Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!

[deVries]

Funny thing is, they asked me if I want to get a module without the casing around them without offering 1$ of discount... Doesn't really make sense, they offer me less without offering me anything off...

Was it with the bus bars welded too? The exact same module just no "casing"?

Ask for a picture of a module without casing.

[oatnet]

I got an email saying that the 42s3p did not materialize, but offering me 28s3p and 7s3p - not what I wanted, but I can roll with the changes. That said, if I did not already have money in, I would be waiting to see how this shook out for other members first.

-JD

[deVries]

I got an email saying that the 42s3p did not materialize, but offering me 28s3p and 7s3p - not what I wanted, but I can roll with the changes. That said, if I did not already have money in, I would be waiting to see how this shook out for other members first.

-JD

It seems they're selling you something they physically do not have control over, so maybe they just resell for someone else that controls the inventory?

Of course, it is possible to string in series the 7s3p x 6 = 42s3p. You could ask for a price match on shipping & the 42s3p and get the same amount of battery IF you're willing to string the 6 modules in series.

Did they just refund your money?

[oatnet]

It seems they're selling you something they physically do not have control over, so maybe they just resell for someone else that controls the inventory?

That is one of many many possible scenarios, and this type of situation is pretty typical when dealing with vendors China. The placid surface image on the surface masks the chaos underneath, the seller may promise many things but in the end you will get what they have. The more you try to haggle and define and constrain the deal, the less service and worse product you end up with. To be fair, I am sure they get their share of sketchy buyers, or buyers who want to nail them down on details they simply don't have.

The reality is the only leverage you have is whether you return to buy more, and some vendors may not even care about that. My best relationships have been vendors who recognize that I buy a whole lot of hardware, and that I am easy to sell to, and want my business. My first order with Victpower (for separate cells) went smooth as silk, I hope this one sorts out, so I can place many more orders.

Of course, it is possible to string in series the 7s3p x 6 = 42s3p. You could ask for a price match on shipping & the 42s3p and get the same amount of battery IF you're willing to string the 6 modules in series.
Did they just refund your money?

Refund?

I simply asked for 28s3p and (3) 7s3p to get to the same 49s3p, and received a promise of a tracking number soon. I hope that they come with the full case.

-JD

[deVries]

I'll be watching this thread closely. I'm looking at this for hybrid car or small EV applications.
It would be helpful to know some of the dimensions, especially the 42s3p.
To provide more flexibility of configuration, it might be easier to be easier to do six of the 7s3p instead. (But would cost a bit more.)

There may be a "shortage" or spot availability of the 42s3p. Some people are posting issues getting this configuration.

Everyone seems to be able to get the 7s3p so far. Also, you can figure your measurements for this size module. Measurements for 7s3p module are posted by Sutho in this thread.

Measurement is *not* confirmed by actual receipt yet:

7s3p Module Measurement.jpg (192.96 KiB) Viewed 861 times

[EVPowers]

7S3P @ $334.00
Shipping @ $200.00(to Canada)
PayPal: $21.36
Total: $555.36

For those keeping score at home who plan to try to take apart the packs ... this works out to about $26.45 per cell.
A bit more than the last group buy ($24.57)( viewtopic.php?f=14&t=37955 ), but possibly more work to take everything apart.

A123 (42s3p) Scalable Prismatic Module price 1600.0$
A123 (7s3p) Scalable Prismatic Module Price 283.3.$
Goods price :1883.3$
Shipping cost :780.9$
If via paypal to pay ,will has a bit transfer fee 104.2$
So in total: 2768.4$.

This works out to about $19 per cell.

[deVries]

7S3P @ $334.00
Shipping @ $200.00(to Canada)
PayPal: $21.36
Total: $555.36

For those keeping score at home who plan to try to take apart the packs ... this works out to about $26.44 per cell.
A bit more than the last group buy ($24.57)( viewtopic.php?f=14&t=37955 ), but possibly more work to take everything apart.

That price above is in Canadian dollars.

[EVPowers]

That price above is in Canadian dollars.

D-oh!

[zEEz]

OH SH*T!
It looks like I cannot reach this 2012 summer without to buy a battery pack?
YOU TEASERS!
So you tell me that for just 1000$ I can get 72V and 60Ah of fatty A123 ?????
Anybody asked how much is shipping to Europe?
This Pack would solve and complete my fun-enduro-project

have fun!

[deVries]

OH SH*T!
It looks like I cannot reach this 2012 summer without to buy a battery pack?
YOU TEASERS!
So you tell me that for just 1000$ I can get 72V and 60Ah of fatty A123 ?????
Anybody asked how much is shipping to Europe?
This Pack would solve and complete my fun-enduro-project

have fun!

7s3p in quantity of 3 x $283 = 75v 60Ah 3.6v per cell Top-Off Surface Charge

$849.00 *plus* shipping!

Quote is in US Dollars & will get you 75v 60A in *three* 7s3p modules. Of course, you could order a 28s3p module too at 100v 60Ah, but that may be too big in size, volts, etc.

[mistercrash]

7S3P @ $334.00

A123 (7s3p) Scalable Prismatic Module Price 283.3.$

I don't really get that, how come a Canadian citizen has to pay $334.00 for a 7S3P module and a US citizen only pays $283.00. There's less than 2 pennies difference with the Canadian and US dollars in favor of the CND right now. The price should be the same. I don't understand the big difference in shipping fees either. I might email Xin Wang about that.

http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert/?Amount=283.00&From=USD&To=CAD

[deVries]

7S3P @ $334.00

A123 (7s3p) Scalable Prismatic Module Price 283.3.$

I don't really get that, how come a Canadian citizen has to pay $334.00 for a 7S3P module and a US citizen only pays $283.00. There's less than 2 pennies difference with the Canadian and US dollars in favor of the CND right now. The price should be the same. I don't understand the big difference in shipping fees either. I might email Xin Wang about that.

http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert/?Amount=283.00&From=USD&To=CAD

I'm *guessing* it is higher because of higher Customs & Import Duties the shipper has to pay to clear Customs in Canada.

[mistercrash]

Don't worry I know all about those "extra fees" we Canadians have to pay to get stuff across the border but there's something like $100 difference total for one module, that's a big difference. Custom fees and import duties would only account for the $50 increase in shipping fees but don't explain the $50 increase in the selling price. Anyway, I did email Xin Wang to get some kind of explanation about it. Only if I get something concrete from her will I post back here to inform Canadian buyers of what to expect.

[SlyCayer]

7S3P @ $334.00
Shipping @ $200.00(to Canada)
PayPal: $21.36
Total: $555.36

For those keeping score at home who plan to try to take apart the packs ... this works out to about $26.44 per cell.
A bit more than the last group buy ($24.57)( viewtopic.php?f=14&t=37955 ), but possibly more work to take everything apart.

That price above is in Canadian dollars.

Price is in USD but coming to Canada, Ontario. that is for 1 7S3P pack, so keep in mind that shipping goes down per "cell" more you purchase.

[SlyCayer]

I'm *guessing* it is higher because of higher Customs & Import Duties the shipper has to pay to clear Customs in Canada.

Correction, the receiver pays the brokerage and any involved fees, he told me that.

[davec]

so what type of work are we looking at to rip this pack apart?
simply removing screws- or do you need a dremel to cut metal to get the tabs out - i do wonder...
i guess we'll find out when someone receives the pack- the price is right on these --and these seem legit- hopefully not from used sources but even so its a deal if their not worn out too much- i dont think anyone has that much time on your hands to assemble illegitimate packs...

[deVries]

Price is in USD but coming to Canada, Ontario. that is for 1 7S3P pack, so keep in mind that shipping goes down per "cell" more you purchase.

I'm *guessing* it is higher because of higher Customs & Import Duties the shipper has to pay to clear Customs in Canada.

Correction, the receiver pays the brokerage and any involved fees, he told me that.

Now I'm confused.

[SlyCayer]

Now I'm confused.

I am even more confused, look at their answer in my last email, it's so funny, bunch of idiots are scamming people with different prices and then... Well look at the answer, it made me laugh a little.

Why do Chinese peeps do things like that? Firstly here is the email I am emailing: "andy.wang@victpower.cn" So it's Andy Wang, and then the name tag to that email is "ziying yang", Andy and Ziying is 2 different names unless Ziying and Andy is the same for Chinese distributors, and then in the signature "Cherry", so who the hell am I emailing with? Cherry? Andy? or Ziying?

Email:

On 4/26/2012 9:26 PM, ziying yang wrote:
>
> Hello Cayer,
> OK, i will send u 100% packs, pls tell me your address and phone number, then we can ship to u.
> Rgs
> Cherry
>
> -------------------------- Original Mail --------------------------
>
> Sent Date: April 27, 2012 8:48 Friday
> From: Sylvain Cayer <sales@nabatteries.com>
> Reply To: (null)
> Recipients: ziying yang <andy.wang@victpower.cn>
> Subject: Re: ,A123 Prismatic module
>
> Hi,
>
> Is there a reason why I paid $50 more then some of my friends on the modules? Is there a reason why I paid 100$ more then if one my friends gets it from you guys and gets it shipped in the U.S?
>
> I am feeling a little disgusted by that.
> Thank you,
>
> Sylvain Cayer
>
> sales@nabatteries.com

Why is she/he telling me he will be sending me 100% packs when I am asking why I had to pay more? Avoiding the question that kills?

I am eager to get this module so I can test and look at it further, but if this wouldn't be for that, I would NEVER purchase from them as they are very unorganized and look like scammers with their prices.

[zEEz]

> OK, i will send u 100% packs, pls tell me your address and phone number, then we can ship to u.

this is very funny but is alerting me a bit in case I want to order from them.
Up to now I got from HK and China good things in reasonable way only thru ebay-paypal ...
But also I luckily met on the internet a very reliable guy in China to order electronic parts
with a dependable behaviour, except for the expensive shipping methods he uses to reach Europe

Cannot say more, I wait a bit and look to what you all are getting, hoping for a further bargain
Good luck!

[bigmoose]

Here is some teardown information starting to come out on the modules. These links start to show the electronics in the integral module BMS. It is a custom ASIC module LG Chem L9763., so no data sheet is going to be forthcoming...

http://www.driveforinnovation.com/volt-teardown-the-battery-pack?cid=NL_UBM+Electronics
http://www.driveforinnovation.com/volt-teardown-battery-pack-parts-list?cid=NL_UBM+Electronics
http://www.driveforinnovation.com/volt-teardown-battery-pack-slide-presentation?cid=NL_UBM+Electronics

[CyclemotorEngineer]

Bigmoose,

Chevy volt packs described in teardown do not include A123 mfg cells, since the Volt cells operate at 4 V, not 3.3. Am I missing something here?

Here is some fairly recent news about the on-again-off-again-GM-A123 courting, from:
http://www.mitechnews.com/articles.asp?id=13932&sec=104

"Friday, December 09, 2011

GM Changes Chevy Volt Batter Supplier - A123 Gets Nod Over LG Chem

DETROIT – The latest news on the Chevrolet Volt is that General Motors is going to change battery suppliers. GM had been buying lithium-metal-oxide batteries from LG Chem. Now it will switch to lithium-phosphate batteries from A123. The lithium-phosphate batteries are less likely to catch fire if damaged, but they hold about 10 percent less energy, so that could impact the Volt's pure-electric driving range."

[oatnet]

I don't really get that, how come a Canadian citizen has to pay $334.00 for a 7S3P module and a US citizen only pays $283.00 ... The price should be the same. ... I might email Xin Wang about that.

Is there a reason why I paid $50 more then some of my friends on the modules? Is there a reason why I paid 100$ more then if one my friends gets it from you guys and gets it shipped in the U.S?

Yes, the reason is because that is the deal you mis-negotiated. When I contacted Xin, I quoted the $283.30 price Doc posted on his thread, which was re-posted on page 2 of THIS thread, and that is what I got. I would guess that you asked "how much for a 7s3p" -- which is a guaranteed way to pay a Chinese vendor MORE, because you just told them you don't know what the going price is.

You could have used the pricing data I shared when you negotiate the price of your NEXT purchase. But gee thanks for raising a stink about the deal you already mis-negotiated, because Xin came back to me with a "shipping increase" of $100, which I will now have to pay on each of my 4-5 subsequent orders. I'll get penalized $600 for sharing pricing data with folks who abuse it. So Thanks for throwing me under the bus before my deal even shipped, and be assured I will NOT be making the mistake of sharing pricing info again.

it's so funny, bunch of idiots are scamming people with different prices and then...

No, what is funny here is idiots who expect vendors in China to behave like vendors in the USA. When you deal with a Chinese vendor, there is NO FIXED PRICE LIKE THE USA, IT IS A NEGOTIATION. That is how business is done in China, and I am sure they think it is hilarious we expect a fixed price. Further, if we were Chinese in China, we would probably pay USD 75 for a 7s3p, but we start with the Rich American price. The best negotating technique is to KNOW what the market value is, tell them what you want and how much you want to pay, and NOT extort them for warrantees and promises that nobody will be around to service anyhow.

so who the hell am I emailing with? Cherry? Andy? or Ziying?

Who knows, who cares, what does it matter? This is SOP for dealing with Chinese Vendors, it is all smoke and mirrors, the standard picture of a vendor's "Factory" is always some other building, and I suspect that the standard picture of a cute female is typically a front that a male salesman uses to disarm the customer.

I would NEVER purchase from them as they are very unorganized and look like scammers with their prices.

Interesting words from the guy who is still selling a123 prisimatics for $55. I thought $55 was crazy when everyone was buying them for $35, then $25, and now >$18. http://www.jccayer.com/category.php?catbrand=A123&promo=on&

=============================

BigMoose, thanks for the details on the BMS, that is immensely helpful.

-JD

[zEEz]

No, what is funny here is idiots who expect vendors in China to behave like vendors in the USA. When you deal with a Chinese vendor, there is NO FIXED PRICE LIKE THE USA, IT IS A NEGOTIATION. That is how business is done in China, and I am sure they think it is hilarious we expect a fixed price. Further, if we were Chinese in China, we would probably pay USD 75 for a 7s3p, but we start with the Rich American price. The best negotating technique is to KNOW what the market value is, tell them what you want and how much you want to pay, and NOT extort them for warrantees and promises that nobody will be around to service anyhow.

Big Thumb Up to oatnet and his post and sorry for how things turned up ...

Just as a reminder, from my experience about Chinese vendors and prices, since this is not pointed out in the last post
and could be useful to avoid further errors ...
Usually they like negotiation on the price, this is true, but there is a caveat: if you propose something too low
-and here it is anyone guess- they will put you in the -BADASS BUYER GROUP- and I can assure you that even if maybe
you will receive something at all from them, it will be for sure broken, damaged, underperforming and so on ...
BUT IT IS YOUR FAULT !!!! NEGOTIATION has a 'BON TON' LIMIT! that in this case is the street price of A123 rejects ...
This is just to avoid now someone going to propose for a 7s3p something like 120$ and than pretending to receive
a working battery instead of a lemon ....

have fun!

[oatnet]

Usually they like negotiation on the price, this is true, but there is a caveat: if you propose something too low -and here it is anyone guess- they will put you in the -BADASS BUYER GROUP- and I can assure you that even if maybe you will receive something at all from them, it will be for sure broken, damaged, underperforming and so on ...

Very good point. They already know what they want to make on a deal, so if you negotiate too low, there are a million ways to make up the loss, usually by delivering the worst of their product. OTOH, they will always try to charge whatever the market will bear, and will take advantage where they can, so if you don't negotiate them down, you will get labeled as a stupid rich american and get average product.

A quicker route to get the S.R.A. label is to hassle them on specs, demand a warrantee, or otherwise conduct business in a non-Chinese fashion. Frankly, I can't out-negotiate most Chinese vendors - so I always start out knowing the market, knowing what the price should be, then I ask for that price and am ready to walk away if I don't get it.

-JD

[zEEz]

A quicker route to get the S.R.A. label is to hassle them on specs, demand a warrantee, or otherwise conduct business in a non-Chinese fashion. Frankly, I can't out-negotiate most Chinese vendors - so I always start out knowing the market, knowing what the price should be, then I ask for that price and am ready to walk away if I don't get it.

I cannot agree more and it seems it is worth repeating this pearls of experience ....
GUARANTEE: come on, you are sitting millions Km from them .... shipping is more expensive than product ....
Your only chance is to behave fine with them in order to hope they are not intentionally going to screw you.
Evidently, if you harass them with bad words via email, what you expect to have back?
For the rest, it is evident you are dealing with a kind of bargain, so it is a 50-50 chance operation

have fun!