AH Comparables

Joined
May 21, 2007
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17
I've been reading here that certain battery chemistries provide more usable energy than others -- maintain voltage down to lower discharge, I think...In searching for new batteries I'm wondering what capacity in other types would be equal to what I have now. I now have 3x12v12ah SLA. What would a comparable NiMh and Li be?(maybe different comparable for the different types of li?) In other words, if SLA is the base 1.0, what multiplier in terms of usable ah do you get from the other types of batteries?
 
GREAT question and may I add what role watt hours play in this scenario compared to amp hours.

For most of us, I believe, battery technology remains a mystery beyond general terms of SLA or flooded cells and the comprehension of nimh, nicad,lipo, lipo4, etc is Greek and we wish it to remain, mostly, that way.

Prices will be what they will be and I have found lots of web sites offering batteries yet I haven't found one with a comparison that the layman can understand. A chart with a 150 lb rider on any motor, any bike, at 20 mph can go how far? That's what we want to know. We don't care about charging anomalies, research and development, we're trained to "plug and play".

As important as batteries are to my bike, I spent time changing seven fuel filters, two oil filters (didn't change the oil) and R&R the primary fuel filters, changing the zincs (only the engine & generator) and have yet to replace a alternator to the generator though it did arrive yesterday. Tomorrow I have a full day planned and another afternoon doing more maintenance on the boat and trying to placate my wife on the honey do list and I'm retired, don't have a job and not looking for one.

I just don't have time or inclination to do the battery research and apparently neither does Mr. Jones. We simply want ypedal or someone to say, "Hey, this is what works, it costs this much and I can ship it today."

In the meantime I'll monitor my watts up and hope I can get home.

Mike
 
mvadventure said:
I just don't have time or inclination to do the battery research and apparently neither does Mr. Jones. We simply want ypedal or someone to say, "Hey, this is what works, it costs this much and I can ship it today."

Mike

Well.. this is how it works :

Copy and paste from a page i'm working on.

SLA - Sealed Lead Acid:

These batteries usually look like this ( picture of sla , vrla , flooded acid ) and are the heaviest of the them all, a good solution for the budget E-biker, are trouble free, tough, and they get the job done. Depending on how you treat them, expect between 200( average ) and 500 ( rare ) recharge cycles before you have to replace them, you MUST.. and i repeat this as it's very important YOU MUST RECHARGE THEM RIGHT AWAY anytime you use them.. never let them sit for hours on end ( or even worse.. days !! ) un-charged.. you must keep them fully charged at all times to expect a lot of life from them otherwise they will die pre-maturely and not get you very far.

Each battery is usually 12v each, are cube shaped, and can be connected together to become 12, 24, 36, 48, 60 or even 72v.

Depending on how far you need to go, you need to have enough capacity to go the distance, expect to have either 7 ah ( ah = Amp/Hour ) for short trips , or 12 ah for longer trips.

Charge time - 2 to 8 hrs depending on charger and how deeply they were discharged.

Nicad :

Do you have a cordless drill ? If you do, chances are it's powered with Nicad batteries. Lighter than SLA and smaller in size, Nicad batteries are the next step up and a very attractive option for many reasons.. They can be left partially charged without any negative impact , unlike SLA. Will go between 500 and 1000 recharge cycles before retirement.

These are usually shaped like your typical D or F sized battery ( AA's in your walkman.. C's in your tickle me Elmo. D's in your Mag-Light flashlight.. for example, and Yes.. F is an actually size !!!) and are connected together to make battery packs of different voltages.. they are 1.2v each. so 30 batteries together make a 36v pack !

You will want at least 8 ah of capacity for good measure, less than this is possible, but tends to be too great a stress for long life ( Look up " C-Rate " in the terms section to find out why )

Charge time - 1 to 3 hrs depending on charger used, and the size of the pack, usually 2 hrs from fully discharged !

Nimh :

Similar to Nicad in many respects, slightly lighter for the same capacity, but smaller in size. Better for the environment, but will not provide as many recharge cycles as Nicad. ( Confused yet ? )

Expect 300 to 600 cycles depending on how you treat them. Can be left partially or fully charged, they do not suffer the " Memory Effect " , and also come in D or F size, and are 1.2v each.

Costs more than Nicad, but is better for the environment, 2/3 the size of Nicad makes it a good candidate when you don't have a lot of room to spare ( 72v ! )



Lithium ! :

The holey grail of E-bikes, expensive.. light weight.. compact. Expensive.

If you want the Ultimate, Lithium is the key, not for everyone, but if you are serious about long range, high-performance, Light-weight, ( Off-Road ! ) etc ! It can be done !..

Lithium-Polymer and Lithium-Ion are made in various shapes and sizes..

Typically Li-Ion is what you find in a laptop computer, slightly taller than a AA battery, they are 3v each instead of 1v like Nimh and Nicad. And Li-Po is what you find in your cell phone, comes in a rectangular shape of many different sizes.

In small size, Lithium cells are not very dangerous, but for powering an E-bike a much larger pack is required.. Your cell phone may have 1000 mah 3.9v.. An E-bike will have 10,000mah at 36v !!! ( Think fire cracker vs stick of Dynomite ! )

This means you have a number of batteries connected together to form a larger pack.. Recharging a Lithium pack requires special care. Safety Circuitry that monitors maximum and minimum voltage.. and balance of every cell is a must. ( This is called a BMS )

Only in the last year or so have I been able to find sources for Lithium Polymer packs that I would be comfortable strapping to my bike safely. This is the cutting edge of technology and holds great promise, but please play safe ! Do your research.. ask questions.. before you buy !
 
Now.. the original question...

A 12ah battery.. can technically deliver 12ah if you discharge it over 20 hours ( very slowly... )

If you try to suck back the power quickly.. it will suffer the dreaded " Peukert " effect.

Example using Beer : If you pour a beer verrrry slowly for 20 hours.. into a glass.. you get almost no foam.. but warm tasty beer...

If however.. you are darn thirsty and you shake that sucker upside down to hurry it up and get it into the glass.. you get a whole lot of foam and not much beer.... aka: Peukert effect.

A 12ah battery, at a rate of 20amps will fall flat at roughly 6 to 8ah, the quality and various other factors like temperature... age.. etc.. will make this number go up or down.. so YMMV..
 
Ypedal said:
A 12ah battery, at a rate of 20amps will fall flat at roughly 6 to 8ah, the quality and various other factors like temperature... age.. etc.. will make this number go up or down.. so YMMV..

Gotcha -- so usable ah for an SLA battery are roughly 50% of rated capacity at e-bike drain rates.

So, now to get the multipliers...what are the comparable % for NiMh and the various Li batteries?
 
Answering your question accurately is extreemely difficult as there are so many variables involved it's almost impossible..

About the " Buy this and it will work " part.. ouf... what works for me may not work for you.. so again, not easy.. i'm in the testing phase of all this.. well into it.. but i have not killed any packs yet so cycle life is still hard to nail down.. too much BS out there from vendors who do not know what they have, so i'm doing my own testing, these things take time unfortunately. :wink:
 
He he, well I just don't have the money or time to buy all the different battery types to really test them myself under real-world conditions...But, I've heard people say things like, "You can discharge battery type X more than Y so if you go with X an 8ah battery should be OK..." and was hoping to get some kind of numbers to use for comparison. I'm not looking for Xah = Y miles. I'm looking for Xah of SLA = Yah of Li, for example.

Price is easy enough to see and all the batteries have an ah listed (regardless of how accurate it is from one source vs. another). Some kind of rough guide as to ah multiplier for different chemistries would allow at least a ballpark comparison of usable energy/price from one type of battery to another. Maybe wh is better comparison that ah? Meh, maybe it is futile and there are too many variables to make any comparison that simple.
 
I'm looking for Xah of SLA = Yah of Li, for example.

For ebike applications under average use conditions, X ah of Li = 1.5 X ah of SLA.

How was that? :)
 
xyster said:
I'm looking for Xah of SLA = Yah of Li, for example.

For ebike applications under average use conditions, X ah of Li = 1.5 X ah of SLA.

How was that? :)

That's great! So an 8ah Li battery should give me roughly the same capacity as my current 12ah SLA (your mileage may vary, etc. disclaimer applies).

Is NiMh roughly 1:1 with SLA?
 
AliasMrJones said:
That's great! So an 8ah Li battery should give me roughly the same capacity as my current 12ah SLA (your mileage may vary, etc. disclaimer applies).

Yes.

Is NiMh roughly 1:1 with SLA?

No. Ebike Nimh and Nicad are pretty much 1:1 with lithium so far as AH ratings.

Lithium's main attraction is it's lower weight compared to NiMH/Nicad, and of course SLA. For the same capacity, Lithium is about 1/2 the weight of NiMh, 1/3rd the weight of Nicad, and 1/4 the weight of SLA.
 
http://www.powerstream.com/NiMHP.htm


The following comparison tests were done with a 24 volt "Amplifier" electric scooter:

........................... Lead Acid......... NiMH..................... Improvement
Battery Format... 2 x 12V SLA...... 20 x 1.2V D cells
Rated Capacity... 8 AH................. 8.5 AH
Battery Mass...... 5.5 kg (12 lb)... 3.4 kg (7.5 lb)....... 40 % lighter
Battery Size....... 12x2.6x3.7 in... 10.2x2.4x3.6 in..... 24% less volume
Max op current... 29.8 Amps....... 30.1 Amps
Av op Current..... 11.1 Amps....... 10.6 Amps
Total run time..... 27 minutes...... 46 minutes............ 70% longer


Price................... $60.................. $150...................... 2.5X more expensive
Cycle Life............ 250.................. 500........................ 2X+ more cycles
 
SLAs discharged at such a high rate probably won't go anywhere near 250 cycles though, which makes NiMH that much more attractive. Now let's assume the cycle count is 2x more, which would make the actual operational time 3.4x greater for NiMH. All of a sudden 2.5x the cost looks like a bargain.
 
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