Is there any way to buy real Panasonic 18650? + Discussion

[neptronix]

Thanks for chipping in oatnet. It's just that i don't see a lot of people on here using the A123s. I forgot that you had this stuff sorted - that is rarely mentioned. You have the best tab connection method i have seen so far, but frankly, it's a job i'd never want to do ( doing surgery on my lipos already gets my heart racing ).

I think there was a period of time when i was on here where there was no A123 20AH supplier. Cell_man hadn't mentioned he was selling them, and the supply was cut off at that point. I think only you were talking about being able to get them.

I know that used / backdoor cells was how this all started, but i guess that never interested me. I lurked the forums a long time before joining, but finally I got interested in doing my own build when i heard you could extract brand new A123 cells out of deWalt packs. Until then, i was just not interested.

So, different strokes for different folks. I want ultra high density for 100+ mile rides. But i also live in an upstairs apartment, so being able to carry the bike up and down is an issue. Even RC Lipo doesn't make that a reality, 2.5kWhr of it is 38lbs alone, on top of a bike that is around 35-40lb itself.


p.s. Kin - even if i had A123's i'd be using my iCharger to balance them...

[John in CR]

I've got a Panasonic battery factory less than 5 min away. I checked with them as soon as I knew anything about Li batts and a couple of times since, but unfortunately the largest Li cells they produce here are the little button size. It's been well over a year, so I guess it's time to check in with the head guy once again.

[Kin]

I've got a Panasonic battery factory less than 5 min away. I checked with them as soon as I knew anything about Li batts and a couple of times since, but unfortunately the largest Li cells they produce here are the little button size. It's been well over a year, so I guess it's time to check in with the head guy once again.

Sweet. Yeah, button cell might be a bit small. Look forward to hearing if there were any expansions.

[neptronix]

Let's do it. 20s2000p battery packs!

Most likely non-rechargeable though.

[oatnet]

I want ultra high density for 100+ mile rides.

You have me beat - 30 miles and I am exhausted.

-JD

[cwah]

I want 250wh/kg cells!!!!

[migueralliart]

A minute of searching gave me this

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/4008

nice discharge capabilities! I'm in for a group buy if anyone is interested in starting one.

[cwah]

Interested if I can get 250wh/kg batteries! But I haven't built a battery yet.

[neptronix]

A minute of searching gave me this

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/4008

nice discharge capabilities! I'm in for a group buy if anyone is interested in starting one.

I believe you are not reading this post correctly.
On 2C, one cell will sagging by 0.6v/cell!!!



That means that at 2C, a 20AH 10S ( 36v ) pack on a 40A load would have a 6 volt sag! that's pretty bad!
If the 1C rate means for 3V of sag on a 10S pack, that is still quite poor.

These cells will need to be ran at 0.5C or less for best performance and long cell life.

The official Panasonic discharge graph shows a rosier picture. So what is true.. ?

Great for a monster size pack.
But for a monster sized pack, the price adds up very quickly ( based on that eBay price )

$100 3.1AH
$200 6.2AH
$300 9.3AH
$400 11.4AH
$500 14.5AH
$600 19.6AH
$700 22.7AH
$800 25.8AH
$900 27.9AH
$1000 31AH <-- still only good for 31 amps maximum!!

That's around $1000/wHr !! remember that Tesla has said their battery cost is less than half of that? ...

[migueralliart]

A minute of searching gave me this

These cells will need to be ran at 0.5C or less for best performance and long cell life.

The official Panasonic discharge graph shows a rosier picture. So what is true.. ?

Great for a monster size pack.
But for a monster sized pack, the price adds up very quickly ( based on that eBay price )

$100 3.1AH
$200 6.2AH
$300 9.3AH
$400 11.4AH
$500 14.5AH
$600 19.6AH
$700 22.7AH
$800 25.8AH
$900 27.9AH
$1000 31AH <-- still only good for 31 amps maximum!!

That's around $1000/wHr !! remember that Tesla has said their battery cost is less than half of that? ...

For people with low current draw, it seems like a good solution.

[auraslip]

In the ecig community everyone swears by "aw" brand batteries. Apparently they're 18650s from panasonic. But they're $10 a pop. Check in the ecig forums for discharge graphs.

[Jason27]

Kin; the "high energy" Dow Kokams are better than RC Lipo in terms of energy density, and have a good cycle life like the A123's, but are a little more expensive than these Panasonics per watt-hour

I wonder if anyone bought those on the group buy. Didn't see many people hoppin' over them..

I am sure there is major markup on those Panasonic cells. How else could Tesla deliver a luxury car with 40kWh for $56k? Their price per watt hour is gonna be super low. Boy would a group buy on those be nice. I'd empty my savings for those. I want a >70 mile range pack that fits in the triangle of my bike.

The type of battery your requesting already exists my friend. I could easily do about 80 miles with about 4 lithium manganese packs that could fit in the triangle of my bike.

[neptronix]

The type of battery your requesting already exists my friend. I could easily do about 80 miles with about 4 lithium manganese packs that could fit in the triangle of my bike.

At the low, low cost of >$1000/kw-hr!

Oh wait, you could buy Dow Kokams with 4 times the cycle life for that cost!
Oh wait, i could buy panasonics at retail price for less ( $800-$900/kw-hr ) and have something even smaller!

You know that i just bought 1.5kw-hr of RC Lipo for $620 shipped? That was a particularly expensive type as well, i could have got some slightly heavier stuff and got 1.5kw-hr for less than $500.

Never been interested in the allcell. The price is exorbitant and the specs don't make up for it. At least the Dow Kokam cells give you 4x the cycle life, similar wHr/KG and 1-2C better discharge in the 'high energy' format..

There's a reason that, despite Lester trying to whore that pack out on ES, you are the only person i know of running it after a year of listening to him self promote.

Also the Dow Kokams are not selling so hot either.
The truth is that people don't want to pay $1000/kw-hr. That's for suckers. Not when the major auto corps are paying $300-$500/kw-hr for their cells.

It's just not a solution when you're looking to put together a 3kWh pack.

[Kin]

Hmm, yeah guys. So I know it's established Panasonic has some pretty high density, low power cells. Couple summaries from this thread:

1) It doesn't look that anyone knows how to get them for less than $6/cell, and most sellers are $10/cell. That's way too high to be cool, especially when you'll need to do the work and use the materials for making a good pack. Was hoping someone might know "ohoho, this is a place to get the cells for not insanely more expensive than tesla gets them for").

2) It sounds like these cells get their magic simply as an optimization of existing technology, and not through any sort of particularly innovative new magic. I was especially curious about that, if it had anything more than simply shoving the most charge carrers they could in a cell and the least everything-else.

______________________

[neptronix]

I was hoping for that too

Kin, if you ever find anything out, PM me.
$6 a cell would be fairly decent.

I still think the ball is about to drop on some interesting NMC stuff in the future.
BMSBattery has some stuff, but their cell quality is low.
It's an indication that the Chinese factories that sell to hobbyists have figured out how to pump that stuff out though..

[velorelax]

Prices for Japan-made cells will never be as low as for chinese stuff, even if you buy them through a chines broker.
You can find comparable cells from China for about 2.5-3$. Good point about the Panasonic is their QC. Even Evvatech told me Panasonic QC is superior to Samsung QC, for only slightly higher price.
To get the price Tesla is paying, you have to order similar quantities!
Best price I found is from www.portapower.com , but they only sell ready-made packs, for low-power applications. Their prices are around 6$ a cell, but with a good BMS and a charger. But - MOQ 50 packs!
Otherwise, if you don't trust what I'm saying, order a sample from Evvatech, maybe a 10S4P pack, and test it! Only thing I didn't like: They came with duct-tape finish... but OK inside!

[iperov]

I bought 140 pcs NCR18650A from aliexpress by $7 each with shipping.
Target capacity after 300 cycles at 1C = >915wh at 5kg,
very good for me.

[cwah]

they have a pack mentionned here but no price:
http://oem.portapower.com/index.php/products/product_info/24173/26