caught me by surprise too...that's a big, heavy bike! Though, 210lb of that is all that lead...

voltfreak, if you want to go lead, check out this site before buying flooded (found it here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46):
http://www.gruberpower.com/gruberpower/ ... batteries/

They have some 135Ah (ie, probably ~80-90Ah usable for an EV, if you go easy on them..remember; lead sags a lot) SLA's for $252. Well, $252 + shipping...I shudder to think what the shipping on a pack of those batteries would be, at 87lb each!


I checked out the batteries you suggested. I am set on going floodies and not paying $252 per battery+ shipping. I could get AGM'S from my works battery supplier delivered to my door for less than that. Thanks for the suggestion anyways!
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:22 am

I just realized I've been saying i bought 12 fet infineons from Lyen when in fact I bought 18 fet infineons. Good thing I can keep track of my stuff eh! :roll: Going back now to correct my posts. Yes I'm a bit of a perfectionist.

The basically finished rear frame is complete now, other than mounting motors/gearboxes and I brought them home to test it out for stability etc. only to discover I left my wheel nuts at work! :roll:

You know I do plan on completing this project some day.

I'm gonna go out tomorrow and buy two wheel nuts, one for each side so I can at least admire the thing a little bit.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:38 pm

Hey Guys,
I just realized the only thing holding me up from doing a test drive is to get the motors mounted and mock up some temporary batteries, the roblem is, I cant mount my motors because i'm still up in the air on a pair of gearboxes. I ordered some cheap ones in from china because for the price and ease of mounting to my motors I had to take the chance, but they proved unsuitable. (Though i'm definately going to use it on my next project, a gokart for my kids) :twisted: So, I'm back at square 1. I don't have a lot of machining equipment (basic drill press, belt sander) so machining something complex is out. :roll: I have to go 2 stage reduction with the final stage bieng a 2 to 1 due to space limitations where it mounts to the wheel. The middle drive will need to be in the range 6 to 7 to 1 and be able to handle the 12,960 rpm my motor will be spinning at. I was planning on doing the final drive with a chain.

I am wondering if someone can give me a lead on a good cheap (gearbox, belt drive, chain drive) that might fit the bill. I am also considering building my own drive unit as I can do it, but I don't know about the gears, belts, pulleys etc.

I am considering using V belt pulleys as they are readily available near my home. But i have not found a single thread where these have been used which makes me think there must be a reason. Can someone direct me on this. I don't want to make any more stupid or unnecessary purchases.
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inspiredvoltfreak
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:50 pm

http://motorbicycling.com/f23/4g-t-belt-drive-replacement-trans-17328.html I've seen this unit and it looks promising to me. Though I would have to confirm I can get myself to more than 2:1 on the final drive. Any other suggestions?
Langley, BC
My Build Log "http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=24136"
"Do not let the man who says it can't be done stand in the way of the man doing it!"
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inspiredvoltfreak
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:30 pm

http://www.partsforscooters.com/CVT-Transmission Here's another one, question is, would a trannie built for a 49cc engine stand up to 10-12 peak horsepower? I think not.
Langley, BC
My Build Log "http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=24136"
"Do not let the man who says it can't be done stand in the way of the man doing it!"
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inspiredvoltfreak
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby gwhy! » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:37 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:http://www.partsforscooters.com/CVT-Transmission Here's another one, question is, would a trannie built for a 49cc engine stand up to 10-12 peak horsepower? I think not.

A CVT Will fit the bill perfectly ( as your project is so heavy ) it will make so much easier on the controllers. Im not sure about that particular cvt if it would stand up, but one off of a 50cc auto road scooter will, so at a guess I would say yes. The other question is how configurable is that cvt in the link ?. At least if you were to use a auto scoot cvt you can tune them to give you the performance that you want ( all the tune up parts are available ) also if you did use the complete cvt out of a scoot it also has a gear reduction on the output as well. Just a thought..
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