Suzuki RF400E, now with Enertrac MHM602

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gwhy!
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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless [with videos]

Post by gwhy! » Jun 18, 2013 7:22 pm

That seems to be pulling a lot of current to drive the gearbox! what do your motor pull when not connect to it ?

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless [with videos]

Post by marcexec » Jun 19, 2013 2:43 pm

Tested that for you:
CA says Amax 8.25A without belt, 10.25A with, driving the whole assembly (minus front sprocket and what comes after)
The motor has the skirt bearing and the can is not 100% true either.

I might get some optimization with Burtie's TA still.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless [with videos]

Post by AussieJester » Jun 19, 2013 9:36 pm

marcexec wrote:Tested that for you:
CA says Amax 8.25A without belt, 10.25A with, driving the whole assembly (minus front sprocket and what comes after)
The motor has the skirt bearing and the can is not 100% true either.

I might get some optimization with Burtie's TA still.

Amps are a little too high IMO? sure you have hall sensors in correct placement?
My no load on exact same motor was alot lower 2-3amps lower in fact
and only 7amp running through a dual stage reduction setup :-)

**Subscribed** though very interested to see how far you get with this motor
i had mine burnt up with it powering a much lighter bicyle, definitely get
peaks of 10kw though no probs, wont handle that for very long however
these lil motors tend o heatup quick when pushing big amps through them
that 12fet will not be upto the task either popped mine many times
18fet minimum i think... should look around for a Turnigy CA120
would be better suited for this project IMO...anywayz best of luck
following with much interest...

KiM

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless [with videos]

Post by marcexec » Aug 23, 2013 4:02 pm

Found time for putting the gearbox together. Initial dry fit took nearly 4 hours before I figured it out.
The trick is to assemble the box upside down:
wrong: Image right way:Image
Note the fitted blanking plates complicating things. The difficulty of the whole process is to have a) the 4 bearings of output and middle shaft aligned (grooves & rods) & b) the shifting forks in the proper place.
So one puts all the loose parts (including those short rods/pipes for initial alignment, e.g. middle right edge of 2nd photo above) in the top half. Then the bottom half can be put on with the forks held in place with your fingers. I tried wire, which works, but cannot be removed afterwards as the parts (thankfully) fall snugly in place. :roll:
step b1:Image step b2:Image

After figuring that out it was just rinse (with cleaning spirits on the to-be-sealed-surfaces) and repeat.
Lessons learned:
- have enough space and lighting
- the Delta Instant Gasket stuff I have cures in about 15 minutes - hurry :pancake:
- the bolts should be clean, lubricated and lined up as you need to tighten during the curing time

Next day I put the side/clutch cover on and initially filled up with some 200ml leftover Castrol MTX 75W140 gearbox oil (was for a differential) to test for leaks. Had a few drops the next morning. Source: the original side cover gasket. Turned out it wasn't tightened enough. :oops: Filled further with 10W40 motorbike oil (as I still have the clutch) & added the motor. Result:
ImageImageImageImageImage
:mrgreen: Estimated hours put into the above assembly sans motor: 140-150h :shock: Do not try this at home :)

I started putting the bike back together. Rear wheel is back in. Currently working on the rear brake and refreshing a few of the 7ah LA gels.
48V / 28Ah give 1.3kWh at the .05C rating for a first ride. Still need to mount them, though.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless [with videos]

Post by gwhy! » Aug 24, 2013 4:52 am

looking ok,, see how you go with your current setup but it looks like you may have enough room to fit a second motor if you need more power.
Also you may want to make the motor mounting plate more ridged as I think it is going to flex under load which will cause belt problems.

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless [with videos]

Post by gogo » Sep 10, 2013 11:54 am

marcexec wrote:In retrospect, I would advise using a transmission that's sealed more easily like shaft drive or 2-stroke.
I will have more updates soon.
And also be aware that single cylinder motors are often side-split (hassle), while multi-cylinder are horizontally split. The old Yamaha 2 stroke electric start models have a HUGE space at the end of the crankshaft where the brushed generator/starter and ignition plate are housed. I think the armature weighs about 5 lbs. :idea:
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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless [with videos]

Post by marcexec » Oct 21, 2013 2:50 am

I have reached a major milestone - she moves! (no driving as there is no seat or brakes yet :))
The motor pulled huge torque as I think the gearbox was stuck in 6th after reassembly and the can started to slip on the shaft.
Hardened steel that it is, it seemed too slippery, so obviously I will have to put flat spots on it...

some pics:
ImageImage
(added controller, some SLAs and chain afterwards)
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Nov 04, 2013 4:42 pm

Currently optimizing the motor with the TA:
50V, 25A/74A set in controller
WOT amps as measured with the CA:

Code: Select all

                live      peak    max RPM
bypass                     9.95   
+15/0/0          ~8        9.60    5966
+10/0/0          ~8        9.00    5891
+10/-15/5000     ~8.4     10.09    6107
+10/-20/5000     ~8.5      9.89    6233
+10/-25/5000     ~9        9.80    6454
+10/-30/5000    ~13       13.03    7086
+5/0/0                     9.48    5882
0/0/0                      9.5     5819
-5/0/0                     9.78    5927
-10/0/0                   11.33    6131
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by spinningmagnets » Nov 06, 2013 4:16 pm

After trying out the 80-100, if you are happy with it...fine. if not, consider the next step up, which I would suggest is the 404 motor from LightningRods, which is a brushless inrunner that is 4.5 inches in diameter, and 4.04 inches long. It is known to run well on 48V-100V with a 67-Kv and it sheds heat well (it has an optional shaft-mounted fan).

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Nov 12, 2013 6:15 pm

Looks interesting, assuming you mean https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 25#p819060

So 80-100: 2-3kW permanent, 10kW peak vs B4 (Bottom Bracket Big Block) 4kW permanent @ 100V
weights: 1.5kg vs 5kg(could possibly be reduced)

small update: gear selector and clutch back in, TA dialed in at +10/-25/7000 for reliably spinning up at 72 volts.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Dec 14, 2013 5:24 pm

So, drove it for the first few kilometers through the neigbourhood. Motor gets warm at the skirt bearing - most likely because because it's revving quite high in 1st gear, will remove that.
Also added the CA in the meantime, after building a custom bracket:
Image
Test setting: 72V 14Ah LA test pack, controller at 35 A(batt), TA not fitted atm (no case) + sticky front brakes :roll:

quite zippy when accelerating fresh off the charger, need to add more batteries obviously - 2.5C is too much for the small, (discarded) SLAs
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by gwhy! » Dec 15, 2013 8:06 am

marcexec wrote:So, drove it for the first few kilometers through the neigbourhood. Motor gets warm at the skirt bearing - most likely because because it's revving quite high in 1st gear, will remove that.
Also added the CA in the meantime, after building a custom bracket:
Image
Test setting: 72V 14Ah LA test pack, controller at 35 A(batt), TA not fitted atm (no case) + sticky front brakes :roll:

quite zippy when accelerating fresh off the charger, need to add more batteries obviously - 2.5C is too much for the small, (discarded) SLAs
Great to hear you have this moving now, Skirt bearings are a pain they also restrict air flow through the motor as well as getting hot.. If you remove the skirt bearing then you can also cut off the 8mm of outrunner can that is not needed, it all helps keeping this cool.

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Mar 21, 2014 3:13 pm

Well, project break is over (2nd child, house move and rebuilding workspace are done now :).
Spent one night to rebuild front brakes, smooth as silk now, but nothing to do with EV. Rear brakes done before the move already, found https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbP0Iqky7eU very good for that. Hex keys come in handy due to their angle and varying thicknesses.
[rant]Note to someone considering a build: get a proper donor bike! Engine damage is fine, missing exhaust good - sticky brakes, worn bearings and missing 12V electrical parts will take the fun out of your project and are usually not worth the few quid saved. If it runs nice, sell off the engine etc. - it's recycling, too![/rant]

Today, I got around to shorten the can on the Turnigy (eliminating the skirt bearing at the same time, thx to all tips above). Had to take out the angle grinder like another member here, can't find the link, files and saw blade wouldn't work on "self lathing". :pancake:

Bought new mirrors: http://www.ebay.com/itm/350912061012, will stick them on tonight.

Kind of settled on Headways. My reasons: affordable, flexible (to place around my gearbox), safe and I have experience with them.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=867627 :)
Bought Zephyr board (big thanks to Zenid - http://www.zenid.com/shop.htm) which I find to be rather long. I am considering a 16+8 setup like in a 24 port swich case now - we'll see.
For now I'm still playing with the lead acids as I know the Headway pack and BMS will take time. I hope to get a range of a few kms to start running errands as the bike is taxed now (still ICE, need to bring her to a Suzuki main dealer to do the documentation for the change of "engine").

Good news is that the new commute is less than 10 kms (~6mi). :lol:
Will probably just add her to the insurance when renewal is due in May.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Mar 24, 2014 4:00 pm

Made some progress today:
- lighting converted to LEDs bar headlight
- mirror indicator integrated
- added 3rd sting of 6x SLA, now 72V, 21Ah
- cut the tank to give clearance to the pack/contactor - will have to start planning for the hinge I want there :) (http://www.ikea.com/ie/en/catalog/products/00204648/)

some pics for you:
ImageImageImageImageImage
Last edited by marcexec on Apr 13, 2014 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Apr 05, 2014 5:03 pm

Some more progress:
- added another string of 6 SLAs for a total of 72V / 28AH in a lower battery box
- did a quick beta test and took her out for a ride: the SLAs sag like hell, but I can get to ~50 km/h and the CA sees around 2kW :lol:
I can make a video if you guys want to see it...
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by Bernel » Apr 13, 2014 11:24 am

marcexec wrote:Some more progress:
- added another string of 6 SLAs for a total of 72V / 28AH in a lower battery box
- did a quick beta test and took her out for a ride: the SLAs sag like hell, but I can get to ~50 km/h and the CA sees around 2kW :lol:
I can make a video if you guys want to see it...
Good to see you have movement, you should try Alliexpress or Alibaba for your batteries. That's what I did, fifty Lipo batteries, 5000mAh, 18.5V for $23 each plus shipping and import tax. Equivalent Turnigy ones from Hobby King cost $46.

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Apr 13, 2014 3:38 pm

Thanks for the advice. Just had a quick look but couldn't find them for that price with shipping to Ireland.

I'm set on the used Headways (probably 24s4p) from France for the moment :) - they should make a nice first commuter pack and should be in the same range as you paid.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Apr 25, 2014 4:25 am

Well, the Headways fell through due to some miscommunication. I went and measured the space "around" the gearbox assembly and pulled the trigger on 12 Nissan Leaf / Renault Fluence battery modules. Source: http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index. ... Itemid=605.
That should yield ~6kWh and nearly 22kW constant power. Will have to re-tune for the higher voltage then :)
I should be able to mount them in 2 or 3 blocks and get some space under the tank for storage.

Decided to take the bike out for one last lead acid ride:

Apologies for the crappy quality and no sound but I didn't want to risk the good camera on a pice of cardboard strapped to the tank.

Bike is now bare again bar the gearbox. Only took an hour or so to remove the 2 boxes, batteries, controller, motor and cabling.
Some "before" pictures:
ImageImageImageImageImageImage
Last edited by marcexec on Jun 09, 2014 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by gwhy! » Apr 27, 2014 7:17 am

looks good ! what is the approx top speed that you are getting with this setup ?. once you have dumped the lead it will be much lighter.. if you are happy with the 80-100 then you might consider doubling up :wink: works out lighter than a big block.

I can only imagin what sort of voltage sag you are getting but I was getting nearly 6v sag on a 20c 10ah lipo pack ( it is a rather a tired pack ) when push a much small bike at 6kw.

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Apr 27, 2014 8:55 am

Thanks!
fresh off the charger 50km/h on level ground, 2000W tapering off to 1800W on the CA, voltage sag to 50V (off 72V nominal).

Gearbox is out now, too, oil being drained. I will have to cut off some superflous material to save a little weight and check on a slow oil loss (which accumulated in the "front pan"). Side effect is to allow for possible future addition of one of those "big blocks" (Motenergy, Colossus etc.).

And yes, I designed the belt drive from the beginning to allow 2 80-100s: Image
Any idea on the minimum distance between 2 of them (regarding eddy currents)? I think I planned 50mm.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by gwhy! » Apr 27, 2014 9:25 am

I run 2x 80-85 with 12mm as the minimum distance between the cans, eddy currents have not been a problem..

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Apr 29, 2014 2:14 pm

Thanks gwhy!

ImageImageImageImageImageImage
:lol: :mrgreen: :D
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by zEEz » Apr 29, 2014 4:31 pm

marcexec wrote: I went and measured the space "around" the gearbox assembly and pulled the trigger on 12 Nissan Leaf / Renault Fluence battery modules. Source: http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/index. ... Itemid=605.
That should yield ~6kWh and nearly 22kW constant power. Will have to re-tune for the higher voltage then :)
I should be able to mount them in 2 or 3 blocks and get some space under the tank for storage.
great build! with leaf lithium it will be a killer: i had a bandit 400 ... gas :twisted:
Can you tell us if it was easy to have the leaf pack shipped to Europe?
I would buy 4 for my build quite happily! Final cost and customs?
Thanx, have fun! :mrgreen:
from 1A-1S to 300A-16S ESC ^_^ 3g to 10Kg brushless motors ... 3W to 15kW

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by marcexec » Apr 30, 2014 5:14 am

Discussed a little over at BVS (was originally looking for a share of a salvage one but not worth it):
http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk ... f=3&t=3709

12 modules: ~1200€ at my door, no customs so far - 1 out of 3 to go.

BTW, a stack of 4 come in at ~135mm gross height as they stack into each other a little, maybe 2mm each.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 10S6P recycled laptop 18650s & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
All the gear, all the time!

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Re: Suzuki RF400E, original gearbox, brushless outrunner

Post by zEEz » Apr 30, 2014 6:46 am

marcexec wrote:Discussed a little over at BVS (was originally looking for a share of a salvage one but not worth it):
http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk ... f=3&t=3709

12 modules: ~1200€ at my door, no customs so far - 1 out of 3 to go.

BTW, a stack of 4 come in at ~135mm gross height as they stack into each other a little, maybe 2mm each.
thanx for the info! would you be so kind to tell me the courier you choose for shipping and the
delivery time?

have fun
from 1A-1S to 300A-16S ESC ^_^ 3g to 10Kg brushless motors ... 3W to 15kW

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