Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby 999zip999 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:18 pm

Why don't you run the pack at 3.4v-4.1v or so.
999zip999
10 GW
10 GW
 
Posts: 4045
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:40 pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby Teh Stork » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:16 am

999zip999 wrote:Why don't you run the pack at 3.4v-4.1v or so.


Well, I could allways do that. Just that there is little capacity below 3.6V. The pack is so big that I'll rarely really drain it. When I'm going for my 60km round trip - I'll have around 2500whr of battery capacity :twisted: And with the option to charge half-way :D

I look forward to getting everything fitted up and checking the actual capacity I get out from the pack while running. I've got a asphalt hybrid racer of some sort, so no huge tires sagging me down :P
Teh Stork
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 8:02 am

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby Teh Stork » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:09 pm

I'm planning on using glue to make a permament pack with my cells. A close friend of mine, in the plumber industry - suggested I should use Tec7. It is a form of silicone for everything in the bathrooms - but w/o silicone. (It doesn't stain the backside of mirrors amongst others (no vinegar)). The glue won't hold the full load during riding - but i want it to be structurally elastic and strong (no cracking).

Have anyone tried something similar?

I'm also in the finishing stages of a battery tester based on a AVR :D It can handle 8 cells at the same time. Or 8 konions in my case. My current setup uses irfp2907's (huge hexfets), a breadboard and a shit ton of small wires. Clearly not ideal, but a nice proof of concept. Going to etch my first pcb soon, maybe it's going open source if it doesn't screw up somehow :)
Teh Stork
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 8:02 am

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby marty » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:55 pm

Here Doctorbass uses tape.
Image

Here Doctorbass uses the plastic seperators from the Makita packs.
Image

Here is a web photo gallery of Doctorbass battery building projects. This is from 2009. Sure that he has perfected his methods by now.
http://voltev.com/doctorbass/

Glue would be a horrible mess if you ever needed to disassemble a large battery pack.
ebikes.ca
Online resource for electric bicycle conversions

http://www.ebikes.ca
Image
MARTY
Volt Electric Vehicles
http://www.voltev.com
User avatar
marty
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1334
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: Buffalo, New York USA

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby granolaboy » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:27 pm

I'd still like to know where people are finding dozens and dozens of these power tool packs. I've phoned around all the recycling places, and the local dewalt representative, and nobody has any, or is willing to part with them (well, aside from buying them new or used in working condition of course, which is ridiculous)
Image
User avatar
granolaboy
100 W
100 W
 
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:02 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby marty » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:00 pm

I tried dealing with this place.
http://www.recycle.net/
Click on Battery Recycling / Other Battery Recycling / Lithium Content Battery Scrap OR Lithium Ion Battery Scrap / View Listings
Forget exactly how that place is set up but I paid $50 for [Pay Per Lead Service: 50 Credits]
Looked at Credits Spent at recycle.net Think I used all my credits?
Long story short. Unless you have $$$$$$ for 50,000 pounds or so of used batteries and more money to transport them, Just forget it.
ebikes.ca
Online resource for electric bicycle conversions

http://www.ebikes.ca
Image
MARTY
Volt Electric Vehicles
http://www.voltev.com
User avatar
marty
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1334
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: Buffalo, New York USA

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby Doctorbass » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:15 pm

granolaboy wrote:I'd still like to know where people are finding dozens and dozens of these power tool packs.


My uncle is working for these places :wink:

I have a good familly :D

Doc
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
User avatar
Doctorbass
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 6932
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:24 am
Location: Quebec, Canada East

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby Teh Stork » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:33 am

granolaboy wrote:I'd still like to know where people are finding dozens and dozens of these power tool packs. I've phoned around all the recycling places, and the local dewalt representative, and nobody has any, or is willing to part with them (well, aside from buying them new or used in working condition of course, which is ridiculous)


I contacted makita customer service norway (my country), and after some 10 emails - I could pick 100 used packs up from the local makita workshop. I gave them a quick intro in what i was doing, + that packs often had 2 out of 10 cells broken. Adding that I'm a student definitely didn't hurt either. I'm sure dewalt, bosch and others could offer me even more cells, but my 680 working cells will hold for my pack, my booster pack, and a wiffy ebike in time :P
Teh Stork
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 8:02 am

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby mistercrash » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:08 am

I plan on building a 14s14p battery pack with these Konion cells. Do I need a special charger to charge this pack once it's done? Can I charge it with the charger I use now for my 48V SLA? Or can I charge with a RC charger like the CellPro 10S I have?

Thanks.
Ray
Is it ready yet?
User avatar
mistercrash
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:01 am
Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada eh!

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby Doctorbass » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:29 am

mistercrash wrote:I plan on building a 14s14p battery pack with these Konion cells. Do I need a special charger to charge this pack once it's done? Can I charge it with the charger I use now for my 48V SLA? Or can I charge with a RC charger like the CellPro 10S I have?

Thanks.
Ray



Never use SLA charger for charging lithium!.. they are not stable and don’t have constant current and constant voltage generally.

A for 14s, a Meanwell power supply is better ( if you attach one of these current limiter board it’s better)

I know that some europeen are selling 14s RC charger.. and also one of the hyperion is 14s capable too, ask Ggoodrum

Doc
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
User avatar
Doctorbass
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 6932
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:24 am
Location: Quebec, Canada East

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby IBScootn » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:47 pm

What "current limiting board" are ou referring to?
Motorcycle: ZEV 6100, 77V, 40AH, 60+mph; Cycle Analyst, LED head lights, 3 Cell Log interfaces, and faster charger added. 8000 miles so far.
Cost to date: $400, MSRP $6550 - $4120 tax credit - $1200 referrals + $500 mods -$1330 in gas savings.
Big EV Grin. :)
IBScootn
100 W
100 W
 
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:47 pm
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby Doctorbass » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:40 pm

IBScootn wrote:What "current limiting board" are ou referring to?



I see 19 post you have.. so i guess like many other new members here you are not so famillar with the.. SEARCH tool of the forum :lol: hey hey.. no worrie

This forum have Half million post ! (491433) so....

....Just make a search with: current limiter baord

and you will find the second thread talking about that!:

Fechter's Mini Meanwell Limiter Board

:wink:
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
User avatar
Doctorbass
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 6932
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:24 am
Location: Quebec, Canada East

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby Teh Stork » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:16 pm

marty wrote:Here Doctorbass uses tape.
Here Doctorbass uses the plastic seperators from the Makita packs.

Glue would be a horrible mess if you ever needed to disassemble a large battery pack.


Shorted your quote some.

Well, these are nice setups - but if you factor in electrical wiring + volumetric efficiency, glue would be superior. From doc's experiences, test and build your pack capacity and IR matched; and you shouldn't need to ever take it apart again.

I'll be sure to document it once I get going :)
Teh Stork
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 8:02 am

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby mistercrash » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:53 pm

Doctorbass wrote:
mistercrash wrote:I plan on building a 14s14p battery pack with these Konion cells. Do I need a special charger to charge this pack once it's done? Can I charge it with the charger I use now for my 48V SLA? Or can I charge with a RC charger like the CellPro 10S I have?

Thanks.
Ray



Never use SLA charger for charging lithium!.. they are not stable and don’t have constant current and constant voltage generally.

A for 14s, a Meanwell power supply is better ( if you attach one of these current limiter board it’s better)

I know that some europeen are selling 14s RC charger.. and also one of the hyperion is 14s capable too, ask Ggoodrum

Doc


I was pretty sure that using a SLA charger was not a good option but I had to ask anyway. Thanks Doc B, the Hyperion looks like a cool option for me since I can also use it to charge my lipos for the RC heli and trucks.
Is it ready yet?
User avatar
mistercrash
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:01 am
Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada eh!

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby mistercrash » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:11 pm

Doc I answered your PM from today but my internet got a little funky so either it went out and you get it several times or it didn't go at all. Anyway the answer is yes 30 packs please.

Thanks
Is it ready yet?
User avatar
mistercrash
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:01 am
Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada eh!

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby Doctorbass » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:26 pm

mistercrash wrote:Doc I answered your PM from today but my internet got a little funky so either it went out and you get it several times or it didn't go at all. Anyway the answer is yes 30 packs please.

Thanks


Answered :wink: 30 reserved for you

Doc
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
User avatar
Doctorbass
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 6932
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:24 am
Location: Quebec, Canada East

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby mistercrash » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:20 pm

Woohoo! :D This has been an expensive morning, the Konions, a Hyperion EOS 1420i charger, two server power supplies and a couple Hyperion 7s balance connectors. But it will still end up being half the price of the other alternatives I was looking at. If I'm lucky enough to get 224 good cells then I'm going 14s16p.
Is it ready yet?
User avatar
mistercrash
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:01 am
Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada eh!

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby mistercrash » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:36 am

Is the Doctor in the house?
I have a question but I will start with a quote from the OP.

"- make sure to charge the cells to the same level BEFORE TO PARALLEL THEM TOGETHER.. or ensure to have less than +/-150mV difference

-Before to use the pack flully charge ALL the cells to 4.1V or 4.2V.. (4.1 will prolong the life of these cells but will give you a bit less capacity)"

Does that mean I have to charge all the cells individually to 4.1V before paralleling them? I was hoping to be able to parallel them first and charge a bunch of cells at the same time. Charging individually would take such a long time.

Thanks Doctorbass
Is it ready yet?
User avatar
mistercrash
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:01 am
Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada eh!

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby 999zip999 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:56 am

That's about right ( 230 ) some 12v packs wil have 5p at 2.39v. And they mite ship a 19v at 3.8v and one bad or all good.I charged all cells to 4.0 then in there factory string. They will show if you watch. Lot of checking.
999zip999
10 GW
10 GW
 
Posts: 4045
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:40 pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby ambroseliao » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:57 am

mistercrash wrote:Does that mean I have to charge all the cells individually to 4.1V before paralleling them?


Short answer, Yes! Charge individually, measure and mark the cell voltage on the cell, find all that are with ~150mV of each other and make your pack.
http://www.ebikes.ca/ is the best!

2x TidalForce M-750, 1x Tidalforce S-750 with Crystalyte HS3540, 1x TF iO Cruiser, 1x TF iOX Cruiser, 1x TF iO Cruiser Step Through. ebikes.ca DrainBrain & Cycle Analyst meters. GoPro HD Hero2 camera. A123 20Ah batteries. 18S 10Ah LiPO.
My blog: http://ebikerider.blogspot.com
Remember LiFEPo4 HVC is 3.65V and LVC is 2.7V
User avatar
ambroseliao
1 MW
1 MW
 
Posts: 1520
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:34 pm
Location: Washington, DC, USA area

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby 999zip999 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:02 pm

Hey Ambroseliao you have a batery tester what I.R. did you get on your konion cell ?
999zip999
10 GW
10 GW
 
Posts: 4045
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:40 pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby Doctorbass » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:13 pm

OK,

For the step prior to make your pack, you need to equalize ( balance ) all cells to the same level.

As well, all packs and cells have not the same state of charge so you need to bring all them to the same BEFORE to parallel your cell in the build

What you need is to ensure that all the cells you will parallel to equalize ( balance) need to have max 300mV from the lowest to the highest cells BEFORE TO PARALLEL

So since many cells will have higher voltage difference than 300mV, let say one of the cell have 3.4 and the other have 4.0.. so you can not parallel them from now. just follow the next step and you will be able then to parallel all them

What I suggest is to make few different groups of voltage ranges. Let say you make a group for the cell from 2.5 to 2.8V, another for the cell at 2.8 to 3.1V, another group with cell of 3.1 to 3.4V etc.. up to 4.2V ( this step is not to make your pack but just for the equalization step!)

So instead of charging all cell individually, make these groups with all these range of cells voltage and than you can charge these group instead of charging each cells, that will save you a lot of time! so proceding to a charge of 5 or 6 groups is faster than charging 100 or 200 individual cells as well! :wink:

After all these groups are charged to 4.1V or 4.2V, the final equalizing step would be to parallel all group cells together.

One of the best way I found to parallel cells fast if to use aluminum foil sheet and some smooth packing material. What you do if to place all cells in a sandwich with one top and one bottom layer of aluminum foil sheet. It work perfectly!

But since all cells don’t have a the perfect exact lengh form each other, to ensure that all cell have a good electrical contact to the sheet you can use some soft bubble or foam sheet material to apply pressure on the foil on both top and bottom, than to use rigid material to apply uniform pressure on that sandwich. I will try to post a picture that.
( dont forget to prepare the cell nickel tab to have a good electrical contact for each cells! ( follow the way i suggested in teh thread when i flip the tab nickel sheet of the cell ends with some pliers



Doc
________________
-Fastest speed record from now: 113 km/h measured on GPS
-Fastest ebike 106km/h on flat and managed to enter in the 19.875 sec on the 1/4 mile drag racing !
-0-70km/h in 5sec X5 5303 on 24"
TORQUE SETUP:
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
-Team Konion Member
113kmh Giant___http://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoose____http://www.evalbum.com/1947
E-trike_______ http://www.evalbum.com/3776
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english
User avatar
Doctorbass
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 6932
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:24 am
Location: Quebec, Canada East

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby mistercrash » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:52 pm

Ok thanks guys I really appreciate this but Doc, you're fine explanation puts another little doubt in my mind. You say to group the cells together with voltages that are 300 mv of each other which makes sense. 2.5 to 2.8 and 2.9 to 3.2 and so on. But in your very first post, you say to basically toss any cells below 3V. I hope I can use the cells that show a voltage of less than 3V because after opening 14 packs, I have 12 that were dead (I expected more so that's good) and 58 that are between 2.3 and 2.8 volts. So can I use these cells? My thinking is that if they show a voltage and charge up to 4.1V with no problems than they're good. But of course to know exactly if EVERY cell takes a charge and is good to go, than this brings me back to charging individually :?

Thanks for your patience, I'm old and presently sick with the flu so brain working at an even lower level than usual.
Last edited by mistercrash on Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Is it ready yet?
User avatar
mistercrash
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:01 am
Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada eh!

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby docnjoj » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:55 pm

That is one smart way to equalize cells, Doc. Fantastique!
otherDoc
E-bike stable at our house
Bike-e electric front brushed C/L
Steintrike Mad Max full suspension trike rear 9C
Sun USX delta trike 9C front wheel sort of front suspension
Frame of homebuilt trike in shed with Bafang still on it
New Agniusm/A123 on the Steini and old 10ah Ping paralleled with 12 ah Fatpacks on USX
My wife and I ride the trikes
User avatar
docnjoj
10 GW
10 GW
 
Posts: 4827
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:26 pm
Location: Fairhope AL

Re: Building battery from MAKITA Konion PACK

Postby mistercrash » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:57 pm

He makes me think of the old Labatt 50 tv commercials featuring the French Quebecers called ''Les débrouillards 50''.
Is it ready yet?
User avatar
mistercrash
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:01 am
Location: Guelph, Ontario, Canada eh!

PreviousNext

Return to Battery Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: tmho and 5 guests