Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby x88x » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:12 am

Hillhater wrote:Also, i find the weight horrifying .. 650lbs, =500lbs without rider ! :shock:

Yeah, that caught me by surprise too...that's a big, heavy bike! Though, 210lb of that is all that lead...

voltfreak, if you want to go lead, check out this site before buying flooded (found it here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46):
http://www.gruberpower.com/gruberpower/ ... batteries/

They have some 135Ah (ie, probably ~80-90Ah usable for an EV, if you go easy on them..remember; lead sags a lot) SLA's for $252. Well, $252 + shipping...I shudder to think what the shipping on a pack of those batteries would be, at 87lb each!
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Hillhater » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:47 am

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:...Just for fun an 18 degree hill pulls 27.82 hp and drops range to 3.95 Miles :P That can't be right!
...:


Oh, i dont know !...an 18deg hill is one mutha to haul 650lbs up . !
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:14 am

I took another look at my spreadsheet last night and realized the amp hours cell we were talking about is part of his calculations for watt hours available in the battery pack :!: :!: :shock: That got me scared but i was too tired to figure it out last night. When I got up this morning I searched ES and found this page http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21887&p=319555&hilit=calculate+watt+hours+of+battery+pack#p319555 where amberwolf says watt hours is calculated as voltage of pack x amp hours of pack. apparently current multiplies in series. So i plugged the numbers into my spreadsheet and held my breath and crossed my fingers and crossed my toes and . . . :twisted: 8280 watt hours available! . . . But wait, wasnt that what was available b4??? So i put it back and yes it was! So I tried it on his spreadsheet and it gives the same results. It doesnt appear to matter. (voltage of pack x amp hours of pack) or (voltage of cell x (ah of baterry x number of batteries)) Both give the same result! Oh well, Happy riding! :mrgreen:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby x88x » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:42 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:apparently current multiplies in series

No. Current (A) and current capacity (Ah) builds in parallel, voltage (V) builds in series. However, the way he did it (V*Ah_per_bat*Num_bat) is more versatile because it doesn't roll the battery arrangement into the calculation (like, say, pack_Ah*pack_V would). No matter how you arrange them, the power capacity (Wh) of a pack is not going to change. The voltage, current availability, and current capacity will change, but not the power capacity.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:01 am

x88x wrote:
Hillhater wrote:Also, i find the weight horrifying .. 650lbs, =500lbs without rider ! :shock:

Yeah, that caught me by surprise too...that's a big, heavy bike! Though, 210lb of that is all that lead...

voltfreak, if you want to go lead, check out this site before buying flooded (found it here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46):
http://www.gruberpower.com/gruberpower/ ... batteries/

They have some 135Ah (ie, probably ~80-90Ah usable for an EV, if you go easy on them..remember; lead sags a lot) SLA's for $252. Well, $252 + shipping...I shudder to think what the shipping on a pack of those batteries would be, at 87lb each!


I checked out the batteries you suggested. I am set on going floodies and not paying $252 per battery+ shipping. I could get AGM'S from my works battery supplier delivered to my door for less than that. Thanks for the suggestion anyways!
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:22 am

I just realized I've been saying i bought 12 fet infineons from Lyen when in fact I bought 18 fet infineons. Good thing I can keep track of my stuff eh! :roll: Going back now to correct my posts. Yes I'm a bit of a perfectionist.

The basically finished rear frame is complete now, other than mounting motors/gearboxes and I brought them home to test it out for stability etc. only to discover I left my wheel nuts at work! :roll:

You know I do plan on completing this project some day.

I'm gonna go out tomorrow and buy two wheel nuts, one for each side so I can at least admire the thing a little bit.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:38 pm

Hey Guys,
I just realized the only thing holding me up from doing a test drive is to get the motors mounted and mock up some temporary batteries, the roblem is, I cant mount my motors because i'm still up in the air on a pair of gearboxes. I ordered some cheap ones in from china because for the price and ease of mounting to my motors I had to take the chance, but they proved unsuitable. (Though i'm definately going to use it on my next project, a gokart for my kids) :twisted: So, I'm back at square 1. I don't have a lot of machining equipment (basic drill press, belt sander) so machining something complex is out. :roll: I have to go 2 stage reduction with the final stage bieng a 2 to 1 due to space limitations where it mounts to the wheel. The middle drive will need to be in the range 6 to 7 to 1 and be able to handle the 12,960 rpm my motor will be spinning at. I was planning on doing the final drive with a chain.

I am wondering if someone can give me a lead on a good cheap (gearbox, belt drive, chain drive) that might fit the bill. I am also considering building my own drive unit as I can do it, but I don't know about the gears, belts, pulleys etc.

I am considering using V belt pulleys as they are readily available near my home. But i have not found a single thread where these have been used which makes me think there must be a reason. Can someone direct me on this. I don't want to make any more stupid or unnecessary purchases.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:50 pm

http://motorbicycling.com/f23/4g-t-belt-drive-replacement-trans-17328.html I've seen this unit and it looks promising to me. Though I would have to confirm I can get myself to more than 2:1 on the final drive. Any other suggestions?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:30 pm

http://www.partsforscooters.com/CVT-Transmission Here's another one, question is, would a trannie built for a 49cc engine stand up to 10-12 peak horsepower? I think not.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby gwhy! » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:37 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:http://www.partsforscooters.com/CVT-Transmission Here's another one, question is, would a trannie built for a 49cc engine stand up to 10-12 peak horsepower? I think not.

A CVT Will fit the bill perfectly ( as your project is so heavy ) it will make so much easier on the controllers. Im not sure about that particular cvt if it would stand up, but one off of a 50cc auto road scooter will, so at a guess I would say yes. The other question is how configurable is that cvt in the link ?. At least if you were to use a auto scoot cvt you can tune them to give you the performance that you want ( all the tune up parts are available ) also if you did use the complete cvt out of a scoot it also has a gear reduction on the output as well. Just a thought..
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:48 am

How can I know it will work? Unless i'm mistaken a 50cc scooter engine is typically under 5 horsepower. (My TOMOS was under 2.5HP) I will likely be pulling over 10, Quality is also a concern. Is the trannies listed for scooters that sell for $3500 or are they for pocket bikes that sell for $350. I want reliability over al and am willing to sacrifice speed to get it (to a point) I think I will go with a home built chain drive reduction with parts readily available. I don't want to deal with snapped belts, stuck weights, misaligned or poor quality bearings. Thanks for the input.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby gwhy! » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:30 am

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:How can I know it will work? Unless i'm mistaken a 50cc scooter engine is typically under 5 horsepower. (My TOMOS was under 2.5HP) I will likely be pulling over 10, Quality is also a concern. Is the trannies listed for scooters that sell for $3500 or are they for pocket bikes that sell for $350. I want reliability over al and am willing to sacrifice speed to get it (to a point) I think I will go with a home built chain drive reduction with parts readily available. I don't want to deal with snapped belts, stuck weights, misaligned or poor quality bearings. Thanks for the input.


Thats why I suggested a 50cc or 125cc scooter tranny , stock they are good upto around 15-20hp and can be got for around 50uk pounds from bike breakers. I have never snapped a belt but normally after around 20k miles rollers and ramps and maybe clutch will have to be serviced ( but this is minimal cost and very easy to do ), I currently have a 39hp scooter that has around 80k miles on the clock and is still going strong and in its life time it has had 1 new clutch and 2 sets of rollers and 4 new belts and is due for a new one.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:07 pm

Just wanted to give an update. I have decided to go with Chain and Gears for both primary and secondary reductions. I'm glad to say that I am actually able to go to more than a 2 to 1 reduction on the final drive due to figuring out a solution to the space issue. At present it is still a 2 to 1 redux on the secondary and I have the gears mounted in place.

I took my wheel components from a front wheel drive Honda Civic w/ 12" 4 bolt rims. I did this specifically from a FWD so I could do THIS to the cv joint!

Image

CV Joint Head prepped. Sorry, forgot to take pics in between but I took a piece of 1" wide by 1/8" thick steel flat stock and spot welded it to the CV hub and then proceeded to clamp in a vise and hammer the metal all the way around until it was forming a tube. I then welded the ends together and cut the weld on the CV hub so the tube was free of the hub. I now had a perfectly fitting tube. I laid the tube on top of my final gear, measured it carefully and welded.

Image

And finally here is a pic of the gear mounted to hub.

Image

And the two drive assemblies

Image

I am waiting on some primary gears ordered online to come in before I can build the reductions.

Getting a little impatient every time i Gas Up the Metro!! :evil:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby x88x » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:41 pm

Interesting. So will this be a tilting trike? Or were the CV joints important for some other reason..
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:07 pm

Those are what's left of the CV joint. I removed the shaft and CV bearings and installed the sprocket in its place. No, not a tilting trike. I didn't feel up to building in all that complexity.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:10 am

Ok, A little update, I Built my first primary reduction!!! Yeah!!! Though it's not yet complete. I need to pick up some idler sprockets to keep the chain tensioned. Here is a pic of my battery setup,
Image
which shows I'm using crappy little jumper wires to wire up my batteries. They're only good for about 10 amps (blown a few) so during testing I know i'm below that amperage and yet my torque is just amazing. The reduction I built is only 7 to 1 but reduces 2 to 1 on the secondary stage so total 14 to 1. Just at 7 to 1 with the throttle at about 10% the final gear wants to rip my fingers off. I'm not worried about driving on level ground anymore. This thing will climb at least moderate hills. Here's a video of the gear reduction in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_6TaMwcV3E
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sun May 01, 2011 1:42 am

BIG Update! Been getting quite frustrated playing the waiting game but I am glad to say I completed the Gear boxes and got them installed on the rear frame over the last 3 weeks. Brought the rear frame home just this last Friday and installed it and things are looking up. I tied all the batteries and the controllers on for a test drive (all temporary locations). Results posted below. Short but sweet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR_2uzS3sbQ

I tested it outside in my back lane and It's not quite running right. I can only get up to about 35 kph and it takes about 10 seconds. The good news is the motors are running cold and my current draw for both motors at 35 is only about 25 amps so It's not that I'm overworking the motors. I suspect it's an issue with the controller programming but I haven't had a chance to really check it out. I'll do more programming tomorrow. It feels good to have it running as well as it is so far. I'll take more pics and post them tomorrow. The original gearbox posted a few posts back was not used, I remade them.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Mon May 02, 2011 9:59 am

Well, after some initial testing I briefly disconnected a controller from power and upon reconnection had a huge spark on the terminals.
The following describes in order what happened next.
1. The controller stopped working
2. I did some testing trying to figure it out, (disconnecting, reconnecting, check for power etc)
3. Realized I heard a click every time I connected the ignition wire?? :?
4. Realized working controller has no such click???? :? :?
5. Realized the controller was solid state and had nothing inside that could click????????? :? :? :?
6. Thought (spark jumping inside case is the click???)
7. Took controller out of casing to inspect
8. Connected power
9. BANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:
10. Dropped control board
11. Flames shooting across surface of control board! :shock: :shock: :shock:
12. Disconnected power

:twisted: FLAMES!!!!!!!!!

OOPS! :mrgreen:

I guess the spark was grounding itself through the case :lol: 8)

Image
Image


It's worth noting that there is another possible cause to this problem. I had decided to experiment with the anti theft motor lock setting on the controller which had resulted in some smoke just previously to disconnecting and reconnecting power, this was done to re-program the controller. Considering one of the 4110 fets is blown to bits I'm wondering if the problem was actually the fet being toast before I ever reconnected and got that spark. When I had the motor lock set high I had brief heating of wires and smoke.

Any suggestions on what components I should replace on the controller? Besides the obvious failures of one fet and a capacitor?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby AussieJester » Mon May 02, 2011 7:24 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:Any suggestions on what components I should replace on the controller? Besides the obvious failures of one fet and a capacitor?


Bad luck with the controller, the video of the trike was cool good to see it running
albeit briefly. I am thinking of going for a Kelly controller i don't think Infineons
are up to the job of running the big Turnigys TBH seen many popped now from 6-24 fet
And running 36 fet Infineon on a bicycles looks absolutely ridiculous so i dont see that as an option
and for the price your better off wit a Kelly i think?.
Kelly now offer a Ultra High Speed Firmware 100k ERPM upgrade on their controller
..they are very expensive in comparison to the Infinons.

Best of luck...

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Tue May 03, 2011 9:33 am

I would buy another infineon in a second if it wasn't for the fact that it didn't work right from the start. I'm really leaning toward that the current sensing circuit was not set up properly. I used heavy 1 guage cable between all my batteries and then in the final stage going to the controllers I soldered on 4 smaller 8 gauge wires, twisted them and ran two of the four to each controler. There is absolutely now way the wire is cutting my current. Pics below.

Image
Image
Image


I then went into the software and set phase current to 160 and rated current to 57. Everything theoretically opened wide up yet both motors with both controllers wouldn't pull more than 30 amps if I was WOT, with my setup I should've been able to pull 100 continuous. Right from stall to 35kph I never got over 30amps, after 10 min driving the motors were still cold as if I hadn't run them. I can' help thinking my controllers are cutting current when they shouldn't be.

I want to get my one motor and controller working properly before I invest in another controller the same as I have. Judging by how the dual motor setup performed I should be able to get my bike running on just 1 motor controller and have the same or better power as I did with two not working properly.

So you know the motors are setup in a dual stage 7:1 and then 2:1 ratio so 14:1 total. The motor at WOT unloaded is about 14,000 rpm at 72 V. Stalling the motor on level ground was not a problem, I even climbed the hill out of the parkade starting from stall on the hill. Again, motors never even got warm.

Any thoughts?

Here's pic of 1 gear reduction drive.

Image
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby AussieJester » Tue May 03, 2011 10:37 am

Not as far as the infineons go no hopeful someone else will? i found the one i used on my Turnigy to
be nothing but a gutless piece of crap phase current set on 150 battery 60amp Couldnt pull the skin off
a bowl of custard and thats on a 35kilo e-bicyle running 50v 25c LiPo! Hope you figure it out buddy ;-)

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu May 05, 2011 8:27 pm

Did some testing tonight with my one good controller. I tried switching the control board parameter to 15 fet and 12 fet so the shunt value changes. Sure enough as was stated by others it increases the current draw and power coming out of the motor. Set at 15 fet it performed a little better but set to 12 fet put it in overload as soon as you open the throttle. But it pulled pretty good. At least the motors got slightly warm but the controller was getting hot after only 30 second test bursts. I'm at a loss, there's no controller for these motors. Contemplating switching to brushed motors, I can Build a freakin monster controller for one of those myself, that's easy! This brushless stuff is no mans land. You have to have a good understanding of electronics to diagnose this stuff.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby AussieJester » Thu May 05, 2011 9:15 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote: I'm at a loss, there's no controller for these motors. Contemplating switching to brushed motors, I can Build a freakin monster controller for one of those myself, that's easy! This brushless stuff is no mans land. You have to have a good understanding of electronics to diagnose this stuff.


Well there is controllers for these they are just hell expensive Google Sevcon... You will see a few of the lads using these soon i know of 3 people
who have them on order. You definitely should have opted for a Perm or an Agni if the budget allows IMHO thats alot of weight for those motors, very underpowered, and IIRC we did tell you this from the geko IIRC. :lol:

From page one

liveforphysics wrote:Motor bad choice.

That as trike won't turn.


AussieJester wrote:^^ Agreed...far too heavy for the motors you have picked, be lucky to ride out of sight on a dark night without burning the motors/controller up or tipping over...Would be doing ALOT more research before purchasing anything.

KiM


Best of luck with the brushed motors you will have ALOT more joy i think...keep at it
the trike itself has come together nicely, well cept for lack of diff and all loL

KiM
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby jonescg » Fri May 06, 2011 7:57 am

Yeah, sadly the brushless motors don't have the oomph you would want from a motor. As far as I can tell the problem lies in the controllers. As much as changing brushes is a pest, they are a better motor for this application.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Bluefang » Fri May 06, 2011 9:45 am

Um, its very easy to fix the problem your having with the controller, There was a recent thread somewhere about a better programmer for the inferon controllers that increased the amp output, i have not been able to find it or i would have posted a link to it :(. Otherwise it kinda sounds like the controller isnt reading your shunts properly, so just add a big blob of solder to the shunts, should be like 3 or 4 of them. Then try the controller again with lower settings in the current boxes and increase till your happy. If you still dont get to the power you want or what you think the controller can handle you can add more solder to the shunts, or replace the shunts with bigger ones or add more.

With 72V you 18fet should be able to pump quite alot of power into the turnigy, probably more then it can handle so if its not getting hot then the controller isnt working hard enough :)
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