Red Devil at Taipei

Shenta · Mar 6, 2016

Hello all,

I would like to share my electric mod Honda grom, after remove the gasoline engine, we put in a 45hp hub motor, with 72v 600amp (800phase) controller, and a 80ah of LiPoFe4 battery. We are able to achieve 0~60mph best record around 3.65sec with Q6000 racing logger, the build is not that expensive especially with price drop on the batteries in recent years, but the love and labor into it was tremendous, I would say I spend about UDS6~7K on the parts, and 3 month on the labor (full time), I did use all the BEST stuff I could find, Ohlin suspension, BT601 Tires (only last about 1,000km), Brembo brakes...etc. This devil was build an year ago, and we have run some heavy testing on this platform for over an year, and we really like it's performance... if anyone is in Taipei by chance, just let me know, I am more than glad to take you on a joy ride.

On the race track, taking down a Ducati 1199
[youtube]6vAGsAfjA7I[/youtube]

Tora Harris testing it out in Taipei 2016
[youtube]_gucf17Hwjg[/youtube]

liveforphysics · Mar 6, 2016

Wow! Next time I'm in Taipei I will look you up!

4LivesPerGallon · Mar 6, 2016

Aha, you have the famous e-Grom in Taiwan. Why are there hub motors that powerful? Are those for cars? Your build is very intriguing, and hope you can commercialize your emotorcycle into a "Tesla" of Groms, since your cost seems low for the same performance as $50K electric motorcycles. Is there an eGrom club in Taiwan? How many?

Great videos, thanks for sharing. Congratulations. You are obviously a talented engineer. Did Ducati make you an offer yet?

Could you please post some hires photos of the build up, or the URL of your build-blog if you have one?

Also, how many have you sold to Hong Kong millionaires, lol?

Would be interesting to see a photo comparing your eGrom to the Gogoro escooter which uses a 6800 watt motor (10hp) that goes 95kph, 12 inch wheels. I think the China-made eGroms, with 2000W hub motors, go about 70 kph.

Thanks in advance.

4LivesPerGallon · Mar 6, 2016

Is this the Red Devil beating a Tesla on a drag race?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpnfHAFpMEQ

4LivesPerGallon · Mar 6, 2016

I see your friend has some interesting videos..

Chinese made rubbish 48V20Ah run up bridge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ5VGOuDRQw

Mobipus 48V E-Max 72300 on Bridge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0IqA0FvrfU

Can you explain what is going on? Thanks.

Shenta · Mar 7, 2016

liveforphysics said:
Wow! Next time I'm in Taipei I will look you up!

Thanks Luke, you are the legend here, feel so honored to get your compliment, I will build one bike for Eric from www.electricbike.com soon, after it is done and sent to US, I certainly want to have a ride with you on the track.

Cheers
Shenta

P.S. My buddy Ben Chui have mentioned about you often, he say you are a great rider also.

liveforphysics · Mar 7, 2016

Shenta said:
liveforphysics said:

Wow! Next time I'm in Taipei I will look you up!

Click to expand...

Thanks Luke, you are the legend here, feel so honored to get your compliment, I will build one bike for Eric from http://www.electricbike.com soon, after it is done and sent to US, I certainly want to have a ride with you on the track.

Cheers
Shenta

P.S. My buddy Ben Chui have mentioned about you often, he say you are a great rider also.

Thank you, you're too kind. I typically end up in Taipei at least once a year, I look forward to tracking that super quick scooter with you.

Shenta · Mar 7, 2016

4LivesPerGallon said:
Is this the Red Devil beating a Tesla on a drag race?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpnfHAFpMEQ

Yap, we did manage to find a Tesla Model S P80 for a test run, we were able to catch it up in the first 100 meters or so, in this video we used QS motor, which got alot of problem, overheat, broken shaft, failed hall sensor. After that we custom designed a special motor, and have 9C specially made for us, it reach 38HP in the first Dyno run with 600phase amp, than later reach app 45Hp with 800phase current.

We have been working on controller and motor for a while already, and we mostly play with mid power (15Hp+) and high (50Hp+) vehicle. My buddy Ben Chui's Dutycycle have a dual motor dual controller configure, is able to do 95Kph on flat and do 20degree (yes, 20 degree, not percent %) slop accelerated incline.

[youtube]0Rms0rTox28[/youtube]

Scottydog · Mar 7, 2016

ha ha cool Shenta!

Be great when Eric can get up to speed with your Red Devil project! I've been chatting to him a bit about acquiring the new 72600 controller!

My scooter is awaiting your parts for the upgrade! Maybe when you build and send the sister Red Devil bike you can send a duplicate controller, wire harness, other components and 3C motor so Eric can send them on my way!

Maybe you can send Eric the dimensions of the controller and hub motor dimensions as I might have to get new mounting plates laser cut if different from the current QS motor I am using.

I think I'm going to bite the bullet and build my own 18650 packs as currently no easy way to obtain 72V 20AH options.

I won't be aiming for the same upper power level however, keep things a bit tamer! :shock:

Shenta · Mar 21, 2016

Scottydog said:
ha ha cool Shenta!

Be great when Eric can get up to speed with your Red Devil project! I've been chatting to him a bit about acquiring the new 72600 controller!

My scooter is awaiting your parts for the upgrade! Maybe when you build and send the sister Red Devil bike you can send a duplicate controller, wire harness, other components and 3C motor so Eric can send them on my way!

Maybe you can send Eric the dimensions of the controller and hub motor dimensions as I might have to get new mounting plates laser cut if different from the current QS motor I am using.

I think I'm going to bite the bullet and build my own 18650 packs as currently no easy way to obtain 72V 20AH options.

I won't be aiming for the same upper power level however, keep things a bit tamer!

Hey Scott, sorry for the late reply, it is nice to see you up here too, I was just married last week, everything is kind tight up lately.
Yap, I just talked with Eric, he will carry 72600 soon, and I am hoping to work out a deal for the controller + the motor as a package, so people don't have to test and retest the system, and keep blowing things up.

Here's a video on our very early dyno test on the red devil, we have limited the output power to 30hp for first run sake, as later test, we was able to reach 47hp at full charged battery. Please check the power graph at the end of the video, it is very different from normal gas bikes, electric to give you the edge for racing.

https://youtu.be/YrQ2fU4DMMQ

%E7%9B%B8%E7%89%87%202015-4-13%20%E4%B8%8B%E5%8D%8812%2014%2028.jpg

Shenta · Mar 21, 2016

4LivesPerGallon said:
Aha, you have the famous e-Grom in Taiwan. Why are there hub motors that powerful? Are those for cars? Your build is very intriguing, and hope you can commercialize your emotorcycle into a "Tesla" of Groms, since your cost seems low for the same performance as $50K electric motorcycles. Is there an eGrom club in Taiwan? How many?

Great videos, thanks for sharing. Congratulations. You are obviously a talented engineer. Did Ducati make you an offer yet?

Could you please post some hires photos of the build up, or the URL of your build-blog if you have one?

Also, how many have you sold to Hong Kong millionaires, lol?

Would be interesting to see a photo comparing your eGrom to the Gogoro escooter which uses a 6800 watt motor (10hp) that goes 95kph, 12 inch wheels. I think the China-made eGroms, with 2000W hub motors, go about 70 kph.

Thanks in advance.

Hey 4LivesPerGallon, sorry to answer some of your questions late too, you won't believe how much work is needed for a wedding.

Why are there hub motors that powerful? The hub motors are very powerful and could be more powerful, because of the surface area of magnet and stator increase, the more torque and power you could get out of it, and as the better material is used, the better efficiency and lower temperature could be achieved. Most of Chinese made high power BLDC motor are subject to cheat on material or labor, talk is one thing, sample is another, and when delivery... oh boy. I have heard before that for 5000w 13inch motor, few shipment got its stator bracket broke off on the motorcycle was running on the street, that shipment was for brand name electric motorcycle company, and those motor been send to Turkey and Spain. It was a Chinese saying that other's children can never finish dyeing, there are always more, but as long as money is in his pocket, it is fine. Please do not mistaken our motor with some Chinese manufacture stuff tho, yes, our motor is made in China, but strictly with our standard on material and workmanship.

Is there an eGrom club in Taiwan? How many? Unfortunately, no, there are no eGrom club in Taiwan, but Mobipus have a small fan club about 500 on facebook in Taiwan, all of us are electric motorcycle lovers, everyone have an electric scooter, and some have gogoro also.

Photos of the build up. Sorry, we didn't took much picture during the build up, but here are some pictures for the battery

y3miDyN_v7y0Oi94LuPVBLcORlTnDVO7O_Cr8GorNDhP4u5mLFBc4K6aDitt-7FjKUNLXPr4xuye-AxcAthSZhTZsGTKblHrPp58rdVm0oKg8p2qjmr31T5qsSJaxc7LoZxh6WUVmipkomM9MImUlWdWK6b0hprdcNyiNrhCQ-sD30

y3m9ErFkBSi_0xaJm_PKMMlQ8HLWTTFaVeBGWCgY-OzMvWe1jp1F-uWmnYc0MyvTeGTTEwOgaWdekqvu05yJ0OmiKh_Vqgm7Icsm-Xoa2p_wju0K2cevgkpA0XF9QlkRZ9qRFQSRcYwyTQflnKXCEG0NGnNaiTp71ygXOkSi9FvAdo

y3m5WDE_-5nlwRJcjyIZqiANbKwHzpI5Tf7r_xVovI8T5k59inG-LMu_i2qQ0v2sHP69tdqNzgoHSwDE043oof5pMxSOETp5QcbMaSQ02DR4K8JWLFtlaJF8e5nUD9-M3CjAwWK9_Ke1y8MbpD5mBpWQm8KqEIHXwd7t-W1oYXD_zI

y3mJ10B0rGsx45y3_khGrLbAJR6hv-oecrQTMY0umm-V8t1iV-PcJYYxgTrwsFiGqJChpb8YZctu05bogWRoQMw8sDYK6wqiQc4Wl57EDAPbCzBU2zj9KqPytDEtlStG7N1EuqsbwPldhGVEH3udt26Qe6fzupOHiA8CJJLsC5_NyY

y3mLSaZ_zmNfAc_CRt_MS01hiRl7cr20LzUZStynqcGwExcTiMmaNm7GduCz62B1yIOhK0qhMDY7J92IM6wkaQY5NnZu1J0ZE-M8Fqer_HlSPACahiCdTEDOxpRXhqEFRimc4Op72dUm2qk2FHdQo3fcrMM40Tep0nQlzfLvltG5sA

For the video of "Chinese made rubbish 48V20Ah run up bridge"
Those Chinese manufactures made a bridge with 30 degree of ramp, and trying to show off that with thier 500w motor and 20amp controller could go up, as we all know, it is impossible, what they did is they ask people to ride the bike and get the speed up before the bridge, use the momentum to run up... oh boy, no matter how much they try, but rubbish is always rubbish.

For the video of "Mobipus 48V E-Max 72300 on Bridge" It was our early co-operation with e-max, their sevcon controller have hard time to start from stand still on a 14.7degree slop, you need to give it a kick for the scooter to move forward first, than sevcon controller could drive the motor. But for our controller, it could climb up from 0 speed with ease.

whereswally606 · Mar 21, 2016

Shenta said:
For the video of "Mobipus 48V E-Max 72300 on Bridge" It was our early co-operation with e-max, their sevcon controller have hard time to start from stand still on a 14.7degree slop, you need to give it a kick for the scooter to move forward first, than sevcon controller could drive the motor. But for our controller, it could climb up from 0 speed with ease.

Hey Shenta, amazing work. I am building a small army of E-max scooters in the UK. Do you sell the 72300? if so, how much are the 72300 controllers? I am running 26s lifepo4. Will they cope with that voltage? are they FOC, sine wave or trapezoidal wave controllers? thanks.

Shenta · Mar 21, 2016

whereswally606 said:
Shenta said:

For the video of "Mobipus 48V E-Max 72300 on Bridge" It was our early co-operation with e-max, their sevcon controller have hard time to start from stand still on a 14.7degree slop, you need to give it a kick for the scooter to move forward first, than sevcon controller could drive the motor. But for our controller, it could climb up from 0 speed with ease.

Click to expand...

Hey Shenta, amazing work. I am building a small army of E-max scooters in the UK. Do you sell the 72300? if so, how much are the 72300 controllers? I am running 26s lifepo4. Will they cope with that voltage? are they FOC, sine wave or trapezoidal wave controllers? thanks.

Hey Wally,
Thanks for compliment, we do sell controller, but mostly together with the motor as bundle.
What kind of e-max are you building, Gen1 or Gen2? Can you show us some pictures? Why you manage to do 26s cells? What is your charging voltage?
We did tried 25s for LiPoFe4 on one of our testing bike, but we only charge it up to 89volt or 3.55v per cell to give it better life. But after a year of testing, those headway blue cells failed anyway, like those bad AA battery, acid leak out, and killed some other cells too. May be you will have better luck than we do, but those headway cell's stablity varies from lot to lot.
We have discontinued 72300, the replacement product is 72600, I think it will be more than enough for your application, however our max working voltage is 89volt, I am not sure if your system can work for this voltage.
Please do show us some of your pictures, and if you need help with e-max, please let me know, I know the factory people well.

Scottydog · Mar 21, 2016

Shenta said:
Hey Scott, sorry for the late reply, it is nice to see you up here too, I was just married last week, everything is kind tight up lately.
Yap, I just talked with Eric, he will carry 72600 soon, and I am hoping to work out a deal for the controller + the motor as a package, so people don't have to test and retest the system, and keep blowing things up.

Here's a video on our very early dyno test on the red devil, we have limited the output power to 30hp for first run sake, as later test, we was able to reach 47hp at full charged battery. Please check the power graph at the end of the video, it is very different from normal gas bikes, electric to give you the edge for racing.

Hey no worries Shenta! Married.... will you have time to develop anymore!? :lol:

Wow that is perfect to offer the controller/motor package as better not to have the motor as the weak link! I think from our previous conversation the motor you are using used a stronger shaft and coupling arrangement? Are the general dimensions the same so that the 3 bolt pattern disc and such would work as the current QS motors? It sounds like I would just need to draw up some new mounts and have machined/laser cut to replace my current ones.

I have been asking Eric many questions on the battery front, while I'm game to build a 18650 pack, would be idea if he can get his battery builder/supplier to make 3 20s8p units. Between all that then the build would be awesome! Sheesh I'd be happy with 20hp

Shenta · Mar 22, 2016

Scottydog said:
Shenta said:

Hey Scott, sorry for the late reply, it is nice to see you up here too, I was just married last week, everything is kind tight up lately.
Yap, I just talked with Eric, he will carry 72600 soon, and I am hoping to work out a deal for the controller + the motor as a package, so people don't have to test and retest the system, and keep blowing things up.

Here's a video on our very early dyno test on the red devil, we have limited the output power to 30hp for first run sake, as later test, we was able to reach 47hp at full charged battery. Please check the power graph at the end of the video, it is very different from normal gas bikes, electric to give you the edge for racing.

Click to expand...

Hey no worries Shenta! Married.... will you have time to develop anymore!? :lol:

Wow that is perfect to offer the controller/motor package as better not to have the motor as the weak link! I think from our previous conversation the motor you are using used a stronger shaft and coupling arrangement? Are the general dimensions the same so that the 3 bolt pattern disc and such would work as the current QS motors? It sounds like I would just need to draw up some new mounts and have machined/laser cut to replace my current ones.

I have been asking Eric many questions on the battery front, while I'm game to build a 18650 pack, would be idea if he can get his battery builder/supplier to make 3 20s8p units. Between all that then the build would be awesome! Sheesh I'd be happy with 20hp

Hey Scott,

Yap, Eric is the man you need to talk to, he have ordered one of the Red Devil too, hopefully more people can get and feel the joy of riding electric, in insane style.
As for the design of our controller and motor, we put all the manual, file, 3D drawings in dropbox,
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3wsp915rvnv32dw/AAD5HwRcpLliq6GAy44hQmaya?dl=0

The biggest problem we found out with the old so call high power 13" motor is that, it is not structurally safe, the axial broke very often, that's why for our V2 we made the shaft much larger and used much better steel.

Scottydog · Mar 23, 2016

Shenta said:
Yap, Eric is the man you need to talk to, he have ordered one of the Red Devil too, hopefully more people can get and feel the joy of riding electric, in insane style.

Cool, guess I'll have to make a trip his way when I'm next in his area!

Shenta said:
As for the design of our controller and motor, we put all the manual, file, 3D drawings in dropbox,
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3wsp915rvnv32dw/AAD5HwRcpLliq6GAy44hQmaya?dl=0

Thanks, will look for the motor, is it under drawings I gather?

Shenta said:
The biggest problem we found out with the old so call high power 13" motor is that, it is not structurally safe, the axial broke very often, that's why for our V2 we made the shaft much larger and used much better steel.

I guess with the sudden high torque your controller puts out it stressed the old design very much! I always thought the system was very poor to restrain the torque so it is awesome that you have worked on a better design. Is the motor different in terms of halls quality, windings etc? It is all very exciting! 8)

4LivesPerGallon · Mar 23, 2016

Shenta said:
Scottydog said:

ha ha cool Shenta!

Be great when Eric can get up to speed with your Red Devil project! I've been chatting to him a bit about acquiring the new 72600 controller!

My scooter is awaiting your parts for the upgrade! Maybe when you build and send the sister Red Devil bike you can send a duplicate controller, wire harness, other components and 3C motor so Eric can send them on my way!

Maybe you can send Eric the dimensions of the controller and hub motor dimensions as I might have to get new mounting plates laser cut if different from the current QS motor I am using.

I think I'm going to bite the bullet and build my own 18650 packs as currently no easy way to obtain 72V 20AH options.

I won't be aiming for the same upper power level however, keep things a bit tamer!

Click to expand...

Hey Scott, sorry for the late reply, it is nice to see you up here too, I was just married last week, everything is kind tight up lately.
Yap, I just talked with Eric, he will carry 72600 soon, and I am hoping to work out a deal for the controller + the motor as a package, so people don't have to test and retest the system, and keep blowing things up.

Here's a video on our very early dyno test on the red devil, we have limited the output power to 30hp for first run sake, as later test, we was able to reach 47hp at full charged battery. Please check the power graph at the end of the video, it is very different from normal gas bikes, electric to give you the edge for racing.

https://youtu.be/YrQ2fU4DMMQ

Wow, congratulations on your wedding! Some new wives will not let their husbands ride 2 wheels anymore.

re: ".. no easy way to obtain 72V 20AH options. " Well, they are available online, from what I see. Or, are you looking for something quite special in these packs?

BTW, these eGroms like you have are offered in China, and now, 500 watt ebikes that look like Groms, with pedals, are selling in North America, too, for under C$3K. Are these not sold in Taiwan, since you're so close to China?

4LivesPerGallon · Mar 23, 2016

Shenta said:
4LivesPerGallon said:

Aha, you have the famous e-Grom in Taiwan. Why are there hub motors that powerful? Are those for cars? Your build is very intriguing, and hope you can commercialize your emotorcycle into a "Tesla" of Groms, since your cost seems low for the same performance as $50K electric motorcycles. Is there an eGrom club in Taiwan? How many?

Great videos, thanks for sharing. Congratulations. You are obviously a talented engineer. Did Ducati make you an offer yet?

Could you please post some hires photos of the build up, or the URL of your build-blog if you have one?

Also, how many have you sold to Hong Kong millionaires, lol?

Would be interesting to see a photo comparing your eGrom to the Gogoro escooter which uses a 6800 watt motor (10hp) that goes 95kph, 12 inch wheels. I think the China-made eGroms, with 2000W hub motors, go about 70 kph.

Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

Hey 4LivesPerGallon, sorry to answer some of your questions late too, you won't believe how much work is needed for a wedding.

Why are there hub motors that powerful? The hub motors are very powerful and could be more powerful, because of the surface area of magnet and stator increase, the more torque and power you could get out of it, and as the better material is used, the better efficiency and lower temperature could be achieved. Most of Chinese made high power BLDC motor are subject to cheat on material or labor, talk is one thing, sample is another, and when delivery... oh boy. I have heard before that for 5000w 13inch motor, few shipment got its stator bracket broke off on the motorcycle was running on the street, that shipment was for brand name electric motorcycle company, and those motor been send to Turkey and Spain. It was a Chinese saying that other's children can never finish dyeing, there are always more, but as long as money is in his pocket, it is fine. Please do not mistaken our motor with some Chinese manufacture stuff tho, yes, our motor is made in China, but strictly with our standard on material and workmanship.

Is there an eGrom club in Taiwan? How many? Unfortunately, no, there are no eGrom club in Taiwan, but Mobipus have a small fan club about 500 on facebook in Taiwan, all of us are electric motorcycle lovers, everyone have an electric scooter, and some have gogoro also.

Photos of the build up. Sorry, we didn't took much picture during the build up, but here are some pictures for the battery

For the video of "Chinese made rubbish 48V20Ah run up bridge"
Those Chinese manufactures made a bridge with 30 degree of ramp, and trying to show off that with thier 500w motor and 20amp controller could go up, as we all know, it is impossible, what they did is they ask people to ride the bike and get the speed up before the bridge, use the momentum to run up... oh boy, no matter how much they try, but rubbish is always rubbish.

For the video of "Mobipus 48V E-Max 72300 on Bridge" It was our early co-operation with e-max, their sevcon controller have hard time to start from stand still on a 14.7degree slop, you need to give it a kick for the scooter to move forward first, than sevcon controller could drive the motor. But for our controller, it could climb up from 0 speed with ease.

Cool photos, thanks.

Are these cells individually protected?

How do you cell-balance?

Thanks in advance.

My LIFEPO4 'cycles need manual cell balancing once a year.

4LivesPerGallon · Mar 23, 2016

Where are your Mobipus electric scooters sold? I can't see any on Aliexpress (Alibaba).

Prices? North American dealers?

Scottydog · Mar 24, 2016

4LivesPerGallon said:
re: ".. no easy way to obtain 72V 20AH options. " Well, they are available online, from what I see. Or, are you looking for something quite special in these packs?

I haven't found any in the USA myself. I've seen the Spanish option for custom packs and in China also. It is just the cost to get to my location would be insane. Lunacycle has a 60V option, so just about there! I emailed Eric to find out where his battery builder can do some specific. I'm after 20S8P x 3 packs.

4LivesPerGallon · Mar 25, 2016

Scottydog said:
4LivesPerGallon said:

re: ".. no easy way to obtain 72V 20AH options. " Well, they are available online, from what I see. Or, are you looking for something quite special in these packs?

Click to expand...

I haven't found any in the USA myself. I've seen the Spanish option for custom packs and in China also. It is just the cost to get to my location would be insane. Lunacycle has a 60V option, so just about there! I emailed Eric to find out where his battery builder can do some specific. I'm after 20S8P x 3 packs.

http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=72v++40ah+lithium

Scottydog · Mar 26, 2016

I've seen many of those links, but question is do I trust ordering? I would want to be 100% sure the cells I ask for are the cells I receive!

Scottydog · Mar 29, 2016

Hope Shenta does not mind, I suspect not as he did give the link to the CAD files. I opened them up and took some screen shots to get as better understanding of the new motor design.

View attachment 1

So the mounting shafts look the same, but they did some improvements. To be stronger rather than drill through the shaft to run the cables, they run them separately through the 4 larger holes which allows larger gauge wire also. I don't know what the other two holes are for, but could be for liquid cooling as it was mentioned as option. Maybe they would cool the central laminations?

The other interesting bit is the magnets and laminations are much wider at 70mm vs 45mm so that should give good improvement.

Downside is probably heavier and part of the motor bulges out from the rim.

Scottydog · Mar 30, 2016

From what I can tell the rim is a 12" one, hopefully can get one in a 13" rim as it would not work for my project. :?

Samd · Apr 13, 2016

Red Devil at Taipei

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