A123 20Ah Quebec Group buy(Canada) cells ARRIVED 24.57$/cell

[miro13car]

mastercrash,
I see your point, you are worried about charging , you are right , should not be charged in cold like below 10C , I read about it also.
But not in A123 official documents. On Battery University web site and what write they about it makes sense to me.
I never thought about it,my 2 ebikes are always stored indoors , I charge at work and at home indoors and my third ebike Merida has removable battery.
However I see this /charging indoors/ as a problem in England , Europe with their tiny dwellings /townhouses/ while hudge NAmerican houses in comparison with 2 entrances one can always find a room to roll/lift up ebike indoors.

[ga2500ev]

ohzee,
can you answer, please,
how many did you buy?
What voltages on arrival?

Ohzee answered these questions in another thread:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38027&start=75#p564954

you forgot about current on your test, what current?
Are you sure it was 2.3V cut off or 2.5V cut off?
AT lower than 1C current you can get 19Ah even until 2.5V. Not so easy when you do 20Amps discharge .
what equipment did you use?
thanks

No answers for these. Waiting to hear back.

ga2500ev

[flathill]

I started a new thread to help understand how these cells could be defective
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38751

Also did you guys see these
4S Junction plate for A123 20ah Prismatic cells

They look pretty crappy but could be ok for low power while being lighter than clamps

The eig clamp style looks the like the best compromise between high power and cell access
and is what mercedes will be using

[docnjoj]

I started a new thread to help understand how these cells could be defective
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38751

Also did you guys see these
4S Junction plate for A123 20ah Prismatic cells

They look pretty crappy but could be ok for low power while being lighter than clamps

Do you have the link for those connectors from A123RC? Thanks
otherDoc

[IBScootn]

Mistercrash, thanks for your post regarding charge temp; 10C min is insane, that's only 50F. There's no way, I could deal with that.

[mistercrash]

Mistercrash, thanks for your post regarding charge temp; 10C min is insane, that's only 50F. There's no way, I could deal with that.

Well 10°C is what was suggested in here according to what is said in the Battery University website. The real spec IIRC for the A123 cell is not below 5°C. And a bit lower on the EIG cells at 0°C. That's only for charging.

I want to make clear that I didn't bring this up to discourage people living up North to buy these cells, I brought it up to encourage discussions in finding a solution for us living in the cold to use these cells. A solution that is efficient, reliable, affordable and simple.

[davec]

i've always had a feeling something was not right with these cells
the tests show their ok
but to make them worthwhile- it;s best to waite to see folks on here put them to use- if they get more than 6 months out of these than their worth something- otherwise a cba test or two dosn't say much except that some cells are stronger than other and their potential is about 18ah down to unusable 2volts and even less down to 2.8volts(15-16ah if i remember from another thread)

[The Mighty Volt]

Personally, I have a feeling we are being dumped on. Time will tell. Good luck to all involved.

[mistercrash]

With the testing done to these cells with good results and all, and the price starting to be affordable for many, I am curious to know what those cells would bring to people using their E-bikes all year long and live in parts of the world where the temperatures drop to below 5°C five or six months in the year. There are bikes with battery packs that can be easily taken off the bike and brought inside to warm up before charging. Or the whole bike can be brought inside so the pack warms up before charging. But for many who ride on E-scooters or small E-motorcycles, in which the battery is not easily taken off and the whole thing is too heavy to go up stairs to bring inside the house. What are the alternatives for those E-riders.
I'm not trying to start an argument or bring down this product, I'm just questioning why anyone would want to use them when living in an environment that goes against the cell's capabilities six months of the year and for applications that stresses their physical integrity beyond its limits.

why not put a heater in the battery compartment and heat the battery like they do on the volt? i am sure you have a plug if you charge it out there. insulate it in winter and then park it where you can keep the charger and heater going. that should let you use it for commuting.

dnum, I'm sorry I completely missed your post. Maybe because it was at the bottom of the page. But yes, something to heat the battery could be a solution, I know it has been brought up many times in different threads. Many links to some products that seem interesting to heat batteries can be found within this forum. What I haven't found yet is someone, somewhere who actually put something to use. Something efficient, reliable, affordable and simple. Yes these 4 words again, they are important to me. I don't want something jiffy rigged that fails every couple weeks or catches on fire. I don't want something that costs half of what the battery costs and you need to be an engineer or a physicist to be able to figure out.
Efficient, reliable, affordable and simple. Under $100, simple design, install it, plug it, use it. And it works for at least 5 years in dust, hot, cold, rain, snow and slush. It's not too much to ask is it?

[pgt400]

i've always had a feeling something was not right with these cells
the tests show their ok
but to make them worthwhile- it;s best to waite to see folks on here put them to use- if they get more than 6 months out of these than their worth something- otherwise a cba test or two dosn't say much except that some cells are stronger than other and their potential is about 18ah down to unusable 2volts and even less down to 2.8volts(15-16ah if i remember from another thread)

Show the thread that said 15-16ah at 2.8 volts....you can't, because there isn't one. All mine and EVERYONE elses are ALL coming out above 18ah at 2.5v Which you know but for some reason you continue to make up your own "facts". Why?

[ohzee]

i've always had a feeling something was not right with these cells
the tests show their ok
but to make them worthwhile- it;s best to waite to see folks on here put them to use- if they get more than 6 months out of these than their worth something- otherwise a cba test or two dosn't say much except that some cells are stronger than other and their potential is about 18ah down to unusable 2volts and even less down to 2.8volts(15-16ah if i remember from another thread)

Show the thread that said 15-16ah at 2.8 volts....you can't, because there isn't one. All mine and EVERYONE elses are ALL coming out above 18ah at 2.5v Which you know but for some reason you continue to make up your own "facts". Why?

I agree that I have not seen any negative results from these cells so far other then the one person who I think lied or made up stats to get more cells/replaced if I followed that thread correctly.

I am hoping for the best , but for the price point it's a worthwhile gamble.

[miro13car]

davec,
only way to show inferiority of A123RC and Victpower cells is to obtain and show graphs of grade-A A123 20Ah cells.
You promised us that you would get them!!! You wrote so on the last page of Europe Group Buy THREAD now locked.
Otherwise yours are just empty words.
They are worse than OEM A123 cells but HOW MUCH WORSE, that is the question.
We are not gonna know untill you show us those graphs.
Some A123RC /Victpower cells come close to A-grade I am sure.
Maybe one in ten.
Remember that they are for sure tested on computerized equipment. There must be setpoints programmed for Ri or other parameters and one can imagine that cells falling short just a bit on this setpoints are rejected also, so almost A-grade.
davec, get us those graphs from Mavizen. You promised!

[oatnet]

i've always had a feeling something was not right with these cells
the tests show their ok
but to make them worthwhile- it;s best to waite to see folks on here put them to use- if they get more than 6 months out of these than their worth something- otherwise a cba test or two dosn't say much except that some cells are stronger than other and their potential is about 18ah down to unusable 2volts and even less down to 2.8volts(15-16ah if i remember from another thread)

I've always had a feeling something was not right with your opinion - have you actually touched the victpower cells, or is it just a magical feeling you get when you look at pictures of them?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If I can pull repeatedly pull 18ah from an LiFe cell this light, and a high discharge rate doesn't heat the cells and puff them up, I don't care if they are made of imitation cornflakes, I'll buy them all day long. Capacity and IR tell a pretty good story, a dozen or so cycles of the same WH discharge wraps it up with a happy ending.

-JD

[flathill]

Here is the dischrage curve provided by gebattery. Not sure if they are genuine but some cells output 20ah plus. I think these are korean cells. Who knows how well their equip was cal'd



Does anyone have any data on how the victpower cells sag at 5 or 10C?


cellman cell at 7c not 8c as stated

[Doctorbass]

Here is the dischrage curve provided by gebattery. Not sure if they are genuine but some cells output 20ah plus. I think these are korean cells.



Does anyone have any data on how the victpower cells sag at 5 or 10C?

I posted these data few pages ago Please read the entire thread before posting I spend time to test data and post them.. at least take the time to read them when replying something

Sampled cells over the entire batch at 20A (1C)

cell no 2 = 18.95Ah
cell no 20 = 18.96Ah
cell no 35 = 19.19Ah
cell no 47 = 19.31Ah
_________________________________________

UPDATE 8 APR 2012


I did a 5C ( 100A) continuous discharge test until 2.0V lvc at 22 degree C ambiant for the first 10 cells i have.

Here is the results:

Cell 1: 18.48Ah temp at the end: 52.7 celsius
Cell 2: 18.26Ah temp at the end: 51.8 celsius
Cell 3: 18.37Ah temp at the end: 52.0 celsius
Cell 4: 18.42Ah temp at the end: 52.3 celsius
Cell 5: 18.45Ah temp at the end: 52.5 celsius
Cell 6: 18.40Ah temp at the end: 52.0 celsius
Cell 7: 18.73Ah temp at the end: 53.2 celsius
Cell 8: 18.70Ah temp at the end: 51.7 celsius
Cell 9: 18.37Ah temp at the end: 51.6 celsius
Cell 10: 18.40Ah temp at the end: 52.1 celsius

Conclusion for the 10 first cells tested at 5C continuous: the capacity variation is 2.55%

_________________________________________
I got 2.94V nom at 100C ( 5C)

Doc

[oatnet]

My cells came from the same source but shipped via UPS to me in the states and had no such tag for what it's worth.

What did UPS charge you to clear them through customs?

[flathill]

Thanks Doc. I didn't see your 5C discharge curve, only the 1C. I remember you mentioned there was some error in the 5C curve. Was 2.94V nominal at 5C was based on your DMM, not the CBA, correct?

These cell are definitely looking like they are worth the gamble. Thanks for sharing.

[miro13car]

Doc , we all read your posts for sure.
It is all about comparison with A-grade A123.
Maybe some don't care here, but I am sure that some would like to see how close are your cells to OEM cells A123 sells to serious customers.
Flathill , nobody refers to A123 as Polymer cell, your graph is not serious one,
Second graph is not OF OEM A-grades cells for sure, celman never sold them.
You need some graphs from Mavizen or A123. And there are none.
So davec if you read this pls. get them and post them.

[ohzee]

My cells came from the same source but shipped via UPS to me in the states and had no such tag for what it's worth.

What did UPS charge you to clear them through customs?

Nothing - I paid the 147$ fee to ship and that's all I had to pay.

[pgt400]

First off NO ONE here, myself included knows if the victpower cells are grade A, B or Z. What WE do know from TESTING them is that they MEET the A123 grade A specs as posted by Mavizen and A123!....that is nominal 18.5 - 19.6ah at 1C discharge and capable of 22C discharge. In fact, ALL my 56 cells met this at 2C which is all I can do with my setup....Docbass and Jack Rickard both far exceeded this. Probably worth mentioning that some of the most knowledgable and most respected people on this and other EV forum's have bought, tested and as a result LOVE these cells...yet the ones inputing bogus information don't own a one!

[Doctorbass]

Thanks Doc. I didn't see your 5C discharge curve, only the 1C. I remember you mentioned there was some error in the 5C curve. Was 2.94V nominal at 5C was based on your DMM, not the CBA, correct?

These cell are definitely looking like they are worth the gamble. Thanks for sharing.

yes, the 2.94V nom at 5C is with my DMM but the CBa is calibrated really close to that value too.

[miro13car]

Everybody agree A123 grades their cells
This as you say nominal capacity covers grades A,B, all grades.
No way A123RC /Victpower are A grade.
No way they would be sold for that little.
Until somebody get and tests on CBA Agrade OEM we will never know what capacity they are capable of.
Maybe the best ones deliver 19.8-19.9Ah at 1C at just 2.5V cut off?
Who knows?

[pgt400]

Everybody agree A123 grades their cells
This as you say nominal capacity covers grades A,B, all grades.
No way A123RC /Victpower are A grade.
No way they would be sold for that little.
Until somebody get and tests on CBA Agrade OEM we will never know what capacity they are capable of.
Maybe the best ones deliver 19.8-19.9Ah at 1C at just 2.5V cut off?
Who knows?

No YOU say it covers all grades, sorry, but you just have no idea. FACT: The A123 from Victpower meet SAME spec as posted by Mavizan, as YOU call grade A.
A123 uses 2.0 as their LVC ....useable in real world? hell no. But its what they do.

[davec]

pgt - zoppa bought from victpower
here is the source http://randomev.wordpress.com/
the quality of the cells vary and keep in mind not all of us have the tools to check them
post your results after using these for 6 months- i'm not impressed with what i see so far.
these are truly 16 ah cells - the minute you start crashing below 3 volts- that's it- and if you look at the cba chart 16ah is where this starts happening
they seem to be manufacture defects- and you have to keep in mind when buying these- they might be close to meeting the specs but being defects you cant tell what surprise is down the road
i will post a graph on this thread once i hear back from Mavi so we can compare- may take a few weeks
justin at mavi is swamped with work but he did promise to do a 1c test for me.
i by no means am trying to downgrade any hard work thats been done- this thread is about seeing if these cells are worth it and testing

[dnmun]

no, do not post any more on this thread. go start your own thread if you want but get off this thread. you guys have totally trashed an otherwise really useful thread doc spent a lot of time creating the real data for.

you gave us no useful info or even a rational reason for being here.