"Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS...

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby SlyCayer » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:24 pm

Hey guys, any news on the new version?
http://www.JCCayer.com Where you can find tools and Dewalt(A123) batteries.
SlyCayer
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:24 am
Location: Limoges, Ontario

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby dfar » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:10 pm

I am also anxiously awaiting news of the Zephyr BMS.
dfar
1 W
1 W
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:43 pm

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby chroot » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:05 pm

... bump
Thank you Justin Lemire-Elmore - You are a HERO!

Tidalforce, Yuba Mundo V4 Cargo bike, Juiced Riders ODK V1 Cargo bike
English is my secondary language - ASL (American Sign Language) is my primary.
chroot
1 MW
1 MW
 
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:03 pm

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby SlyCayer » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:25 pm

Hmmm, this looks completely dead or it's only me? :D.
http://www.JCCayer.com Where you can find tools and Dewalt(A123) batteries.
SlyCayer
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:24 am
Location: Limoges, Ontario

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby fechter » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:10 am

Sorry guys....

I'll try to at least get you an update on what's going on.
Basically both of our wives have prohibited us from working on the project anymore after wasting so much time and money with little hope of recovering it.

I'm literally working 3 jobs right now to make ends meet with 3 kids in college. I don't have lots of spare time these days.

I'm trying to work out some kind of alternate plan since the design seems to be finally worked out. It would be a shame to put so much into the thing and let it die at this stage.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
User avatar
fechter
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 9985
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby dnmun » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:18 am

don't be sorry, not for the tourists anyway.

you and gary did a great thing, i still think this is the best thing to come out of the sphere. a lotta people know how much you guys have done.

so elegant and capable design, i was amazed you guys could devote as much time to it as you did.

really, you cannot imagine how the work you have done over the years has inspired me to learn some electronics finally in my old age. from the original hacking of the C'lyte controller, the puma/infineon solution and all the time you guys devoted to making the premier BMS solution. not once but twice, and all of it open source.

you guys should be proud. not sorry.

maybe some of the tourists will finally wake up and start studying electronics enuff to help out instead of whelping.
dnmun
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 13164
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:32 pm
Location: portland, or and loveland, co

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby megacycle » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:04 am

I'm fairly a newbie, with no cred here, but If the membership could send you a dollar or more 10K+.
Need to have a whip round to get you home.
Iron Horse SGS Pro DH.
72V 16AH lipo. 3kW charging system.
Modded Crystalyte 72V/50A, regen, 3 stage overcurrent.
4060 ☆/\, 20mm cover holes.
Hyena supplied motor (much appreciated Onya mate)
Gokart A123 20Ah, 72V, PM72301, Mars motor.
User avatar
megacycle
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:41 am
Location: South Australia

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby chroot » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:54 am

... RIP Zephyr... :-(

Otherwise I understood your situation.
chroot
1 MW
1 MW
 
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:03 pm

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby fechter » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:58 pm

chroot wrote:... RIP Zephyr... :-(

Otherwise I understood your situation.


Not quite dead yet, just sleeping. :wink:
If I could find a source of funding, I could possibly get some bare boards made.
They won't be cheap though.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
User avatar
fechter
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 9985
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby Alan B » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:21 pm

PC Boards $5 per square inch for three boards:

http://dorkbotpdx.org/wiki/pcb_order
-- Alan W6AKB eESP, GreyBorg, eBikeE BMC, myEbikes, ezPCBs and Thanks to ebikes.ca for rescuing this forum!
User avatar
Alan B
10 GW
10 GW
 
Posts: 4502
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:43 am
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, USA

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby megacycle » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:28 pm

The ES fund donation area should be for helping innovation like this :idea: :?: :?:
Is there anyway of funding this idea on mass :?:
Who personally is gonna miss a few dollars, can't understand it :?.
Iron Horse SGS Pro DH.
72V 16AH lipo. 3kW charging system.
Modded Crystalyte 72V/50A, regen, 3 stage overcurrent.
4060 ☆/\, 20mm cover holes.
Hyena supplied motor (much appreciated Onya mate)
Gokart A123 20Ah, 72V, PM72301, Mars motor.
User avatar
megacycle
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:41 am
Location: South Australia

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby SlyCayer » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:52 pm

dnmun wrote:help out instead of whelping.


Don't get me wrong, my last post was not to whelp, but I was only noticing, I adore these guys for everything they have done, if I would be in a better financial position myself, I would certainly pay for the boards to be manufactured...
http://www.JCCayer.com Where you can find tools and Dewalt(A123) batteries.
SlyCayer
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:24 am
Location: Limoges, Ontario

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby fechter » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:25 pm

Alan B wrote:PC Boards $5 per square inch for three boards:

http://dorkbotpdx.org/wiki/pcb_order


That looks interesting. It might be a little cheaper than ExpressPCB, but looks a lot more complicated for me to get an order in, as all my layout files are in ExpressPCB format, not Eagle or Gerber.

I took donations in the past and burned through all of it without a lot to show. I really didn't feel good about this, especially since the end goal was for me to make some money, even it it's like minimum wage.

If you compare what a Zephyr board does to something like Method's HVC/LVC boards and the pricing per cell, I'd have to charge quite a bit for it to be comparable (for fully built boards). There's no way I'd have time to build these, so at best I'd be able to offer bare boards with a parts ordering list and some instructions.

In the past there were some people who built up the boards and offered fully built units. If you're organized and have reasonable soldering skills, it could probably be done fairly efficiently wth some practice, but there is still quite a bit of labor to fit the box, heat sinks, packaging, shipping, bookkeeping etc., so the labor cost would still be high. Could be a good side job for someone with the right skills.

I'll have to try and come up with a cost estimate for bare boards. This will have to be the actual board cost plus quite a bit extra to go toward repaying the immense development cost.
But one of my main objectives is always to make products that not only work but are affordable enough to be widely adopted. Any bozo can build a fancy BMS for $1,000. That's not what I want to do.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
User avatar
fechter
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 9985
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby megacycle » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:02 pm

Would'nt feel bad about burning through supporters dough if your putting all that effort in.
Especially now you guys are near a completion.

Some people we know get a lot for doing next to nothing.
Iron Horse SGS Pro DH.
72V 16AH lipo. 3kW charging system.
Modded Crystalyte 72V/50A, regen, 3 stage overcurrent.
4060 ☆/\, 20mm cover holes.
Hyena supplied motor (much appreciated Onya mate)
Gokart A123 20Ah, 72V, PM72301, Mars motor.
User avatar
megacycle
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 858
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:41 am
Location: South Australia

PCBoard Options

Postby Alan B » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:18 am

ExpressPCB is nice for their easy to learn software and their 2.5 by 3.8 inch low cost miniboard (which is still almost $7 per square inch for three boards with no silkscreen or solder mask, so not a bargain but it is delivered fast). I have made many of those and a few commercial boards of other sizes from ExpressPCB. But their pricing is much too high for what you're trying to do. And to get their prices down you have to order way too many boards for a small operation, and they never get reasonable at any quantity.

It does require learning another software package, but using other services like BatchPCB or dorkbotpdx for cheap but slow prototypes (or expressPCB for expensive but fast prototypes), and then get panels from goldphoenixpcb.com at 155 square inches for $110 each so less than $1 per square inch. No need to buy 100 boards and invest big bucks. Buy one panel at a time.

I've tried several packages and not been happy (Kicad, Eagle, FreePCB). Diptrace is next on my list and has a lot of good reviews. ExpressPCB is nice but pretty weak and keeps your design from being moved to a better package and a better PCB supply place.

BatchPCB has an interesting feature in that you can put your PCB design up for "sale" there. Folks can log in and have some boards made for them, get the fairly low BatchPCB pricing, and you can get a royalty on it. So you don't even have to handle the boards. Just register them and advertise your designs with a link so folks can get them made. It might be good to make boards a panel at a time to start, and when demand slows down or you get tired of it put it in batchpcb so folks can still get it even when you don't have any left, and the design stays available after you move on to other projects.
-- Alan W6AKB eESP, GreyBorg, eBikeE BMC, myEbikes, ezPCBs and Thanks to ebikes.ca for rescuing this forum!
User avatar
Alan B
10 GW
10 GW
 
Posts: 4502
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:43 am
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, USA

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby fechter » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:30 pm

I wouldn't mind learing a new software, especially if it can generate industry standard files for making boards.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
User avatar
fechter
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 9985
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby Alan B » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:21 pm

Both Eagle and Diptrace generate industry standard files.
-- Alan W6AKB eESP, GreyBorg, eBikeE BMC, myEbikes, ezPCBs and Thanks to ebikes.ca for rescuing this forum!
User avatar
Alan B
10 GW
10 GW
 
Posts: 4502
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:43 am
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, USA

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby fechter » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:24 pm

I see Diptrace has a free trial. For a paid version, I'm not sure what my pin count would be. For a large-ish panel, the pin count could be mighty high. I can probably estimate it.

I might be able to score an educational version of Eagle. I think it may be too limited though.

If I used a limited version of the software to make one board, the panel would be just copy/paste of the individual boards. Possibly I could get someone with a full version of the software to do the copy/paste part for me (with no pin count limitation). :idea:
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
User avatar
fechter
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 9985
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby Alan B » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:51 am

I believe there is a free version of Eagle as well. Both products have a free trial, or a free version limited to pin count or board size, but enough to learn the package and decide whether to buy it or not.

Gold Phoenix will step and repeat for you, as I understand it, so you just have to do one board.

If you have friends that will help you with one program or the other that might be a good reason to start with that package first and see if you like it.
-- Alan W6AKB eESP, GreyBorg, eBikeE BMC, myEbikes, ezPCBs and Thanks to ebikes.ca for rescuing this forum!
User avatar
Alan B
10 GW
10 GW
 
Posts: 4502
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:43 am
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, USA

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby adrian_sm » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:01 am

Free version of Eagle is limited to 100x80mm 2 sides. So probably too small for doing your actual boards.
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/downloads/freeware/

And if you are doing these for profit, you would have to get the Standard version. Pricing here:
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/shop/pricing/?language=en
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms
User avatar
adrian_sm
100 MW
100 MW
 
Posts: 2641
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:54 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby Alan B » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:09 am

I posted info on the pricing and links, but it was in another thread. :(

For commercial use Diptrace is cheaper than Eagle.
-- Alan W6AKB eESP, GreyBorg, eBikeE BMC, myEbikes, ezPCBs and Thanks to ebikes.ca for rescuing this forum!
User avatar
Alan B
10 GW
10 GW
 
Posts: 4502
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:43 am
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, USA

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby SlyCayer » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:36 am

I can get that software full for free, I sent you a PM Fechter.
http://www.JCCayer.com Where you can find tools and Dewalt(A123) batteries.
SlyCayer
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:24 am
Location: Limoges, Ontario

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby scriewy » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:16 am

what what, dramatic nooooooooooo........

i remember the version 2.x were performing ok, all through hole parts, and ver 4.x with through hole parts with extra features that gary tested turned out ok, but i never saw anywhere what's an actual price of 2.x or 4.x BMS's, or the BOM price for 2.x or 4.x, so what was the estimated tag you thought to put if the boards were in production manually assembled ? (as this was the main reason to try transferring to SMT, too much labor with through hole)

any 1 remember top of their head BOM price to assemble 2.x or 4.x ? i followed a lot this thread but i totally don't remember at what page the BOM's were mentioned.

any ways how many people are interested in this great boardy ? now is the time to practice the "power of many" or "the change starts with you", i can spare 10$ a month without expecting for a time frame or anything in return for next 6 month unless i die or kidnapped by aliens (i don't mean that after 6 months i expect for anything, it's just a period i can spare), i know it's not much and though my relative salary is pretty ok avg around 1300$ full time, problem is most of it covers rent and bills, and 10$ is something that wont take me to the grave.

my 10$ alone is didly squat, but 100 members and that's something to work with.
it's a pitty i wont stay to see the world crumble, u jedi Scum

clyte 405,
went through battle, bloody resurected Dewalts 4x28v 2s2p usable 2.7ah, 52v drops to 44v at 54kmh
78v 2ah Vdrop to 58v at max 66kmh.
72kg rider + 23kg bike.
keywin 20a 30-70v mod to 6 4110 as methods advised for noobs, shunted 38a
clyte 24-72v 40a mod 4310 to 4110, shunted to 77a
17.5.11 - 5000km
at 78v 4ah 72.7kmh Vdrop to 68v
10.11 - 82.1kmh
30.8.12-17000km

a place for lasers as ES is for e-vehicles - laserpointerforums.com
scriewy
100 W
100 W
 
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:37 am
Location: tel aviv, israel

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby fechter » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:50 pm

It's not dead, it's just sleeping.
(picture parrot)

I haven't had time lately to deal with this, but I'm sure there's a way to bring it alive again.
I DO have Eagle running. There's a learning curve. ExpressPCB is still an option.

Building a board with this many parts is a major pain and not many people want to do it. Fully built boards would have a much larger market but is a huge investment. Before that, more of a track record needs to be established with the hand built version.

Pricing will have to include a fairly large chunk for paying back development costs. Even at that, there is little to no economic incentive to the project. We'd have to sell hundreds of them just to break even.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
User avatar
fechter
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 9985
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:23 pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: "Zephyr" - Finally, the "v4" Fechter/Goodrum/Hecker BMS.

Postby SlyCayer » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:54 am

fechter wrote:We'd have to sell hundreds of them just to break even.


I think it's doable \o/, don't you think?
http://www.JCCayer.com Where you can find tools and Dewalt(A123) batteries.
SlyCayer
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:24 am
Location: Limoges, Ontario

PreviousNext

Return to Battery Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: boisrondevens and 8 guests