PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by John in CR » Mar 30, 2011 2:23 pm

All the FAQ's in the world won't prevent what originated this thread. Identifying and cutting out the tumor is the only cure, and this particular infliction was identified at the end of August within its first few posts.

:idea: Actually the PM issue might be solved with the application of a simple ratio of PM's to posts, and your PM's sent count can't exceed some reasonable % of forum posts with the error message "You need to become a more active member in order to fully utilize the PM function."

OTOH, I really like Luke's method of warding off noob PM's, which is to give some totally off the wall incorrect answer similar to Grindz's suggestion. :mrgreen:

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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by liveforphysics » Mar 30, 2011 2:45 pm

John in CR wrote: OTOH, I really like Luke's method of warding off noob PM's, which is to give some totally off the wall incorrect answer similar to Grindz's suggestion. :mrgreen:

Yes.

Tell them to lick the elements inside their toaster.

Tell them to take their battery into the bathtub with them. (which would just tickle)

If it's a roundcell pack, maybe tell them they need to snip all the tabs apart and count the cells? Or look for the off-colored cell hidden in the pack?

Make an extension cord to plug their battery directly into the wall outlet perhaps? :)
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by El_Steak » Mar 30, 2011 3:05 pm

One of his first post was actually to slam Doctorbass in the "Manufacturers to Avoid" ?!? thread.

Here's what I had suggested to him at the time:
Everytime I asked Doctorbass questions he promptly answered. Before I asked a question though, I made sure to educate myself by searching the forum for the answer. 95% of the time somebody else already asked that same question.

If your question is of general interest (most of the time), make sure to ask it in "public" and then if you get no answer, you can PM a "guru" and ask them if they can give their answer in the public thread you have created. This way everybody can benefit from the information.
Seems like the advise flew right over his head...

On the topic of the FAQ, I think the best way to implement it would be through a wiki interface. Unfortunately, this requires software install, admin and hosting...
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by neptronix » Mar 30, 2011 3:16 pm

I am pretty much against wikis as people rarely use them. They work great in situations where you have an amazing amount of information in one place ( wikipedia ) but all of the ones i have seen get neglected and collect dust.
The lack of a nice structured index is usually what makes them less useable in a setting where you don't have crazy amounts of information. I think there is a way to make a good index but i have never seen anyone actually set it up that way.

Every message board i've been on except this one has FAQs so i don't see why us having some is a problem. It's funny how much resistance i have seen. Consolidation is the way to go, and making the metric shit-ton of information on this board easier to digest will really help things. I spend a lot of time helping out the newbies as i was one too and found this board very intimidating.
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by auraslip » Mar 30, 2011 4:04 pm

reading some of the posts in the infamous manufacturers to avoid thread made me realize what this thread was really about. It never occurred to me that people would lack the tact to bother you with questions that are easily answered with the search function.

I don't know why you guys are shocked though. Were you expecting beavis to not be a butthead? :lol:
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by John in CR » Mar 30, 2011 4:16 pm

Neptronix,

The biggest problem is that things are changing at a rapid pace. Just look at the obsolete stickies and some of the sub forum the stickies were updated not long ago. How about just a simple FAQ including instructions on how best to use the search function, because I've never have gotten much from it, with my successes typically just to find a thread I already know exists. Other FAQs could be a few basics....a glossary of terms and acronyms, how to get started. I know Ypedal has some really good stuff that he's written up.

OR

We could just say fuckit. ES may very well be the best forum on the planet, so don't mess with a good thing, because you might mess it up.

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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by neptronix » Mar 30, 2011 4:25 pm

John in CR wrote:Neptronix,

The biggest problem is that things are changing at a rapid pace. Just look at the obsolete stickies and some of the sub forum the stickies were updated not long ago. How about just a simple FAQ including instructions on how best to use the search function, because I've never have gotten much from it, with my successes typically just to find a thread I already know exists. Other FAQs could be a few basics....a glossary of terms and acronyms, how to get started. I know Ypedal has some really good stuff that he's written up.

OR

We could just say fuckit. ES may very well be the best forum on the planet, so don't mess with a good thing, because you might mess it up.
I know what you mean, John.
I think there are some pretty established things that can be touched upon that aren't changing through.
I mentioned a bunch of them in tylerdurden's thread.

hub motors, lipo setups, lifepo4 setups, charging, bike specifics, torque arms etc etc. are all pretty much well established these days.

When it comes to topics like RC drive, friction drive, mid drive etc i think those are definitely futile to have a FAQ for.

ES is the best forum for eBikes on the planet. But i've had probs with the search myself too; if you search by the words of the post, you often get extreme information overload. If you search by topic, you are very likely to miss the right key words.

You can teach people how to search correctly but it is not a solution.
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by TylerDurden » Mar 30, 2011 4:52 pm

neptronix wrote: I think there are some pretty established things that can be touched upon that aren't changing through...
hub motors, lipo setups, lifepo4 setups, charging, bike specifics, torque arms etc etc. are all pretty much well established these days.
Not really.

There is not an established FAQ "problem". Hence the survey thread.

John's point is bang-on, this thread OP is about a member being a dipstick.
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by neptronix » Mar 30, 2011 6:22 pm

TylerDurden wrote:
neptronix wrote: I think there are some pretty established things that can be touched upon that aren't changing through...
hub motors, lipo setups, lifepo4 setups, charging, bike specifics, torque arms etc etc. are all pretty much well established these days.
Not really.

There is not an established FAQ "problem". Hence the survey thread.

John's point is bang-on, this thread OP is about a member being a dipstick.
You've been undermining my attempts to create a FAQ since i first brought it up.
I brought up the idea. I came up with ideas on how to do it and attempted to discuss what goes where until that stalled. I offered to do the hard work involved in making quality FAQs. I found people who are interested in writing others, and was willing to work with them to make it happen if nobody else was willing to do it.

What's your problem, "Tyler"? if you'd rather use the search option all day; go ahead. Don't take a dump on me for trying to do something good for the new members of ES.
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by auraslip » Mar 30, 2011 6:37 pm

Hey Nep,
I think the best way for you to go about this is to start writing! If you get good stuff, it's almost guaranteed to be stickied! You can send it to me for proofreading and editing too if you'd like.
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by neptronix » Mar 30, 2011 6:52 pm

auraslip wrote:Hey Nep,
I think the best way for you to go about this is to start writing! If you get good stuff, it's almost guaranteed to be stickied! You can send it to me for proofreading and editing too if you'd like.
To be honest i am a bit of a perfectionist so the idea of writing stuff and not having it go anywhere would be kinda maddening! The only reason i haven't gone through and put it in post format is because i've brought up the FAQ idea a few times before and got flak for it before so i figured why bother writing the stuff?

I have been collecting data, taking pictures, testing things, and collecting numbers since i first got started with this eBike stuff. If you are willing to take my writings and ES isn't then that would be cool.
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by torqueon » Mar 30, 2011 7:29 pm

E.S. a wealth of good information ! I must say that most of what I learn here is merly by random browsing. I rarely find info by searching. .
F A Q thread sounds like a daunting task to create !
How about each sub forum have a suggested reading list and create links to already writen and known post. I am thinking this idea may be easier and make the gatekeepers job easier.

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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by Ypedal » Mar 30, 2011 7:36 pm

custom mods to the forum are pretty much out of the question at this point in time, unfortunately, we have to work with what we have on hand, ( as my boss would say " it's out of scope " ) .

I put this together a while back :
http://www.ypedal.com/rant/rant.htm

I could transfer all the data onto the e-bike FAQ, it's a good start.. and at least this way i have my own backup copy off-site this time..
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by torqueon » Mar 30, 2011 8:10 pm

I get it. I say leave well enough alone. I browse all the time and love the treasure hunt ! Keep it simple

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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by John in CR » Mar 30, 2011 8:32 pm

Neptronix,

I believe there is some risk in making changes, because I challenge anyone to put a finger on why ES does run so smoothly. Changing something could have unintended consequences. First time builders are building better ebikes than ever, so they must finding the info they need. It may very well be that having to sift through more info causes newcomers to learn more. The current setup may also overwhelm noobs sufficiently that they spend more time learning and less time asking stupid questions. A great FAQ is quite likely to just make those questions more stupid. The knee jerk reaction is sure it would be great as a resource, but I'm not so sure that's the whole story.

There will always be noob questions no matter how easily info is packaged up, and there may be a disservice in packaging. ie someone comes in, gets that easy basic info, and they leave thinking they're armed with all the info they need. I believe a first timer is much better off spending weeks or months on ES learning volumes when they had only one simple question, than they would be finding a quick answer to that original question.

Basic kit installation and troubleshooting info is the responsibility of the seller AFAIC.

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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by Ziggurat » Mar 30, 2011 10:06 pm

neptronix wrote: To be honest i am a bit of a perfectionist so the idea of writing stuff and not having it go anywhere would be kinda maddening! The only reason i haven't gone through and put it in post format is because i've brought up the FAQ idea a few times before and got flak for it before so i figured why bother writing the stuff?

I have been collecting data, taking pictures, testing things, and collecting numbers since i first got started with this eBike stuff...
Neptronix, at the risk of continuing off the original topic, I have to chime in and let you know you're not alone on this -- I agree with you, and I don't understand why anyone would be against good clear information written once rather than many times. But it looks like maybe ES is not the place for summary info (FAQs or whatever) -- it somehow doesn't fit the culture and the technology, which is what many have been saying in this thread. I wrote my "ebikes for dummies" post from notes I had collected, same as you. With a most-recent-at-the-top forum with the volume of posts that ES has, any post is lost to history in a couple of days. Even with stickies/tech ref section, there is so much here it is hard to sort through, and I found a lot of the stickied info was older or had grown to include too much detail for newbies to make sense of.

When people ask me how I learned to make my own ebike, I blush and say, well... I spent a couple of hours a night for three or four months obsessively reading online forums ... they lose interest pretty fast after that, most people just want to get the job done. There needs to be something done right for those kind of people, but it sounds like it would be better on its own site. Some ES members have pointed to their sites, and there is some great info on those too, maybe those or new ones just need to continue to be built upon. Then eventually, they can be pointed to as answers in the ongoing stream of questions on ES.
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by neptronix » Mar 30, 2011 10:31 pm

Thanks Ziggurat.

I can identify with that, especially the part about referring ES to other people. I can't forget how confused by everything i was when i got here. I will direct my efforts off site, submit them, and if they aren't accepted as sticky material, no loss. I am done fighting for FAQs / info organization.
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by auraslip » Mar 30, 2011 10:39 pm

I spent a couple of hours a night for three or four months obsessively reading online forums ... they lose interest pretty fast after that, most people just want to get the job done.
While may enjoy this forum, many people just want clear information. Now I just tell people to google my name plus ebike, and they'll find all the basics
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by TylerDurden » Mar 30, 2011 11:10 pm

First:
This board was not established for the support of nooBs. Most early members came here after another board collapsed, having already some (and often significant) skills and knowledge. This board quickly established itself as the foremost public forum for light EV technology. NooBs have been welcome, and been treated pretty well... The ones that had some brain cells seemed to get along just fine. The slower folks got shepherded by newer members.

Next:
Y'all might consider that many of the seasoned members would have written a FAQ if they felt it was worthwhile. After all, they are the ones who have shared the task of helping nooBs in public and private. They are not so stupid as to waste time saying the same things over and over, if a simple FAQ would cover it.

The most common questions are like:
-Is this a good bike to convert?
-What's the best motor/controller/battery?
-Are ebikes illegal?
-Why did my bike stop working?
Each of those types of questions is a dependency-bomb, not capable of being covered by a pat-answer.

NooBs on the other hand, are very eager for a FAQ; since they don't have the experience to understand how situational and dependency-laden most questions are. They are also usually the least qualified to develop a good FAQ... despite their eagerness to show their newly cultivated skills, as much gets missed or misstated as get covered.

Lastly:
The best way to develop a FAQ is to find the FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS...EH?

So far, I haven't seen anyone look... ONE TEST IS WORTH A THOUSAND OPINIONS.

Or in other words: don't guess, measure. Show the data, or shut the frock up.
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by number1cruncher » Mar 31, 2011 2:38 pm

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I have found that searching turns up more trash than treasure in this place. Probably operator error.

I have found that posting questions turns up a little more, but usually does not answer my question completely.

The only satisfactory answers I've received have been through PMs or reading extensive posts clogged by bs such as this thread. I've come to the conclusion that there are a lot of intellegent people on this board, but they have very polarizing views. These opinions are sometimes technical such as what is the best connector, battery brand, hub brand etc. A FAQ is not going to be helpful, as each person has their own preferences. A FAQ can not help a noob chose which connector to use. Preference will prevail in the end.

My opinion as to why E-S is so successful is because of a few highly technical users that are very modest and helpful. I find LFP's post funny, because I have always been impressed that someone so smart actually takes the time to answer a lot of questions. Some very basic. Besides him, Jeremy Harris, Fetcher and GGoodrum have answered some of the same questions each multiple times. Especially Jeremy, he seems to really want to help people. Not once have I seen them be condescending in their replies.

Doc - I think you can put the Beav on your enemies list and he'll fade into the sunset. Also, since you brought it up - Can we have a CHATROOM, lol. Real time help would be really neat. I think I know Tyler's answer though...

What would be really nice would be if technical terms were hyperlinked to a glossary. I'll keep dreaming... :mrgreen:
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by Gordo » Mar 31, 2011 2:55 pm

I also find a glossary is really needed. Even with an electronic background of many year, I probably have to lookup 50% of the abbreviation. Trying to fathom EFI at the same time as ebike scrambles my poor old brain. ESC= Electronic Spark Control, etc.
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by katou » Mar 31, 2011 7:35 pm

A FAQ thread can handle very different viewpoints. Explain them both.

As for choices for wire connectors (for example) where everyone has their own preference, list all the options, do a pro/con for each: done.

No matter where we start, we'll make some headway. But only if we actually start.

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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 31, 2011 8:06 pm

The fact is that o E-S, we have a VERY LARGE variety of skill between noob and hyper technical persons.

I'm here since 2007 and i consider i answered alot and alot of PMs and email about wide skill level questions. I still continue and will continue to do that for people that show real respect on E-S. I am not the only one who answer and answer and help and create thread for explaining from basic to highly skill subject on ebikes.

But.. I also consider that the noob that become more skilled over the time on E-S can also begin to help. The knowledge that people get on E-S is really valuable and cumulative... it must become like a relay help...

old Noob that have learned enough for their first of second E-project over the month can now help the noob etc...

Easy questions should be answered by the medium knowledge persons, difficult questions should be answered by the highly skilled persons.

We must relay the help between all the skill level persons...

Many of us answered many times these really simple questions like .. what is the power i need, what is the best battery....etc :roll:

do we still like answering them?.. probably...... but it become not really pleasant of doing that too many times over the time....

I remember when i arrived on E-S 4 years ago I asked many questions too.. but after few month i just began pay it forward as we should all do... and than.. the loop continu.. and noob become better skilled and than pay it forward...

What i mean is.. We must share the load!!!

We are like a big bank of mosfet in parallel... a bad current sharing will make some to overheat! :lol: .. that's why the current to each fets should be equally shared! by that way, the controller (E-S) will last for long and will have happy no stressed fets!

:wink:

remember... Sharing the load!... sharing the questions we can answer!

I think that's the way to go

The past experience of few days ago with Beav.... was like a controller having a fet with rds on of 0.000miliohm with an shorted fet driver i parallel with many 10 ohm rds on fets with open drivers!

and the controller did not wanted to sustain all the current demand (100+ pm questions) to that single fet!

The controller was already pushed really high! and the heat it created was a warn but it was never took into considerations...


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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by TylerDurden » Apr 01, 2011 8:08 am

TylerDurden wrote:NooBs on the other hand, are very eager for a FAQ; since they don't have the experience to understand how situational and dependency-laden most questions are. They are also usually the least qualified to develop a good FAQ... despite their eagerness to show their newly cultivated skills, as much gets missed or misstated as get covered.
Example 1:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 53&start=0
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Re: PM box IS NOT A CHATROOM !

Post by Ykick » Apr 01, 2011 8:44 am

Finally, bit through my tongue so gotta say this forum has always had it's nuances. love 'em or hate 'em, it works in it's own unique and beautiful way.

I finally joined late '09 but I've lurked since when the V forum went nuclear, '06-'07 or so? 'seen a lot and 'appreciate the "old timers" who've shared and shared and shared when they didn't have to - thank you guys!

IMO - This place operates like a brain - as humans we can only tap a fraction of credible information scattered about. So what if things are duplicated or misplaced? More likely to be found when looked for, yes? Or, more likely to be corroborated, corrected, updated, lost, found, etc.

I firmly believe laws of physics always prevail and Cream rises to the top. So if something is genuinely helpful it will usually get stuck someplace. But if not perhaps forgotten until the next time somebody comes here asking related question which revives the topic to it's forgotten glory but with the background to insure the most credible information possible.

Search frustrates me too but when the "right" terms get input - I always seem to find some discussion somewhere that has what I was looking for. Maybe organization could be better but what's mostly lacking is my own skill to use the current search and that's where I need help and education. How about a search FAQ? Probably already one - I just haven't looked yet...

Attempting to create FAQ's can't hurt (except feelings, of course) but actually being useful is an entirely different thing and only time will tell.

Thank you ES members and admin for providing me this outlet to learn and improve my life!
Talent must not be wasted.... Those who have talent must hug it, embrace it, nurture it and share it lest it be taken away from you as fast as it was loaned to you.

- Frank Sinatra

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