New "Hybrid Super-capacitor LiFePo4" cells

Wattever · Dec 28, 2011

Hi,

I am learning a lot from this forum and would like to share a new cell I came across.

The company is a Chinese company (surprise!) named cyliyuan.
http://www.cyliyuan.com/en/index.asp

They also sell super capacitors.

I got samples of their 10Ah cells and tested the cells as a 48V (16S) 10Ah pack on my bicycle (30A peak) and on a bench discharger I built (@ 40A ~2000W).
The cells show better performance than 38120S headway I ordered as well. the pack stayed above 48V for most of its 4C discharge and had more than 10Ah to put. I don't have actual numbers written but I still have 4 cells I can test (sold the pack).

I was talking to a guy named Wang there,
Here are some answers I got from Wang:

"For your questions, pls. check our answers below.
1. what is the chemistry you use? LiFePo4? is it combined with a super capacitor?
The main material in positive pole is LiFePo4, we combined super capacitor with battery as like the form of atoms, for example, we put so many tiny super capacitors inside the battery.

2. the size of 10Ah and 12Ah are the same in the pdf? does 120mm include the threaded ends?
Not same, the size of 10Ah is W*L*H=27*70*88, and 120mm not include the threaded ends.

3. is the case of the battery hard?
The case of the battery can be desighed as required upon quantity order.

4. Do you have safety tests for it? overcharge? over heating?
Yes, we passed mandatory test of our nation at the first time, and also we passed entrust test by authority. Which include overcharge and overdischarge test, overheat, squeeze, prick, vibration, drop and etc, all the results show that there was no any fire or explosion or leakage.
Pls. find some test photos of our products.

5. which chargers can you use? CC/CV LiFePo4 chargers?
Yes, first charge by constant voltage and then by constant current. our battery can be charge by 2C current.
If have any other questions, pls. tell us!"

I would like to mention I really liked the cell connecting strips they sent me - they are made of many layers of thin copper which makes them flexible - this helps not stressing the threaded poles of the cell and reduces "vibration bolts loosing" effect.

Wang's contact email is: hdwang21@yahoo.com.cn

heathyoung · Dec 28, 2011

Those cells look very small for 40Ah... Interesting.

Looks like they beat the crap out of them as well!

Cycle life will be the telling factor here, along with price.

flathill · Dec 28, 2011

Thanks for sharing! Won't it be great when all cells come in this form factor and you can pick them up at the corner hardware store!

It looks like the HP-NP-3R2-200 is the sweet spot with an energy density of 112 Wh/kg
I think the A123 20Ah pouch is 130-140 Wh/kg but they don't have handy dandy terminals

They remind me of Blue Energy GS Yuasa cells

http://www.gsyuasa-lp.com/Products/GSYuasa-LEV50.pdf

ohzee · Dec 28, 2011

yea looks interesting to me also.

flathill · Dec 28, 2011

They also have "high energy" and "high power" versions on the chinese language page which google won't translate for some reason
http://www.cyliyuan.com/cn/liver1.asp?subtype=&id=352
HP-HE-3R2-230: 129Wh/kg but only 5C max_discharge and much lower cycle life so it isn't worth it over the "normal energy" 20AH cell

How the hell does the battery have tiny supercapcitors it it? Marketing hype? Double layer effect on nano porous powder? Is this A123's secret sauce?

neptronix · Dec 28, 2011

A capacitor would only help buffer out small power spikes. So if you put it through a proper test, you'd see the ordinary voltage sag delayed by a second or two.

Even the best capacitor has a lower energy density than a 1C battery, so it would be useless to even add capacitors to the mix. So they are either lying or having translation troubles ( often the former. )

At ~130wHr/KG, these cells are nothing to write home about.

I say wait for the NMC type stuff to develop and trickle down to the hobbyist market... until then.. lipo ftw

flathill · Dec 28, 2011

batterycapacitors (battcaps) are real I'm just wondering if that is what LIYUAN is really making. It seems they are a military supplier so maybe...

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/27045/
"The hybrid energy-storage device consists of an etched aluminum film coated on one side with carbon slurry, which is similar to the electrode found in an ultracapacitor. The other electrode, on the other side of the film, is coated not with carbon but with a lithium-ion material, providing more energy-storage capacity. The film is wound into a cylinder to make the finished device."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_capacitor

sangesf · Dec 28, 2011

Wattever said:
Hi,

I am learning a lot from this forum and would like to share a new cell I came across.

The company is a Chinese company (surprise!) named cyliyuan.
http://www.cyliyuan.com/en/index.asp

They also sell super capacitors.

I got samples of their 10Ah cells and tested the cells as a 48V (16S) 10Ah pack on my bicycle (30A peak) and on a bench discharger I built (@ 40A ~2000W).
The cells show better performance than 38120S headway I ordered as well. the pack stayed above 48V for most of its 4C discharge and had more than 10Ah to put. I don't have actual numbers written but I still have 4 cells I can test (sold the pack).

I was talking to a guy named Wang there,
Here are some answers I got from Wang:

"For your questions, pls. check our answers below.
1. what is the chemistry you use? LiFePo4? is it combined with a super capacitor?
The main material in positive pole is LiFePo4, we combined super capacitor with battery as like the form of atoms, for example, we put so many tiny super capacitors inside the battery.

2. the size of 10Ah and 12Ah are the same in the pdf? does 120mm include the threaded ends?
Not same, the size of 10Ah is W*L*H=27*70*88, and 120mm not include the threaded ends.

3. is the case of the battery hard?
The case of the battery can be desighed as required upon quantity order.

4. Do you have safety tests for it? overcharge? over heating?
Yes, we passed mandatory test of our nation at the first time, and also we passed entrust test by authority. Which include overcharge and overdischarge test, overheat, squeeze, prick, vibration, drop and etc, all the results show that there was no any fire or explosion or leakage.
Pls. find some test photos of our products.

5. which chargers can you use? CC/CV LiFePo4 chargers?
Yes, first charge by constant voltage and then by constant current. our battery can be charge by 2C current.
If have any other questions, pls. tell us!"

I would like to mention I really liked the cell connecting strips they sent me - they are made of many layers of thin copper which makes them flexible - this helps not stressing the threaded poles of the cell and reduces "vibration bolts loosing" effect.

Wang's contact email is: hdwang21@yahoo.com.cn

Well, waiting for test info...

Also...

What did you pay for the cells? How much was shipping
Why did you get rid of the pack in the first place?

flathill · Dec 28, 2011

neptronix said:
At ~130wHr/KG, these cells are nothing to write home about.

I say wait for the NMC type stuff to develop and trickle down to the hobbyist market... until then.. lipo ftw

I would suggest keeping lipo off this thread since we already know it is the "best" but let's do an unfaircompare anyway
Zippy Flightmax
Capacity: 8000mAh
Voltage: 3S1P / 3 Cell / 11.1v
Discharge: 30C Constant / 40C Burst
Weight: 644g (including wire, plug & case)
Dimensions: 169x69x27mm
=137Wh/kg with OK cycle life and rat nest wiring and questionable specs

I think the HP-NP-3R2-200 with an energy density of 112 Wh/kg is not doing too bad if it can really do 20C. I'm 230lbs and 6'3" so a few extra pounds is not gonna to make a diff. I'm no carbon fiber weight weenie. SUPERTHERM 4130 FTW

neptronix · Dec 28, 2011

You tried to get me to leave lipo out of this, then you said negative things about lipo, kind of self defeating. Don't you know how much of a lipo fanboy i am? :lol:

1) rat's nest of wiring is not necessary, it's just that most people decide to go that route for some reason

2) wHr/KG is actually higher for lipo. The nominal voltage that hobbyking reports is not true, it is actually about 3.8v/cell, that takes all the lipo packs into the 150wHr/KG zone. I am not sure why hobbyking keeps stating 3.7v/cell is nominal - probably because that's what you get in real life when you run the pack at 50%-100% of it's C rate. But for eBike use, we tax the battery far less and get a drastically better voltage curve out of it..

According to the wikipedia article, the lithium ion capacitors have a whopping 11-14wHr/KG rating, lol. You'd be better off using a larger lifepo4 pack to achieve the same effect.. because capacitors will only buffer small, short bursts of power.

That lifepo4 is gonna be 20C for about a second, then 1-5C from then on

flathill · Dec 28, 2011

neptronix said:
2) wHr/KG is actually higher for lipo. The nominal voltage that hobbyking reports is not true, it is actually about 3.8v/cell, that takes all the lipo packs into the 150wHr/KG zone. I am not sure why hobbyking keeps stating 3.7v/cell is nominal - probably because that's what you get in real life when you run the pack at 50%-100% of it's C rate. But for eBike use, we tax the battery far less and get a drastically better voltage curve out of it..

That lifepo4 is gonna be 20C for about a second, then 1-5C from then on

I thought only nanotech was 3.8v nominal? It's a moot point because the 8Ah hobbycity packs are closer to 7 according to you and others. Even if you do custom wiring you still have to deal with the "horrible construction"

You cant have it both ways

neptronix wrote:
"thanks a lot for the data.

That's both interesting, and horrible in regards to the construction. I wonder if all the 8AH packs are designed like that.
Other people have complained about only getting ~7AH out of those packs, but they were talking about the zippies.

That's quite bad for a 1C test.
'spose the love affair with the 8AH units is over for me."
Source
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=34293&hilit=8000mah&start=15

neptronix · Dec 28, 2011

flathill said:
I thought only nanotech was 3.8v nominal? It's a moot point because the 8Ah hobbycity packs are closer to 7 according to you and others. Even if you do custom wiring you still have to deal with the "horrible construction"

Both nanotech and regular ol' 20-30c+ packs all have the same discharge curve actually - hence the 3.8-3.5v/cell nominal rating. But nanotech does sag less, so it can deliver more wHr under heavy loads.

I'm not going to disagree with you on the 8AH packs, that issue is well known.
But the 5AH packs have been known to deliver a hair over 5AH, up to 5.25AH if you're lucky. Liveforphysics and me both have noted this in testing.

Nothing wrong with the construction. If you wanted to make something akin to a ping pack, you could solder the packs together in permanent series/parallel. They'd be rather clean looking if you did so. I soldered mine in permanent series but not parallel. If you wanted to make some clean and very short harnesses, i have info on making those posted elsewhere.

But let's not get too off topic here... :lol:

Wattever · Dec 28, 2011

What did you pay for the cells? How much was shipping
Why did you get rid of the pack in the first place?

I paid 16USD per 10Ah, which is their price for all cells (1.6USD/Ah). shipping to Israel (where I live) was the usual express rates you pay - no special charges, BTW they don't accept PayPal, only bank transfers.
I sold the pack after 2 months of testing on my bicycle because I am a Lipo abuser, its an adiction.... and someone gave mean offer I couldn't refuse.
I do love to try new things, what I liked with these cells is they gave better performance than other LiFePo4, and they fit in smaller packages than the headway 38120S- (which I like as well). However my lipo weight almost half, so LIpo for me.

What tests info would you like to see?

How the hell does the battery have tiny supercapcitors it it? Marketing hype? Double layer effect on nano porous powder? Is this A123's secret sauce?

I tried asking him, he won't elaborate on that... try contacting Wang - he knows I posted his email.

flathill · Dec 29, 2011

I contacted Wang and got the same story/price with a link to alibaba. I asked for a customers list and got trade show pics instead. Wattever and Wang also appear to be online at the same time....this could be a fishy fishing expedition. Please proceed with extreme caution. I'm going to have
my friend contact the mfg and see if alibaba is a authorized sales channel.

In the meantime I would like to see IR measurements done at 20C with the cell at 3.2V. I would also like to find the true continuous discharge rate. Does anyone know how a123 came up with 5c continuous for the 20ah pouch? Wang said these cells are good for 2c continuous and 28c max (the new spec sheet says 20c to be conservative) with may still be ok if they are underrated. I would want my bike to have at least a half hour run time average anyways

Wattever · Dec 29, 2011

Wattever and Wang also appear to be online at the same time....this could be a fishy fishing expedition.

Hey Flathill, take a look at my posts from the last year I am a member here. don't be paranoid :shock:

I gave the answers I got from Wang here, its only logical you will get the same answers...
Its good to be carefull, but instead of testing the cells I have to defend myself here,
What ever!

sangesf · Dec 29, 2011

Discharge graphs at .5c, 1C and 2C from 3.7v to 2.8v
That's what I personally would like to see.
I'm still not ready for LiPo.. LOL.
My bike falls too many times, I carry A LOT of stuff in the battery compartment other than just batteries. (so impact/puncture ability is higher than normal).

Wattever · Dec 29, 2011

These cells are soft packed, so its not such an impact resistant choice.

I don't have any way to get a graph of the discharge - I have a wattsup so I can inspect the voltage/Amps during the discharge, I also like to calculate the nominal voltage at a given discharge rate by dividing total Wh/Ah.
I think my Imax B8 charger can connect to the PC and show discharge graphs but only at very low wattage... maybe on 1 cell it will be able to discharge at 2-3C, do you know which software is compatible with the Imax B8 charger?

flathill · Dec 29, 2011

Wattever said:
Wattever and Wang also appear to be online at the same time....this could be a fishy fishing expedition.

Click to expand...

Hey Flathill, take a look at my posts from the last year I am a member here. don't be paranoid
I gave the answers I got from Wang here, its only logical you will get the same answers...
Its good to be carefull, but instead of testing the cells I have to defend myself here,
What ever!

"Only the paranoid survive" -Andy Grove (founder of Intel)

I'm just being careful as I've seen so many people burned by Alibaba "gold" suppliers
I need to tell Wang that his website link is wrong
Check out alibaba for yourselves...www.cyliyuan.coN
Freudian slip maybe?

sangesf · Dec 29, 2011

Wattever said:
These cells are soft packed, so its not such an impact resistant choice.

I don't have any way to get a graph of the discharge - I have a wattsup so I can inspect the voltage/Amps during the discharge, I also like to calculate the nominal voltage at a given discharge rate by dividing total Wh/Ah.
I think my Imax B8 charger can connect to the PC and show discharge graphs but only at very low wattage... maybe on 1 cell it will be able to discharge at 2-3C, do you know which software is compatible with the Imax B8 charger?

I meant LiPo compared to lifepo4. So even if these cells get impacted, they won't easily catch fire.

On the software part, I have no clue...

On only 1 cell, a graph would work.. Wouldn't need it on a grouping of cells..

Nominal voltage on lifepo4 technology is always 3.2-3.3v. On LiPo it's always 3.7-3.8v.

Wattsup will work on a single cell (if you use an external power source) as it will give you AH usage from 3.8v to 2.8v.
(for me, don't really need a graph, just usuable AH info.

Wattever · Dec 29, 2011

I can discharge @5A on the charger,
My home built discharger is about 1.5 Ohm - I made it from an old heat blower connecting its resistant wire in parallel, leaving the blower motor to cool things when discharging. this way if I build a 4S pack from all 4 cells I have left I will be able to draw only ~8A.
I am thinking of connecting 12S lipo in series with one cell - this way I can get a higher discharge rate, up to 40A, I can monitor the Ah with the Wattsup and monitor the cell's voltage with a fluk. I just have to watch out from over discharging my 12S Lipo pack...

sangesf · Dec 29, 2011

Heres an easy way...

Start cells at 3.65v ea.

4s Cells-> WU meter ->100w auto bulb

That's equates to about 8a... (.8C)
WU meter will show you what you want to know...

Hook up two bulbs in parallel and you get 16a (~1.5C)

There's your two data points.

Watch each cell with fluke meter.
(If your cells are close in AH, then good)

When WU shows 10.8v under load, you're done!

peterperkins · Dec 30, 2011

Wattever said:
These cells are soft packed, so its not such an impact resistant choice. ?

Some compression is likely to be reqd imho to get the best out of them in terms of IR etc and to restrict swelling, they have blown up like a ballon in those photos. :shock:

Wattever · Jan 1, 2012

Test results @~0.75C
made a 4S pack and discharged till lowest cell had 2.5V - exactlly 10Ah

I got 125.2Wh and 10.000Ah, this means the avg voltage @~7.5A is 12.52V (3.13V per cell).

pictures attached:

sangesf · Jan 1, 2012

That's about as good as it gets for lifepo4.
Nothing "special" about it tho...
Typical discharge rate for lifepo4.
(Usually rated at 1C from 3.65 to 2.7v)

After everything is all said and done, basic lifepo4 at basic prices..

Nothing to write home about...

Thundersky/GBS cells are even cheaper and are rated better (in my experience).

Wattever · Jan 2, 2012

I have to disagree,
The reason I posted this post is because I experienced better performance (less voltage sag) with these cells than with other LiFePo4 cells (Headway, PSI).
I have just finished discharging @ 20A (2C) and here are the numbers:
Ah out Total V
0Ah 12.58V
1Ah 12.17V
2Ah 12.17V
3Ah 12.17V
4Ah 12.17V
5Ah 12.15V
6Ah 12.10V
7Ah 11.97V
8Ah 11.82V

I stopped here because the other battery I used in series to get this discharge rate (an old 24V PSI pack) got empty.

I am NOT related in any way to the manufacturers and I have no business with them. I am just giving my honest opinion.

I am wondering if/how these cells are related to super capacitors, I did not get real answers about that from Wang....

New "Hybrid Super-capacitor LiFePo4" cells

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