Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

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Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by icecube57 » Oct 02, 2012 5:02 am

Again I'm seeing a surge of simple questions being asked on the whole forum in General. Some of them are common sense question. Some are questions that really deserve no response...But we feed the newbs. This forum is repository of info. At my job we were only led so far until our floor support said find it in the knowledge database. I had to make it work lose my job trying.Very basic electronics and common sense goes a long way... Reading simple cues like...Input on the charger... +.....- should tell you where to plug in a PSU. I still find myself going to my manual to figure out how to use my charger. If you are asking questions and are into e bikes in any way period and don't own even the cheapest volt meter you should reconsider where you are at in your e bike walk of life. That should have been tool #1 in you. There are so many people deserving of the Darwin Award its unreal. I'm for the e bike movement but people are pour their hearts out every day asking the same things over and over again. This maybe a pet peeve of me personally but day in and day out I have to play/dumb things down for people on my jobs as a CSR for Comcast. It never ceases to amaze me the lack of basic comprehension some people exhibit. My personality makes me gifted in certain areas but when it comes to passing this information on to others its very difficult. We have gurus on the forum that can speak jargon beyond my understanding. If i want to know what it means i educate myself. Very rare that I ask for something to be spoon fed to me. I still look up old info that is 3-4 years old. Wiring combos and phase combinations. I can read and figure out how to test my own mosfets or know the symptoms of a blown hall or shorted phase. I can find posts on how to check halls and perform input resistor mods. The info is here but people are just lazy. I totally understand second opinions and getting constructive input on your build. That's not what im talking about. Its the blandest most generic questions. My motor doesn't turn. Obviously there was no real minimum troubleshooting effort done.Person probably doesnt own a volt meter. People like this end up being part swappers and keep swapping stuff until something changes indirectly. Then they ask another question and start another thread to continue on with the problem sometimes you have to grasp the overall picture and how things interact on you bike. The easiest well thought out designs in ebike connectivity are great but sometimes basic TS and common sense goes a long way in narrowing the scope of your problem I often find myself copy and pasting previously scripted info just to avoid explaining myself to people again. I know Amberwolf takes the time and uses search and cross post information. Dog man day in and day out explains the facts of ebike life to the virgins out here. We have a wiki would go a long way in explaining some of the basics. I know the search on this forum really does suck but Google does wonders searching through the forum and the net in general. I just find it hard to believe that with the information that's on the forum now that people cant TS, make informed decisions , form their own opinions by reading other users experiences, etc etc. This maybe just venting but I need people to READ PLEASE. Diversify the knowledge in your mind instead of diluting it with the narrow-mindedness of your questions.

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by Jeremy Harris » Oct 02, 2012 5:08 am

I have to say I agree 100% with this. We all try and repeatedly answer the same old questions, but I'll freely admit that I do skip more and more of these common query threads when they come up now. I take my hat off to the stalwarts who step in and repeatedly answer the same questions; I'm afraid my patience level (and available forum time) doesn't often stretch that far.

The other issue is people who don't post on the forum but just ask questions PMs in what often turns out to be a lengthy (and time consuming) PM exchange. Frequently these questions would have been better asked on the forum, if only so that they could be accessed and searched by all.
Please ask questions on the forum, rather than by PM, as it helps others and you'll get a better range of answers.

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by captain387 » Oct 02, 2012 6:25 am

Would an extra step to registration help out this situation.

"Before you hit the forums here are two links to get you going. Please bookmark and review for many years of knowledge; from how do I, to my motor runs backwards."

Ebike 101 Wiki

https://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/Main_Page

Search Endless-Sphere

http://www.google.ca/search?q=endless+s ... 80&bih=892
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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by amberwolf » Oct 02, 2012 6:28 am

If people could be bothered to read that extra step, they could also be bothered to read or search for stuff. But if they won't do the latter, they probably won't do the former, either.



So that's why I said this:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =1&t=40332
but even I am apparently not doing it. :(

Even a crappy wiki article to post a link to or tell people to search the wiki for would be a huge timesaver for stuff like this. But people have to write them, or at least copy/paste stuff from the forum onto it.


At least if people that answer questions all the time only had to post a link, it would save them a lot of time and either they could get more done themselves, or they could help more people.


Regarding PMs, if people PM me with questions better asked on the forum, especially after I added a line in my sig not to do so, their messages get sent to my spam folder, and they get a rule added to my PM inbox to automatically route any future messages from them there. Eventually i may peer thru the folder to see if anything important is in there, but I don't generally bother now. There just isn't time. Some people I *will* help via PM, but it's not the right way to do it for almost all fo the questions I am asked. Might sound harsh, but I've been "yelled at" by people for pointing out the search function to them when they ask questions by PM, and i don't take that sort of thing well, so I found it is beter if I do not answer at all.


Plus the questions that are extremely easy to find answers for, even with as crappy as the PHPBB search function is, like how to find out why messages sit in the outbox. That might be the most-asked unnecessary question I get.



FWIW, what is more frustrating to me than people that don't search (whcih is INCREDIBLY frustrating, especially when people actually say they aren't searching because they can't be bothered or "don't have time" themselves, and expect others to waste their own time finding stuff for them, like a recent thread I bowed out of), is people that post the same question, usually word for word, in multiple threads, often ones that have nothing to do (or very little) with the question or the poster. Especially after people ALREADY ANSWERED them in their original thread! :evil:

Anyway, enough griping....everybody start writing those wiki articles instead of answering the same questions over and over! ;)

Go to it!

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by t3sla » Oct 02, 2012 6:32 am

The search function blows, I usually end up using google to search the site....
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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by amberwolf » Oct 02, 2012 6:36 am

That's why i tried to make this a global announcement to sit at the top of every forum:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 13&t=32102
but it doesn't give me that option (I do have it for almsot any other thread).

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by gwhy! » Oct 02, 2012 6:46 am

On Another forum that I visit they have a beginners section that new members can only post into and needs to make 5 posts with a minimum of 2 replys from other members to allow the new user to post in other threads, if the thread becomes usefully/popular then gets moved into the relevant section of the forum this appears to work very well for the most of the time as it cuts down on repeated questions as there are a few stickys at the top of the beginners thread about searching to find info. :? just a thought...

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by dogman dan » Oct 02, 2012 7:06 am

Even if the wiki was completed, they wouldn't look at it. That's a lot of why I keep trying to dumb it down for the noobs over and over. I was so green once myself not so long ago.

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by migueralliart » Oct 02, 2012 9:04 am

This will keep happening simply because it is easier for the newbies to start a thread than it is to access the WIKI or do a search. I've seen this in way to many forums it is annoying but hey!, the mid level newbies will often times answer the questions before the gurus :)

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by Drunkskunk » Oct 02, 2012 9:24 am

Its Human Nature.

(1) People tend to see them selves as special and unique, therefore any problem they encounter is special and unique and requires an answer specific to them, from their point of view. You learn this lesson fast working in any kind of call center. An Ex of mine who was rather clever at understanding humans believes its the same kind of motivational force that causes small children to cry for mommy even when they aren't really hurt; They just need that reassurance and attention from another human being that it realy is going to be ok.

(2) Social interaction is a basic human drive. I believe it's third on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. The best way to start a conversation with a stranger is with a question. And since a forum like this is more of a comunity than a simple information repository, every noob who comes here is going to ask a question just to get a conversation started. By having their question answered, they have had a chance interact with other members here in a personal way.

(3) And people are F'ing lazy. :D
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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by HAROX » Oct 02, 2012 9:30 am

:arrow: :?: :oops: :arrow: :roll:

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by Ypedal » Oct 02, 2012 10:21 am

Agreed with all above.

Also to mention that sometimes newbs just dont know what to search for, what words or terms to use in a search, been there done that, thank god for helpful people or i would have never gotten where i'm at today... and i have much more to learn as well.

It's what led me to my projects page, i document things i do as i do them, in no specific order, but i can use it as reference material to newb questions i've already answered lol.
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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by leffex » Oct 02, 2012 10:33 am

One said google search works better. Sure ill start using it to this site since i sometime not get the information I need.

Regarding Human Nature.
Basic of human instinct is also to do "something their own way". Even if you have a helper giving all information for free the person will not follow the helpers information but rather go on the basics of their own, how it sounds, popularity image or looks.

"This will keep happening simply because it is easier for the newbies to start a thread than it is to access the WIKI or do a search" migueralliart

"That's why i tried to make this a global announcement to sit at the top of every forum:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 13&t=32102" amberwolf

"Would an extra step to registration help out this situation.
"Before you hit the forums here are two links to get you going. Please bookmark and review for many years of knowledge; from how do I, to my motor runs backwards.
https://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/Main_Page" captain387

Indeed captain387 that would be perfect and also some addons to the wiki saying what you can do and get from it. Right now the first page says: "You may have noticed that there is almost nothing here yet. That's because this wiki is brand new!"

This means for the first time viewer, "Oh this is not so much information here yet and also since its new and the information concludes its almost empty i better go ask in the forum and get expert opinions."

The text could be changed to this on first wiki page.
ES is increasing its knowledge everyday. All ES-members can contribute to this wiki connected to the forum site where additional information also is available here. link to login
Please search and learn the new world of ebiking!
Most read article(or top 5)
Newest arctile added (newest 5)

I feel its like a list of info in the wiki and not so much more...

It would be cool to read personal articles like, "driving a ebike in the snow, or destert etc. to make play, to make it enjoying to read. Most people like stories and would rather believe fake and make up beliefs rather than true facts when it comes to this. Thats why some pers get so much charisma, truth in disguise of stories and people in the world belives this today if you look at the world as it is.

The most important. A database for "one" person or which have no links will make it a no brainer with no connections a lonley human in the pacific ocean wont come so far as a big cruiser line with millions of pending questions, information exchanges etc.
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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by velias » Oct 02, 2012 2:35 pm

It would probably help if the topic index categories were more relevent and numerous.
For example have catagories on the different parts of a e-bike so that people can easily zero in on a topic.
There is no "BMS" category. There should be, rather than bms posts listed under "battery technology"
So have a BMS category, Throttle Category, Controller category, battery category. etc.
Maybe a category dedicated to new users as well.

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by mdd0127 » Oct 02, 2012 2:53 pm

This is the last forum that I even go to. It seems like more and more idiots are discovering forums every day which sucks because they used to be cool places to spread ideas. Aside from ip banning anyone that asks a stupid question or trolls, there's not much we can do but let the idiots take over.

I'm giving up on the internet and society all together. Within the next few weeks, I'm moving to a piece of land in the middle of nowhere, planting some food, and checking out. Hopefully, the morons ruin everything and kill each other quickly so the people that are left can get a fresh start.

Have fun everyone!
Turn it OFF!!!

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by amberwolf » Oct 02, 2012 3:01 pm

leffex wrote:Indeed captain387 that would be perfect and also some addons to the wiki saying what you can do and get from it. Right now the first page says: "You may have noticed that there is almost nothing here yet. That's because this wiki is brand new!"

This means for the first time viewer, "Oh this is not so much information here yet and also since its new and the information concludes its almost empty i better go ask in the forum and get expert opinions."

The text could be changed to this on first wiki page.
ES is increasing its knowledge everyday. All ES-members can contribute to this wiki connected to the forum site where additional information also is available here. link to login
Please search and learn the new world of ebiking!
Most read article(or top 5)
Newest arctile added (newest 5)
All members can edit the wiki, so you're welcome to change the greeting. ;)

I feel its like a list of info in the wiki and not so much more...

That's the point of a wiki.

It would be cool to read personal articles like, "driving a ebike in the snow, or destert etc. to make play, to make it enjoying to read. Most people like stories and would rather believe fake and make up beliefs rather than true facts when it comes to this. Thats why some pers get so much charisma, truth in disguise of stories and people in the world belives this today if you look at the world as it is.
That's what the forum is for.

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by Dauntless » Oct 02, 2012 3:37 pm

Well, let's see. You're assuming:

1) That noone ever tries a search.

2) That a search is guaranteed to bring up the information in a manner they'll understand, as well as seeming applicable. Remember that if they know little about the subject they're likely to gloss right over related material simply because they don't understand it.

3) That after looking at some number of links that come up that really aren't related, then not understanding several that remotely related, that they will really believe that they can just keep reading and eventually find what they're looking for. To someone who doesn't read much, a messageboard search is a major challenge.

4) That even people who don't normally use messageboards readily understand that there IS a search available, or comprehend how it really works.

5) That even when you respond to their post with what they're specifically looking for, that they finally understand.

Once you consider that, you realize that getting more people to search would reduce the repeat info posts some, but there will always be large numbers who aren't ready to succeed that way.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by Punx0r » Oct 02, 2012 4:50 pm

It's true that sometimes you can't find the info you need in a search because you don't know the correct terminology. Though it doesn't bloody hurt to try, and to say you've done so.

Has "search before you post" stopped being a basic piece of netiquette?

Oh, and just for nostalgia:

"Posting and You"

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by cal3thousand » Oct 02, 2012 5:14 pm

I certainly try to search, but the function in it's simplest form does not bring the relevant information. So that generally leads the less diligent and patient to fire off a post to meet their needs (as addressed by previous posts).

Do a search for '24S' for example and you will get crap information. Search for '24S*' will get you slightly better information, but it is still too convoluted.

Using Google to "site:endless-sphere.com 24S*" will get you many search results, but will include any time a person's signature refers to 24S.

I really wish there was a way for us to rank posts based on the type of information that they provide and be searchable based on those criteria. For example, if a member posts a great diagram on battery setups, it would be nice if we could rank it as a good diagram. Sometimes, I wish long threads could be paraphrased or the major posts in the thread be highlighted. That way, noobs wouldn't get discouraged to look for information since it will be distilled down to the important stuff.
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by amberwolf » Oct 02, 2012 5:29 pm

Search-fu (how to "beat" a search engine that is hiding things in plain sight) is something some people are good at, and others are not, and some learn it better than others, too. Some search engines (like the PHPBB one) just suck. Others are unpredictable (like google) because of games they play with data manipulation.



FWIW, it is too often people who have been on this board for a while (sometimes a long while, more than a year or two) who repeatedly ask questions already long answered, occasionally in discussions they themselves participated in or even started. Some of them also keep starting new threads for the same problem instead of continuing the one they were already troubleshooting in, making the process harder for them and those trying to help. Those are the people I most have a problem with.

People who have never been on forums (or sometimes even on the internet!) could be excused, except for those that are shown how to find stuff but still don't try (or if they did, it wasn't for very long or putting much thought into it, as I am often able to easily find the info they are looking for just using the terms they put into the title of their thread--sure; I know what I am looking for, but often enough what they need is in the first hit, if they read the thread).

I will try to help almost anyone at least the first time. Maybe even the second. The third time and beyond, it's pretty hard to keep doing when it's obvious they don't want to try but instead want to be spoon-fed. Those are not that common, but come up often enough to worry me and make me wonder about why people are not taught to research (I run into this problem everywhere I go, even in retail stores where I am just another customer, and I see other customers asking where things are that are clearly labeleld on teh overhead signs, or asking what price something is when the shelf label or the label on the product clearly shows that, or asking what ingredients are in something when that is also clearly labelled).


I knwo it's not as easy for some people to learn or understand, and that's somethign that can be worked around, by changing the way it's explained--I'm fairly good at that. But when they don't actually *want* to learn, that's a problem--especially here, where it takes some (though not usually a lot of) technical information and abilities to be able to even determine what problem someone is having, much less figure out how to solve it.

I would like ebikes to be a much simpler thing, more reliable, so that people don't have to come here and troubleshoot as often...but for the foreseeable future, they are what they are.

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by bikerough » Oct 02, 2012 5:53 pm

I already spent more time reading the forum than I should have, and I really appreciate the advice given as well as numerous threads on this forum. Most of my questions were answered in those threads. However, when I made a decision to get all the components, I made a thread of my own. Could I have found the same advice in somebody else's thread? Sure. As a newb, I want to get assurance that I translated technical discussions in this forum in a meaningful way and won't make major mistakes in the process.
Maybe we need a separate stickied thread for people like me?
That said, the forum advice is tremendous, and the newb tolerance is what makes it so useful - makes it easier to find answers to all the questions that we have. Of course, in some cases the questions might sound stupid (like, which controllers interface with CA), but any time somebody else volunteers to push us one direction or another, it is great!
The forum involuntarily is doing the job of manufacturers in documenting the equipment and its use. And I thank everyone who jumped in to help. Those who get annoyed by it - oh well, take a fast ride and wait until we catch up.

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by Dauntless » Oct 02, 2012 6:28 pm

amberwolf wrote:. . . .who repeatedly ask questions already long answered, occasionally in discussions they themselves participated in or even started.
I've done that plenty all over.

Some things just turn out the way they have to be.
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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by cal3thousand » Oct 02, 2012 6:56 pm

How about a thread that people can go to just to ask questions and advice such as "do you think this setup will work?" or "I need help..."
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

Planning on posting questions or buying anything on this site? Put up your country (at minimum) on your profile. This is a worldwide forum and we haven't reached clairvoyance.

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by amberwolf » Oct 02, 2012 7:13 pm

Mostly, those kinds of questions need their own thread, so the specifics of a system or a problem and their troubleshooting don't get all mixed up with other people getting help. Thats' one reason I sometimes move people's posts out of other people's threads into their own, because it can get way too confusing to help like that.


I guess the thing is that people each have their own way of doing things, and some don't categorize very much and some overcategorize (I've been guilty of that).

Best we can do is to work around the issues, give poeple links to either how to find the material they need, or to the material itself, or just answer their questions directly.

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Re: Do people even try reading or searching anymore?

Post by spinningmagnets » Oct 02, 2012 7:18 pm

Is there any way to make Google the default ES search? As a test, I just did an ES search of "GNG" (a recently active thread of interest) and there were NO results at all! I went to Google and searched...

site:endless-sphere gng

...and it gave me all the threads with GNG in them on the first page.

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