"Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS...

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by Gregb » Jun 30 2011 11:44pm

On the question of suitable chargers: while there are too many brands available to recommend would it be possible to list basic requirements? eg is basic transformer bridge rectifier (SLA) type suitable ? Is a switch mode better?
should it be CC/CV capable ?; point at which changeover should best occur; charge current capability ; Max voltage. whether max/min should be adjustable. and any other points you feel are relevant or worthwhile,,,...
This could possibly be included in the new page for the board.
Greg

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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by fechter » Jul 01 2011 8:07am

Most any charger that has current limiting and an adjustable output voltage should work. You can run into problems if the charger is 'smart' and wants to shut down when the charge current drops during HVC throttling. CC-CV 'dumb' power supplies like the Meanwell are ideal. Most lead-acid chargers will also work.

The behavior of a particular charger may be hard to tell without acutal testing as the software varies widely.
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by Gregb » Jul 04 2011 12:30am

Has anybody managed to get this working? I am going to cut my losses of $200.00 and bin it. It is far too susceptible to static damage and the design of the board makes it impossible to remove components without breaking them. I think it will work as designed but I don't think it is suitable for amateur construction and I am no amateur. Seeing that I have paid for it I may try and redesign the board for my personal use. This will not be for sale or even giving away. They have put the hard yards in and it is their creation. For now I will just continue with my bulk charger and occasionally rebalance one cell at a time.
Best of luck to you all..

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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by Lessss » Jul 04 2011 2:21pm

Zephyr bms looking for website to buy. ttpacks sems to be dead. Is there a replacement site?
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by Gregb » Jul 04 2011 4:29pm

Gary is working on it. see earlier post this thread. he only sells board and instructions. You build.

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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by fechter » Jul 04 2011 7:47pm

Gregb wrote:Has anybody managed to get this working? ..
Yes, Andyh and Gary have working versions of it. It is definitely not a good beginner project and requires a fair amount of soldering skill.

We are moving ahead with trying to get a pre-built surface mount version of it going. I hate building those things as much as anybody. It's a lot of little parts.
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by deVries » Jul 04 2011 9:59pm

fechter wrote:
Gregb wrote:Has anybody managed to get this working? ..
Yes, Andy and Gary have working versions of it. It is definitely not a good beginner project and requires a fair amount of soldering skill.

We are moving ahead with trying to get a pre-built surface mount version of it going. I hate building those things as much as anybody. It's a lot of little parts.
I know Geoff was interested at one time in helping to do the SM version of these, but you were upgrading the design too often last year.

If you do a SM version I hope it will still be possible to do that mod you mentioned to allow for different LVC settings to be used? :?:

I'll finally be in the market for these this year or next, so I'm lucky you've got a design you're finally happy with. It really has been a work of determined effort over years of development, so you guys really deserve our admiration & appreciation for your contribution to ES.

Thanks! 8)

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Post by Zenid » Jul 04 2011 10:15pm

Following Richard's instructions I've managed to figure out and repair the problem. :D

To eliminate Q1 as a suspect, I lifted the bottom (source) leg on Q1 and measured voltages with it detached from the board, I got the expected 12V or so, so I put the leg back again. I also had the expected readings of 14V and 80V on the top (g) and middle (d) pins respectively.

This meant that it had to be something further 'downstream', and that I should look at U1, U2, and U3 next. Richard suggested snipping the source pins to each of these chips in turn to see what made the short go away, once there was no longer continuity between the ground and the 12V rail, then that should be my culprit.

First I went to U1 and cut pin 8. It made no difference: I was still measuring 0Ω across the charger input ground and the 12V rail. So next I cut pin 6 on U3 (the source for U3 and U2) and this did it! I no longer showed a short across GND and the 12V rail.

By luck, I had a spare U3 chip left over from my Mouser order, as the board had already come fitted with U2 (this was part of fixing a 'bug' in this version of the board), leaving me with one left over (U2 and U3 use the same chip). So I carefully removed the one on the board and replaced it with a socket. Richard suggested using sockets for these chips to make replacement easier, as replacing the chips is quite tedious and time consuming.

Image
U3 now sits in a socket

Obviously there was still the matter of the snipped pin on U1: For this, I just bent the snipped ends back together again and used a blob of solder to effect a repair. This done, I fired it all back up again - through the light-bulb at first - and I had my little green LED back again :) It's all now up and running again, charging as it did before.

Image

Thanks a lot to Richard and Gary for being so patient in helping me troubleshoot and fix this! It's been frustrating for everyone, but at least we have a basic troubleshooting path for figuring things like this out. I think the biggest lesson to come out of this is to use sockets for U1, U2, and U3, as this would have made figuring this out and fixing it so much easier. Perhaps three sockets should be added to the parts list, and the next version of the instructions amended to recommend that these chips be unpluggable in this way, as that could greatly simplify troubleshooting!

As for how U3 go damaged in this way - I think Richard mentioned that U3 might be prone to damage from static from the EOC jumper, and when I was trying to get the EOC cut-off to function I did a lot of fiddling with that jumper, often just shorting it with a screwdriver end as I tried to figure out what was going on, perhaps that's what killed it off...

Incidentally, I am still back at this original issue, which is that the whole thing only seems to work with the EOC jumper on. Any thoughts on what could be going on here would be appreciated, as it needs to be able to turn itself off once it's done...
Last edited by Zenid on Jul 06 2011 5:07am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by fechter » Jul 05 2011 8:10am

OK, good work there. It was challenging to come up with testing and troubleshooting procedures that did not involve any speciallized test equipment. Light bulb and a voltmeter can get you pretty far.

NOW you officially earn the coveted guinea pig award!
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by Zenid » Jul 06 2011 12:39am

fechter wrote:OK, good work there. It was challenging to come up with testing and troubleshooting procedures that did not involve any speciallized test equipment. Light bulb and a voltmeter can get you pretty far.

NOW you officially earn the coveted guinea pig award!
LOL. Thank you! I shall treasure it...

How that guy looks is pretty much how I've felt this last couple of weeks. :lol:

It's really important to have these low-tech troubleshooting paths, otherwise less experienced hobbyists without lots of posh equipment are going to be put off for fear of being sent up the creek without a paddle if things go wrong.

I'll let you know how the EOC goes once I've fixed that pot.
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by mj2412 » Jul 06 2011 3:23am

Hi, i'm soldering the Zephyr already and have a general question about the connection of the balance cables in my 6p24s setup. I am going to build a balance cable setup, identically to a 6p parallel charging harness and to solder the cables directly to the board. But then i note the manual statementabout the importance of connection the balance leads at one time to the battery pack. I try to reduce the connections to a minimum. Therefore i don't like the idea of an additional connector.
Can i go further with my initial idea or is the additional connector important?
Thanks.

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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by fechter » Jul 06 2011 11:28am

The only reason I recommend a connector there is to eliminate any drain for long term storage. If you fully charge the pack before an extended period of non-use, it should be good for at least 6 months. Periodic recharging during storage should prevent any problems.

Be sure to make all pack connections with the charger completely disconnected from the board.
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by steveo » Jul 10 2011 2:09am

Hey everyone,

I've just completed my bms board and am not having any luck with the shunt lights for each channel lighting up.

i'm 100% that the shunt leds are installed correctly!


I've gotten the main led to go from red to green no problem by adjusting the pot

have i got something installed incorrectly somewhere ?

any help or tests i can try would be great...

i've tried adjusting voltage higher or lower ... and still no luck with the shunt leds turning on... also the bms is not enabling the batteries to be charged at all

thanks
-steveo
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Repair Thread
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=27170
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by fechter » Jul 10 2011 11:08am

Nice looking build.

You can test the cell circuits individually with a current limited power supply. Feed voltage to the tap wires and dial it up slowly while watching the current. If your power supply doesn't have enough voltage to run all the channels, do a few at a time for testing.

If you don't have a bench power supply, you can use a light bulb in series with a Meanwell as a current limited supply.

I strongly recommend doing initial testing with no cells attached. With no cells attached, there is no charge current and the EOC detection will kick in and terminate the charge. Remove the jumper to disable EOC for this test.
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by steveo » Jul 10 2011 5:57pm

fechter wrote:Nice looking build.

You can test the cell circuits individually with a current limited power supply. Feed voltage to the tap wires and dial it up slowly while watching the current. If your power supply doesn't have enough voltage to run all the channels, do a few at a time for testing.

If you don't have a bench power supply, you can use a light bulb in series with a Meanwell as a current limited supply.

I strongly recommend doing initial testing with no cells attached. With no cells attached, there is no charge current and the EOC detection will kick in and terminate the charge. Remove the jumper to disable EOC for this test.
Hey fechter

do you mean power the bms via the balancing wire tabs?... for example ... i can try to use a 30v power supply that has the current limiter board on it ... and power say ... 8channels.... slowly bring up the voltage with current low say 1-2 amps and the leds should light up once each channel see about 4.2v?

to confirm .... i place power to the most negative balance wire tab, and the most positive for the 8th cell on the balance tab ... is this correct..

so to be clear i only apply power from balance tab only to test channels?

if you have any photos ... or some paint skills to illustrate that would be appreciated...

thanks

-steveo
Repair Thread
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=27170
Hub Monster bike ~ 24s7p A123 15.4ah/18kv Six Phase Motor/Dual Max-E Adapttos/32kw~42.91Hp/Est 140LBS
X6 Kmx Trike ~ 24s4p 20ah/X6 MHM 602/Infinion EB324 IRFB 4110/20Kw~26.82Hp/Est 120LBS ~SOLD~
Lightening rods bike ~ 18s2p 10ah/1500w Inrunner/Infinion EB312 IRFB4110/2KW~2.68hp/Est 60LBS
EV Outboard ~ 12s8p 40ah/5KW GM Inrunner/Infinion EB324 IRFB 4110/18Hp Evinrude Drive/Est 100lbs
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by fechter » Jul 10 2011 10:50pm

steveo wrote: do you mean power the bms via the balancing wire tabs?... for example ... i can try to use a 30v power supply that has the current limiter board on it ... and power say ... 8channels.... slowly bring up the voltage with current low say 1-2 amps and the leds should light up once each channel see about 4.2v?

to confirm .... i place power to the most negative balance wire tab, and the most positive for the 8th cell on the balance tab ... is this correct..

so to be clear i only apply power from balance tab only to test channels?

if you have any photos ... or some paint skills to illustrate that would be appreciated...

thanks

-steveo
Yes, correct. Bypass the control circuit altogether this way. You can do good tesing at 100mA. I would not go over 500mA for testing. This is just to test the cell circuits.

Yes, I need to revise the testing instuctions badly. It's way too complicated right now and needs better diagrams. It's on the to-do list.
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by steveo » Jul 12 2011 12:21am

Ive done the testing best i could with my charger set at 100mah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v73K6OrJ8AE

Any further tests?

Thanks for your help!
-steveo
Repair Thread
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=27170
Hub Monster bike ~ 24s7p A123 15.4ah/18kv Six Phase Motor/Dual Max-E Adapttos/32kw~42.91Hp/Est 140LBS
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Lightening rods bike ~ 18s2p 10ah/1500w Inrunner/Infinion EB312 IRFB4110/2KW~2.68hp/Est 60LBS
EV Outboard ~ 12s8p 40ah/5KW GM Inrunner/Infinion EB324 IRFB 4110/18Hp Evinrude Drive/Est 100lbs
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by mj2412 » Jul 12 2011 3:13am

Hello, i'm next to finish the assembling of the board, but yesterday i recognized the resistor R15 with 1k and R14 with 100 Ohm on the board. But in the BOM is only R14 with 1k. Should i get a 100 Ohm resistor for R14 on the board? Furthermore the electric schematic of the charger control in my instructions is wrong. After charger conection should be first the fuse and then the diode. On the board is first the fuse and then the diode.
I hope i get finished this week and can start next week with testing.

Thanks Martin

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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by Gregb » Jul 12 2011 6:03am

I don't have an r15 where is it ?? but r14 is 1K. don't worry about the fuse drawing. been mentioned before.

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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by mj2412 » Jul 12 2011 6:58am

Hello GregB,
when you look at the very first picture of the board in this thread you can see R15 at the throttle connection (down left) with 1k and R14 with 100 Ohm (in the middle of the charge control board). I soldered the 1k resistor in the r15 place and then searched for the 100 Ohm resistor for R14. Now i have at least one 1k Ohm or 100 Ohm resistor missing.

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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by steveo » Jul 12 2011 8:08am

mj2412 wrote:Hello GregB,
when you look at the very first picture of the board in this thread you can see R15 at the throttle connection (down left) with 1k and R14 with 100 Ohm (in the middle of the charge control board). I soldered the 1k resistor in the r15 place and then searched for the 100 Ohm resistor for R14. Now i have at least one 1k Ohm or 100 Ohm resistor missing.
i believe there is a typo on the pcb board


r14 shows as 1k; however it should be 100ohms

r15 is 1k

-steveo
Repair Thread
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=27170
Hub Monster bike ~ 24s7p A123 15.4ah/18kv Six Phase Motor/Dual Max-E Adapttos/32kw~42.91Hp/Est 140LBS
X6 Kmx Trike ~ 24s4p 20ah/X6 MHM 602/Infinion EB324 IRFB 4110/20Kw~26.82Hp/Est 120LBS ~SOLD~
Lightening rods bike ~ 18s2p 10ah/1500w Inrunner/Infinion EB312 IRFB4110/2KW~2.68hp/Est 60LBS
EV Outboard ~ 12s8p 40ah/5KW GM Inrunner/Infinion EB324 IRFB 4110/18Hp Evinrude Drive/Est 100lbs
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by fechter » Jul 12 2011 8:11am

R14 (going to the main FET gate) should be 100 ohms.
R15 (throttle interface) should be 1k.

Yes, the schematic is wrong in the fuse area. I'll send you the corrected version.

My layout file for the board shows R14 marked 100. I'm not sure how that got messed up.
What version number is printed on your board?
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by mj2412 » Jul 12 2011 9:19am

I will check the version back home (The board layout looks like the actual one at the first page). But with R14 100Ohm and R15 1k Ohm the board is right. The mistake is in the BOM, because R15 and R14 are messed up.

I will get a 100 Ohm resistor and solder it into the R14 place.

Thanks for all the help.

Martin

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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by steveo » Jul 12 2011 9:24am

fechter wrote:R14 (going to the main FET gate) should be 100 ohms.
R15 (throttle interface) should be 1k.

Yes, the schematic is wrong in the fuse area. I'll send you the corrected version.

My layout file for the board shows R14 marked 100. I'm not sure how that got messed up.
What version number is printed on your board?
mine is 4.4.3 which i believe is the most current version

i also noticed another typo somewhere in the channels where the resistors where... i think instead of 220ohms if was like 470ohms

-steveo
Repair Thread
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=27170
Hub Monster bike ~ 24s7p A123 15.4ah/18kv Six Phase Motor/Dual Max-E Adapttos/32kw~42.91Hp/Est 140LBS
X6 Kmx Trike ~ 24s4p 20ah/X6 MHM 602/Infinion EB324 IRFB 4110/20Kw~26.82Hp/Est 120LBS ~SOLD~
Lightening rods bike ~ 18s2p 10ah/1500w Inrunner/Infinion EB312 IRFB4110/2KW~2.68hp/Est 60LBS
EV Outboard ~ 12s8p 40ah/5KW GM Inrunner/Infinion EB324 IRFB 4110/18Hp Evinrude Drive/Est 100lbs
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Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Post by Farfle » Jul 12 2011 8:55pm

Any idea when these will be available? Or if anyone has one unassembled/unused?
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