A123 20Ah Quebec Group buy(Canada) cells ARRIVED 24.57$/cell

[Doctorbass]

Victpower are offering assembled A123 20Ah pack from EV industry too!

The seem to be the same one from the Chevy Volt !!

I know Jack Richard said he ordered one and shouldf get it soon and will review it.

Steveo might also be interested by those for one of his project:

____________________________________________________
Dear:Steveo
Here still has some other A123 modules ,
they are 7S3P 42S3P 1S1P 6S13PPls download as a attached
Price :42.8$ for 1s1p
Price :283.3$ for 7S3P
Price :1600.0$ for 42s3p
Price :1052.3$ for 6S13P

Best Regardsxin wang
Shenzhen Victpower Technology Co., Ltd.
T: 086 0755 89635916 | F: 086 0755 89635636 | M: 15810120194E: victpowersales@victpower.cn
W:http://www.victpower.cn


But maybe those pack are not the same quality and could be reject but we dont know.. let's see what results Jack will get...


http://www.victpower.cn/product/552766502-210447990/_42s3p_A123_Scalable_Prismatic_Module.html


http://www.victpower.cn/product/552771685-210447990/A123_Scalable_Prismatic_Module_7s3p_.html


http://www.victpower.cn/product/552778615-210447990/_6s13p_A123_Scalable_Prismatic_Module.html




That look interesting sicne they already have the connections.. and i wonder if they woudl sell just the case and connectinos without the cells to let us arrange they the way we want with some little mods..




Doc

[deVries]

Price :283.3$ for 7S3P

Great find Doc!

These are an even better price than bare cells!!!

Someone needs to sample these & then we can do a group buy of the minimum 100 order UNLESS they will sell in lower quantities.

I'll have battery $$$$ money next month in May, so I'm game for getting in on this deal. It's my belief these cells would be top quality, since these cells are already in modules as a basic building block for the final battery assembly & connections. It's very doubtful these would have any defects, imo. These are probably surplus stock, because demand never materialized as expected & orders were canceled, imo.

Someone who already knows their contact should ask for the weight & dimensions of these 7s3p modules. Please!

EDIT: I'm sooo excited about this module that I started a thread about whether we should do a group buy of these here... click link below...

Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!

[The Mighty Volt]

I just got an email from a Chinese supplier offering me B Grade A123. Thats the first time a supplier has every expressly and explicitly referred to the product as B-Grade and offered it accordingly.

[deVries]

I just got an email from a Chinese supplier offering me B Grade A123. Thats the first time a supplier has every expressly and explicitly referred to the product as B-Grade and offered it accordingly.

A fantastic opportunity to ask this supplier what is "their definition" of B-Grade. Is it A123's definition too?

All I seemed to have learned so far is that B-Grade is just the semantics of not being under contract with A123 directly, which that just means to me that resellers are getting the "A-Grade" from an A123 contract as surplus, cancelled orders, etc. So far, "B-Grade" seems to be "A-Grade" at least by the tolerance specifications given for an A123 battery. It does not mean lower quality or defect from what I've read so far...

Anyone know if I'm mistaken? Please correct me now!

[Ypedal]

Just because a statement cannot be proven false, does not make it true.

[The Mighty Volt]

Just because a statement cannot be proven false, does not make it true.

Agreed.

The truth of the matter is that nobody knows what the story is. Not yet.


We are in the dark. Or in the grey. What we are relying on is tests. Thats why I ordered my own CBA III so I can start to order, test, and post results.

Its up to everyone to try to get a cell and test it and post their results. Then we can cross-reference and come up with some accurate conclusions.

Not definite conclusions. Just accurate ones.

This entire A123 thing is so typical of the United States- brilliant academic and engineering minds, zero business integrity.

[miro13car]

Thread suppose to be about Victpower cells
You see don't dare to write about anything else HA HA

[The Mighty Volt]

Thread suppose to be about Victpower cells
You see don't dare to write about anything else HA HA

I know- I got banned from a thread because I shouted at a Canadian.

Anyways.....I will mail you when I get my CBA III and do some tests.

[miro13car]

But seriously ,those 7S 3P packs are so tempting to check them out

[Doctorbass]

But seriously ,those 7S 3P packs are so tempting to check them out

Yeah these are the perfect pack fo rthe zero motorcycle 2011 boostpack!!

from 58V to 84V in a blink of an eye!

[davec]

this is getting interesting indeed
i can accept the fact that some of the loose cells are factory rejects
but these assembled packs are a different story and the price is definitely right
makes me wonder where their getting all this stuff from- regardless hopefully there's some good cells in these things
can't waite to see the test results

[deVries]

Just because a statement cannot be proven false, does not make it true.

Agreed.

The truth of the matter is that nobody knows what the story is. Not yet.


We are in the dark. Or in the grey. What we are relying on is tests. Thats why I ordered my own CBA III so I can start to order, test, and post results.

Its up to everyone to try to get a cell and test it and post their results. Then we can cross-reference and come up with some accurate conclusions.

Not definite conclusions. Just accurate ones.

This entire A123 thing is so typical of the United States- brilliant academic and engineering minds, zero business integrity.

I agree with both of you too. I was only offering what I learned so far only offering pure speculation & opinion & wishful thinking & also going by Doctorbass' posts of test results of finding no defective cells out of 180 cells!

Now, we can move beyond some speculation with some news I found & posted in the 7s3p A123 module thread I started...

Here is what I found:

BTW, this is opinion, my opinion... I think these modules hitting the grey market shows the desperate financial state of A123. First they dumped loose cells, now they are dumping the modules. All off shore and in China, so (again IMHO) they are free of all legal obligations to ensure these are only sold to "qualified" individuals by US law.

I also think there is some mix of quality in the cells. If I had to guess I would think the cells sold months ago with cut tabs might be the poorest. They were dumped first (perhaps) and neutered by a company that was more healthy. Then they dumped production stockpiles that were aging. These cells may not have had all the QA done on them. So they may have undetected problems. Now I would bet that cells that made it into modules are darn good cells.

Just to follow-up further with what your interesting speculation is (see above) I found out from a news release what was the cause of the defect:

"The cause of the defects described today was faulty calibration of one of four welding machines in the Michigan plant that caused misalignment of a component in some cells, Vieau (he is the President of AONE) said today. The flaw could cause an electrical short, which could result in premature failure of the battery or decrease performance and reduce battery life, he said."

This probably means, IMO, imo, that there will be a small percentage of these cells we are getting that WILL HAVE this defect. Using the NASA test =or= whatever Doctorbass suggests we do for each cell, then we should be able to weed these out. I'm getting greedy now!

IF, yes, IF, we can harvest the good cells out of any defective module or good 7s3p, THEN we should get SUPER PRICING for these modules... AND, make good batteries by finding the 1%-10% that are defective, IMO, imo, of cells that are bad.

Here's the bottom line... A123 can not afford to find & replace the defective cells in the modules or batteries, so they are just going to dump all the gold & bits of coal en masse & be done with it. I think this is a golden opportunity to mine this gold... do I have "lithium fever"

Btw, at least some of these modules were likely destined for an expensive e-vehicle: $107,000 Fisker Karma model. The company admitted this defect affected 5 customers & it's going to cost them 55 million to replace the bad production runs. I think these cells should be high quality except for the ones effected by the faulty laser alignment, imo, IMO.

Either way, about 55 million in "surplus" product will be sold off to those willing to mine the lithium gold.

This is the link to the beginning of that thread: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!

[Doctorbass]

Chip Yates the world record holder for the fastest electric motorcycle is going to use the A123 cells 20Ah for his next project:

An AIRPLANE !!

These seem really similar and their package too than the one we are geting here!

These A123 and an airplane!

you can see them couples of time in that video

also on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/chipyates89/status/179261456322269184/photo/1




Doc

[deVries]

Here is what i think:
These cells was tested and tested and tested.. They are probably one of the most tested LifePo4 cells by independent tester, RC user and company … the Chevy Volt builder also have choosed them. Well.. the LiFePo4 nano chemistry that A123 developed is the lifepo4 best chemistry ever made.
Doc

Hi Doc, I know you bought some Nano LiPo a year+ or more ago from Hobby King.

How would you compare that HK LiPo nano chemistry to A123?

Also, what about the manufacture process of the cells? Is the manufacture or packaging of the A123 cells better than the way the Hobby King Nano LiPo is packaged or manufactured in your opinion. You have tested and used both chemistry types for more than a year now...

Your opinions from testing & experience are good enough information for me... after all, you have tested sooo many different cells & batteries & chemistry types that I think you offer an informed opinion, at least.

Thank you! Sir Battman!

[agniusm]

I was looking at the photos of the module. My thinking is that it has Korean cells in it. Note on the module test sticker: date 25.04.2011, tests passed, POS MBB, w/LOB but not NEG MBB and w/LOB of that. Don't know what that means. Now i assume that cells in the module will be marked as A2, cells i have with A2 marking all delivered around 19.3-19.8AH. Bad cells i have received were Korean marking. They all were at 0.00 volts, dead. I have to check serial number of the and that is represented i guess by PSD?V?O. I cant make out other numbers and i cant read the qr code ether. Room for thoughts
Cheers

[deVries]

I was looking at the photos of the module. My thinking is that it has Korean cells in it. Note on the module test sticker: date 25.04.2011, tests passed, POS MBB, w/LOB but not NEG MBB and w/LOB of that. Don't know what that means. Now i assume that cells in the module will be marked as A2, cells i have with A2 marking all delivered around 19.3-19.8AH. Bad cells i have received were Korean marking. They all were at 0.00 volts, dead. I have to check serial number of the and that is represented i guess by PSD?V?O. I cant make out other numbers and i cant read the qr code ether. Room for thoughts
Cheers

Thanks for the information.

What company did you buy the Dead Cells from?

Were the Dead Cells sold in a module of many cells or sold individually & sent as a single cell?

What percentage of Dead Cells did you receive vs good cells?

Did you get an exchange warranty for Dead Cells for DOA?

I wonder which A123 customer is assembling e-vehicles in Korea?

(The defective cells were all made in the USA.)

Thanks! "Agniusm"

[agniusm]

I was looking at the photos of the module. My thinking is that it has Korean cells in it. Note on the module test sticker: date 25.04.2011, tests passed, POS MBB, w/LOB but not NEG MBB and w/LOB of that. Don't know what that means. Now i assume that cells in the module will be marked as A2, cells i have with A2 marking all delivered around 19.3-19.8AH. Bad cells i have received were Korean marking. They all were at 0.00 volts, dead. I have to check serial number of the and that is represented i guess by PSD?V?O. I cant make out other numbers and i cant read the qr code ether. Room for thoughts
Cheers

Thanks for the information.

What company did you buy the Dead Cells from?

Were the Dead Cells sold in a module of many cells or sold individually & sent as a single cell?

Did you get an exchange warranty for Dead Cells for DOA?

I wonder which A123 customer is assembling e-vehicles in Korea?

(The defective cells were all made in the USA.)

Thanks! "Agniusm"

There is whole thread on the issue. This is why i post this, the cells were from same victpower(Read here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=33939)
All matters were solved.
I bought 24 cells, 6 of them were USA made and all good, 18 cells made in Korea and all dead. I read somebody received Korean cells all pushing out 18+Ah, less than 19 thou, could be factory/line fault?

EDIT: The serial number was starting TOJXXXXXXXXX, so it is not from bad bulk that i got

[Doctorbass]

Here is what i think:
These cells was tested and tested and tested.. They are probably one of the most tested LifePo4 cells by independent tester, RC user and company … the Chevy Volt builder also have choosed them. Well.. the LiFePo4 nano chemistry that A123 developed is the lifepo4 best chemistry ever made.
Doc

Hi Doc, I know you bought some Nano LiPo a year+ or more ago from Hobby King.

How would you compare that HK LiPo nano chemistry to A123?

Also, what about the manufacture process of the cells? Is the manufacture or packaging of the A123 cells better than the way the Hobby King Nano LiPo is packaged or manufactured in your opinion. You have tested and used both chemistry types for more than a year now...

Your opinions from testing & experience are good enough information for me... after all, you have tested sooo many different cells & batteries & chemistry types that I think you offer an informed opinion, at least.

Thank you! Sir Battman!

Hmm.. Well the lipo i have and the only lipo i ordered from now are the turnigy 30C and the zippy 20C pack. I never havd the nanotech from now, but i know they are more powerfull as well.

As well the manufacture process of the A123 is way better than the lipo !

you will never see any commercial A123 EV battery that are built in a shrink tube or using JST connectors or.. 12 gauge wires that are described to support 100Acontinuous and 150A burst... or like the nanotech, some 10 or 8 gauge wire that could support 450A

RC battery are not made to endure the same conditions and to pass the same test level than any commercial A123!.

Doc

[davec]

1c results from Mavi

so we have it- the vict cells sag under 3volts at 15-16AH based on Doc bass chart- and the legitimate mavi cells are down to 3volts at 18ah
19.79ah down to 2volt LVC

vict cells do not meet the specs- zoppa hit the nail on the head - their cells are truly 16ah- the shortcomings are obvious- why are they not meeting the full specs? used/recycled/manufacture defects? no idea.
hence the reason we are getting them so cheap.

EDIT- i am not convinced- you can claim 18-19 but if you look at the chart and how well it holds the voltage it's clear the mavi are superior and meet the specs - a) it still has not been proven how many cycles can be had from these. and what is wrong with these. b) and if you go back those docbass charts- Okay out of 3 cells he had 1 strong cell that might have reached 16.6-17ah and than sagged under 3 volts the majority of the cells cut off at 15-16... same with the other tests i have seen from zoppa/ everyone else. once down your in the 2v territory you basically out low on juice.

the cells do not meet the a123 quality specs.


case closed.

i can get 10c-20c if anyone cares for the results- or any other C

a123.jpg

results

(75.37 KiB) Downloaded 2 times

[pgt400]

1c results from Mavi

so we have it- the vict cells sag under 3volts at 15-16AH based on Doc bass chart- and the legitimate mavi cells are down to 3volts at 18ah
19.79ah down to 2volt LVC

vict cells do not meet the specs- zoppa hit the nail on the head - their cells are truly 16ah- the shortcomings are obvious- why are they not meeting the full specs? used/recycled/manufacture defects? no idea.
hence the reason we are getting them so cheap.

case closed.

a123.jpg

Not at all! Mavi's spec is "Nominal Capacity: 18.5Ah min, 19.6ah nom" down to 2v right from their website and plot....All that graph proves is that they just sent you the VERY best plot they had!...actually above their spec @19.7 Doc's cells and mine all vary by about 1 ah. Look at Docs cell #47 very close to 18ah at 3v. They are definately new non recycled cycles....are they A or B grade? Can't tell, what you have proven though is that they MEET Mavis spec. Thanks you! Anyway, who cares about 1AH at this price? These cells are hot due to their low internal resistance, low weight. Suggest you buy 50 Mavi cells and test them....you can bet they will not all be the same as this one!

[miro13car]

All my cells from Victpower deliver over 19Ah until 2V cut off.
They deliver even more until 2.5V .
Except 3 cells which has mechanical defects-no isolation around terminals
Which suppose to isolate terminal from pouch and Victpower refuse so far to replace.

[bigmoose]

micro could you (or did you and I missed it) post close up pictures of the teflon insulation missing around the terminal tabs. That could be important in our "detective work" with respect to these "hidden defects".

[miro13car]

I am on mobile iPod now when I get home I will publish pictures
Where terminal meet pouch clear isolation from thin plastic should bee seen
It isolate terminal from silver pouch.
It is serious mechanical fault because if terminal touches pouch you know what might happen

[oatnet]

used/recycled/manufacture defects? no idea.hence the reason we are getting them so cheap. case closed.

Thank goodness the case is closed, I hope that is the last we hear of your opinons on the topic. We have all heard your concerns, and I highly, highly recommend that you do not purchase any of these a123 pouches because it is obvious they don't meet your design requirements. I don't think anyone here has a need or desire to convince you otherwise.

I am an early adopter who was been using the a123 Prisimatics in a variety of applications for 2+ years. I recently bought (110) cells from VictPower, and they are NEW, and of better quality than the cells I bought 2 years ago. Unfortunately, my real-world testing does not align with your paper arguments. Even if your assertions had some basis in reality, we have been using used/recycled/manufacturing defect cells in this hobby since Endless Sphere started, so I STILL wouldn't think twice about buying them at this price.

Now that we have heard your opinions, and you feel the case is closed, for the rest of us who find the cells DO meet our design requirements, do you mind if continue to purchase, use, and discuss them? Or will you not be happy unless we send our pristine unused cells back to China and burn our fully functioning packs on a pyre built from puffed lipo packs shorted red-to-black?

-JD

PS - I thought it important to share a picture of the pack you built from these cells; it looks like you may have gotten crap no-tab cells from somewhere, and are projecting that ALL a123 is like that. Note that I got this picture from your sales thread, because you haven't bothered to share the build thread or for that matter contribute any content to this forum - most of your 42 posts here are trash-talking the a123 prisimatics. Despite that, this is what you have to say about "used/recycled/manufacture defects" when YOU use them:

he tested a bunch of these cells from the batch before selling them to make sure they deliever 20ah- there is a video of him testing the cells over 10c with a cba- they are impressive
they've been used a few times back and forth- i dont think i put more than 50 cycles on them - but i can say these are the best cells i've ever owned next to lipo

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=38448&p=561361#p561361


PPS, you know that generic foam you used is HIGHLY flammable, right? Essentially, Gasoline in stasis? Like a good spark could light the whole thing up?

Edit: It appears that davec was so embarassed by his pack, that he deleted the picture. Fortunately, I saved a copy in my "Hall of Awefulness" so this gem would not be lost.

[oatnet]

A PM from the noob:

Sent: Wed May 02, 2012 10:16 am
From: davec
To: oatnet
can you kindly remove your post?
i dont see it as having relevance to the discussion of the thread
this is an EV community- not a bashing community
im only posting facts for folks who wanto hear about these cells- you dont like what you hear dont listen.
thx

Dave - NO, I will not remove my post. You seem to miss the fact that most of your 42 posts are bashing posts, and that the folks you think "want to hear about these cells" have repeatedly asked you to SHUT UP. You have negligable experience with these cells, or this hobby, and you are actively spreading disinformation. You have yet to contribute a build thread or any content to E:S, so I am not sure why you think you have a critical perspective to share. The only thing I see you having built, the pack utilizing highly flammable foam, is incredibly dangerous.

That said, you are welcome to have an opinon that is not based in the real world, so do you mind if those of us with real, practical experience have our opinions, or are you going to hump our legs like a crazed weiner dog every time someone mentions a123 prisimatics?

-JD