ES Rules - Have your say !

This section will contain posting guidelines for the forum along with any other information that is relevant to this forum.
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ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by Ypedal » Mar 27, 2009 10:58 am

Rules, as much as we hate them.. :lol:

We have been discussing an official set of rules for the forum, moderation methods etc..

This is an attempt at opening the door to all forum members to put in their 2 cents ( can't say it will all be used, but we welcome all ideas none the less ! )

To get the ball rolling, here are a few items:

- Before you start a thread, please do a " SEARCH " at the very top of the forum. There is a massive archive of information on here and most topics have been covered in detail, sometimes your questions are not covered specifically and starting your thread is perfectly ok, but please search prior to posting when ever possible.

- No Double Posting, yes, i know, sometimes we need and answer NOW>>>> or you have something exciting to share, but posting the same thing in multiple forum areas gets messy and spreads the information all over the place.. if you post something in the wrong section, PM a moderator and ask to have it moved, it's very easy to do and we don't mind at all.

- Like mother always said, if you can't say something nice !!.. This is a tough one, often we feel very passionate about something and speak our minds, we are all guility of this at some time or other, try to keep it positivive and respectull of other forum readers.. This has been given alot of slack in the past but will be getting enforced from now on.

There is a " Warn User " function that we will be testing out, ( see the red " ! " on the borrom of every post ) it allows members to flag posts they find offensive, moderators can warn a user and keep a log of someone's offending behavior, also allows users to report us Mods should you feel we are out of line. It's confidential, use it as you see fit. The usual 3 strikes and you'rrr out may apply here.

As everyone contributes we can edit this post as required until something reasonable comes about..

So.. have at it ! :mrgreen:
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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by knightmb » Mar 28, 2009 7:13 pm

I would like to see a rule about how to approach vendor problems. It's one thing to say "Vendor XYZ battery pack arrived in a weak box, the BMS board was cracked, etc." than "Vendor XYZ are THIEVES!!! They sent me a broken BMS ON PURPOSE!!".

I think problems with vendors, should stay with the vendors and if things can't be worked out, feel free to post up a "disappointed" review rather than try to start a flame war with them on the forum. I can see in the past where customers would come here just to complain about a vendor, so to avoid the forum from being used as a bad feelings dumping ground, I would like to see a rule that anything that has to do with vendor products that go beyond a review/discussion of something just not be allowed here in the first place. If discussions are started about the next best thing coming from the company or how well a product performs that's fine. I just really like to see less vendor bashing that seem to be nothing more than trying to embarrass the vendor or start a conflict in the middle of another topic.

If a vendor is doing bad, the reviews about it will speak for itself. No need to go the extra mile to thoroughly destroy the vendor you hate. :lol:

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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by dnmun » Mar 29, 2009 4:56 am

i commented on the 'defective cells in ping pack' thread about how people used a misleading header for the thread, which implied that the cells in the ping pack were defective, but it was just a problem with the charger not pushing enuff voltage. i still don't think those guys understood how it can affect a vendors reputation even when the vendor does everything to support their product and the thread header appears in a google search by someone considering a purchase. i don't think they meant to be malicious or to defame mr ping, they just thought initially that it was the pack. the thread owner coulda actually gone back and changed the title too once he realized what was wrong. but the google bot is here more than any of us so nothing escapes it.

when bob started his tirade against don, i felt he had fair grounds for his complaint because i think don promised and did not deliver. maybe bob shoulda used don's name specifically and not lifebatt, would that have been kosher? but the hostility to don from JD ended up driving steve away, in spite of efforts to prevent that very thing from happening when don posted up his new cell offering.

its one thing to not have don around, but jozzer added so much that his loss doesn't compensate for don getting banned, imo.

maybe there is a way to neuter particularly unbalanced thread titles, at the urging of the moderators, or other members so that the moderators don't get trashed for being heavy handed.

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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by paultrafalgar » Mar 29, 2009 5:56 am

dnmun wrote: ...
maybe there is a way to neuter particularly unbalanced thread titles, at the urging of the moderators, or other members so that the moderators don't get trashed for being heavy handed.
Couldn't these offensive/contentious threads just be moved to the cesspool after a certain period, or to another section marked, say Contention?
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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by swbluto » Mar 29, 2009 8:54 am

I think the best forum would be one with minimal policing. For sure, moderate spammers and other complete irrelevancies, but policing threads because of how "unbalanced" it is entirely subjective and in this forum system, usually upto the arbitration or influence of an arbitrary agent, which doesn't necessarily reflect the consensus view or even what I think is a more important objective view. I think the minimalism I've seen here in regards to some other places has made this a place that's been allowed to flourish to its current state with its diversity of participants.

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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by johnrobholmes » Mar 29, 2009 9:00 am

I think the key is to have self policing members, and members with respect for others. This forum has (had) more bickering and name calling than a forum I mod that is 10x larger, thanks to a very small handful of members.

What we are implementing is also a warning and infraction system for members that do not respect others. If you can't play nice, it is best that you do not play. Of course learning how to be nice is preferred, but some people just don't learn.
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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by Drunkskunk » Mar 29, 2009 1:14 pm

This isn't going to become one of those prissy, feelgood forums where we all sit around and hug each other, is it?
I like the gruff, roughneck feel of ES. But I agree Flames against other menbers for the sake of flaming someone doesn't belong here. On the other hand, if someone is being an idiot, they need to be told they are being an idiot. More often than not, it does some good.

I reserve the right to tell someone like Volcano Boy exactly what kind of whatard he is if they show up spouting off the way he used to. :twisted:

My general oppinion on rules is they only protect the weak, the meek, the lame, and the lazy. While those who go out and Do what needs to be done are restrained by them.
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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by johnrobholmes » Mar 29, 2009 1:56 pm

You can tell somebody that they are an idiot without being a rude idiot too. It just takes a bit more mental fortitude.
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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by John in CR » Mar 29, 2009 10:04 pm

My only beef is that over half of the pics aren't viewable from here in Costa Rica. I'm not sure why, but photobucket seems to be the single biggest offender. All I see much of the time is the word "image". My attitude is that if it's not viewable literally on the worldwide web, then it shouldn't be able to be posted. I'm sure the posters don't intend some kind of geographic censorship.

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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by swbluto » Mar 29, 2009 10:08 pm

John, I would look more at your ISP than us. :shock:

But I do think it courtesy to upload an image to a dedicated imaging site or as an attachment instead of direct linking from another forum. It seems direct links to images off rcgroups.com has been the biggest source of non-viewing problems in the non-hub motor section.

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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by ngocthach1130 » Mar 30, 2009 1:37 am

these rules aren't going to be enforce in the general discusssion areas right? It's kinda fun to read about other people's daily plight with ebiking and also fun to bitch about how some jackass tried to run you off the road that day.
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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by biohazardman » Mar 30, 2009 2:00 am

Ido moderation on another forum. Several of us take the time, and it does take time, to read the posts and edit or delete posts as well as warn the members when they are walking the line as well. We lock useful posts that are getting out of hand to retain good info and let folks cool down. Members will often help and e-mail us warnings if no one catches something right away.

Bad language that is any kind of cussing name-calling and inappropriate pics or links to such are deleted without warning. For sale items put on the main page, they belong on the classified pages, are also deleted. A few trolls, which always stir the pot, are banned now and then. For the most part things are good most of the time and we have a good reputation among air gunners for our politeness and willingness to help.

I would think that self-moderating with the three-strike method by three separate users with three different IP addresses might work ok. It's a hard decision but can be changed if things do not work out.
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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by TylerDurden » Mar 30, 2009 7:40 am

biohazardman wrote:I would think that self-moderating with the three-strike method by three separate users with three different IP addresses might work ok. It's a hard decision but can be changed if things do not work out.
Three-strikes is fine if the mods issue the three (or two) warnings to a member, based on consensus or parameters.

Having members forming cabals to stuff the ballot-box is like having the opposing team issue red-cards at a soccer/football match...
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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by Mr. Mik » Mar 30, 2009 8:08 am

On a world wide forum you can get three strikes in no time at all, for just trying to do the right thing!

But I am all for a real-time-democratic approach - like a voting system.

Like this:
If a post annoys you, you can click the "Vote down" button once or twice per post.
Once a certain percentage of readers of the post have voted "up" or "down", it gets displayed.

If a member gets consistently "up" or "down" votes then this could be shown or just posted in a pm.

There are many possible variations on this theme.
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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by knightmb » Mar 30, 2009 9:29 am

Mr. Mik wrote:On a world wide forum you can get three strikes in no time at all, for just trying to do the right thing!

But I am all for a real-time-democratic approach - like a voting system.

Like this:
If a post annoys you, you can click the "Vote down" button once or twice per post.
Once a certain percentage of readers of the post have voted "up" or "down", it gets displayed.

If a member gets consistently "up" or "down" votes then this could be shown or just posted in a pm.

There are many possible variations on this theme.
The current warning system allows us to attach notes to a warning, so unless someone is just trying to get warnings, there should be no reason to accumulate them so quickly. If someone gets a warning for posting stuff for sale in the tech discussion areas, then yes, technically, if they posted it 3 times, that might be 3 warnings, but the system isn't meant to be draconian in nature. At least that's not the way it will be used here.

When it comes to moderating forums, everything goes well until there is an issue. When the issue arises, we need tools to deal with it. Some people come here just to spam, so we don't even bother with a 3 warning system. The account is wiped and all post deleted immediately. Sometimes we have a language barrier and tempers flare, but overall, things will get settled. Finally we get people that just insist on making it hard for others. More than just hurling insults, but going that extra mile to make life hard for everyone.

Without some kind of rules in place, anyone can point out that such and such doesn't exist, so why should they be punished? If we try to write detailed rules about everything, we'll have the place over-run by rule lawyers. If we leave them general, then it gives me wiggle room for the mods. But overall, we need a way to present what the rules are and how to enforce them so there is no misunderstanding. If someone post spam and we wipe their account/posts, I don't want a giant discussion started about "is it fair to delete my spam?". If the rules says "no spam or your account is gone", then there is no need to debate about if it's fair or what exactly is spam.

This isn't an attack at your response either, it's great feedback. I just wanted to throw this point out there as well. :D

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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by Mathurin » Mar 30, 2009 9:40 pm

swbluto wrote:I think the best forum would be one with minimal policing. For sure, moderate spammers and other complete irrelevancies, but policing threads because of how "unbalanced" it is entirely subjective and in this forum system, usually upto the arbitration or influence of an arbitrary agent, which doesn't necessarily reflect the consensus view or even what I think is a more important objective view. I think the minimalism I've seen here in regards to some other places has made this a place that's been allowed to flourish to its current state with its diversity of participants.
Drunkskunk wrote:This isn't going to become one of those prissy, feelgood forums where we all sit around and hug each other, is it?
I like the gruff, roughneck feel of ES. But I agree Flames against other menbers for the sake of flaming someone doesn't belong here. On the other hand, if someone is being an idiot, they need to be told they are being an idiot. More often than not, it does some good.

I reserve the right to tell someone like Volcano Boy exactly what kind of whatard he is if they show up spouting off the way he used to. :twisted:

My general oppinion on rules is they only protect the weak, the meek, the lame, and the lazy. While those who go out and Do what needs to be done are restrained by them.
Sorta mostly kinda agree with these two, I think. Let me explain.

People are here because they found the place or someone told them about it. It really is a salon is says so right here, go ahead and look!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salon_(gathering)

This salon is where electric vehicle users, builders, industry types and our freinds exchange in a comfortable setting. It's operated by volunteers who donate lots of hard work, insight and generosity.

Regarding threads that get locked or pulled, people upon whom power has been bestowed do those things to try and herd the conversation in the right direction, they can't always right but it isn't up for debate either. These decisions are made all the time on forums, often for reasons that might not be obvious but are meaningful none the less. Its just editing... Life is what you leave out too. I'm not sure what the current rules are, but the first time I checked there were none at all, and the last time I checked there was so many that the Emperor's big capacitor seemed like a mouse's penis by comparaison. I'm not sure how this would do anything but stifle the mod's ability to moderate according to their jugement, as they see fit.

In the end, this salon is a work place friendly forum. I would only ask of people to honour this, and also to help support us with their original content, as well as by keeping the discussions lively.


Edit: Well, forums require moderation to remain useful any lenght of time, when editing happens, it's either done based on a person's jugement or on a rule. A person can think, but a rule is not so flexible. People occasionally frock up, but forums with strict rules that actually get applied feel like getting bashed with a stupid stick. Also, remember that a person who repeatedly make less appropriate edits can be thanked for their services.
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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by deronmoped » Apr 06, 2009 1:16 am

Maybe one way to take care of the problem with obnoxious posters is ban the posters with thin skin. :D

I'm constantly reading junk I do not care for on the internet. If I run into a post that is just name calling or whatever, I just cruise right along past it. Why bother reading it, if it's going to upset you? What did Forest Gump say? "Stupid is, what stupid does".

Is part of our job here to hold someones hand? How much responsibility does the complainer have in not reacting to something they do not like?

I always hated the cry babies in school growing up, running up to the teacher, so and so did this, not that I calling anyone here cry babies. :cry:

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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by swbluto » Apr 06, 2009 2:25 am

deronmoped wrote:I always hated the cry babies in school growing up, running up to the teacher, so and so did this, not that I calling anyone here cry babies. :cry:

Deron.
School Bully? :wink:

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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by deronmoped » Apr 10, 2009 2:19 am

swbluto wrote:
deronmoped wrote:I always hated the cry babies in school growing up, running up to the teacher, so and so did this, not that I calling anyone here cry babies. :cry:

Deron.
School Bully? :wink:
No, actually I was the one the bully picked on. I did not complain to the teacher, I went directly to the source of the problem and took him and a couple of rows of other kids out too. Seems my row of seats were welded together and so was his row of seats behind me. I did not bother to get up out of my chair to pummel him, I just went right over the back of it, taking my whole row with me which ended up in his row. After landing on him, his row went over too. I really did not look around too much to see what happened to the other students, I was too busy to do that.

Funny thing was, he wanted to be my best friend after that. And for some reason the other students that I knocked over did not have any complaints. :D

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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by Link » Apr 20, 2009 7:27 am

Mr. Mik wrote:Like this:
If a post annoys you, you can click the "Vote down" button once or twice per post.
Once a certain percentage of readers of the post have voted "up" or "down", it gets displayed.

If a member gets consistently "up" or "down" votes then this could be shown or just posted in a pm.
Ah, YouTube...

EDIT: Friggin' brackets...
Last edited by Link on Apr 20, 2009 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by nitecheck » Apr 20, 2009 9:17 am

Interesting...I like the forum as is. Although "flaming" is not good form on any forum - the "flammee" is that a word? May either block the user or simply ignore the taunts.

Debate is healthy & if ppl are afraid of getting booted on a 3 strikes policy - differences of opinion will be less than thought provoking...that said ...nasty personal attacks might be voted on by the forum members (like a poll) to decide if a strike applies or not. In effect the forum members have a part to play in what is acceptable & what is not...trial by peers.
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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by GCinDC » Apr 20, 2009 6:43 pm

I think it'd be great if there was a place for newbies... I ALWAYS search for stuff, and search for days but can't find what I want. All day today for example I've been looking for way to fix a cheap GM hall effect throttle that came off in my hand... I found lots of info and now have a magura on the way, but still... At the beginning I used to search for battery cases in the triangle. I found a lot, but nothing close to what I've run across since. What should I have searched on? "battery" "triangle" was what I tried, but it hardly gets 5% of what's on here... Is there another way to categorize things?

Anyway, maybe a place for newbies with more FAQ stuff or guides...

I still don't know when to post in another thread or a create new one.

BTW, can anyone point me to a thread about fixing cheap throttles... :D

that said, this site 'rules' and i don't know what i'd do w/o it. thanks!
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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by Zoot Katz » Apr 20, 2009 7:55 pm

I've said it before: Moderation often kills active Usenet groups. Moderation has probably killed lots of web based discussions too. Nobody wants to wait 24hrs. to see if their post has been "approved".
While I love and respect the wide open spaces of Usenet, face it, there's lots of drivel, vitriol, bile, sickness and OT rot I can do without if I'm searching for information. Calluses, Nomex, Kevlar, Teflon and kill filters might help the otherwise clueless. Even in the long established "Big 8" hierarchies, and disregarding the alt.* groups, the "discussion" can degenerate quickly owing to past histories unknown to the casual browser. The config* groups are worst.
Flaming is an art on Usenet. A good flame provides heat as well as light. A slight warming sometimes drives home the message even among the thickset. Stone cold church talk that's subtly insulting is the best flame, IMO.
(IIRC, I've posted two of those here in order to decline a pissing contest that's boring to anyone not involed. Shortest is better.)

It appears that things totally off the topic of "Electric Vehicle Technology" are permitted on ES in the General Discussion and Cess-Pool areas of the site, until they become insulting. The FAQ most clearly spells out the sole, AFAICT, verboten topic for public consumption: Disagreeing with a moderator. The weeding done by our moderators here is what keeps this place useful while remaining friendly and open.

I've said it before: Write for the reader and pretend your mother is reading it.
Let's all agree (hahaha) to keep it polite and pertinent without making the moderators work overtime for free.
By doing that it becomes our forum and true anarchy Rµl3Z.

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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by nicobie » Apr 21, 2009 12:23 pm

Zoot Katz wrote: By doing that it becomes our forum and true anarchy Rµl3Z.

Sounds good to me...
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Re: ES Rules - Have your say !

Post by Sheriff Jon » Apr 21, 2009 3:14 pm

Like most people I don't particularly like "rules", but every society or group of peoples has their own set of rules or guidelines that everyone in that group has to live by. Whether it is a Country, a political party, an outlaw biker club, or a message board, every group has their own set of rules. So having a listed set of site rules might be a good idea so that everybody KNOWS what is expected, and what is not acceptable.

The good news is, from what I can see most of the folks on here are polite and mature and this site is nearly self policing, in that the Moderators seldom have to.....Moderate. And when and if they do have to Moderate, they are fair, understanding and consistent.
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