Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!

[Green Machine]

Does anyone know the dimensions of that pack? IT may be a perfect fit for a bike I am building to sale and in that case will need 50 of them.

[Doctorbass]

What is a "Bauer" module test?

I'm your detective guys

I think i found a certain Josh bauer wich is often refered to in many battery test about thermal effect:

I found his name in this article:

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2011/electrochemical_storage/es110_smith_2011_p.pdf

there is Richard Shosey a test ingeneer at A123 system that is a project manager at Bauer controls : http://www.linkedin.com/pub/richard-shosey/16/428/30



Here is Bauer control website:http://www.bauercontrols.com/Bauer_Controls/Welcome.html

They say: "We solve problems"..

I guess they should have alot of job these days

Doc

[The Mighty Volt]

There is also a guy in Ireland who uses the online name of "Jack Bauer"- and he has built an EV.

Coincidence? Possibly.

[miro13car]

I would love to know what test Bauer conducted on this 7S3P pack
It is definitely gamble to buy such pack, cells harvested from those packs can be better on average than sold separate ones

[deVries]

Yes it's A123 cells and A123 PACK !

Please read and see the video.. it is clear!

Doc

Where is the video?

Here is the post Doctorbass did with the video:

Victpower ALSO OFFER ASSEMBLED BATTERY that look like the same as FOR TEH CHEVY VOLT MODULE "!

at cheap price!!

Dear:Steveo
> Here still has some other A123 modules , they are 7S3P 42S3P 1S1P 6S13P
>
> Pls download as a attached
>
> Price :42.8$ for 1s1p
>
> Price :283.3$ for 7S3P
>
> Price :1600.0$ for 42s3p
>
> Price :1052.3$ for 6S13P
>

http://www.victpower.cn/product/552766502-210447990/_42s3p_A123_Scalable_Prismatic_Module.html

http://www.victpower.cn/product/552778615-210447990/_6s13p_A123_Scalable_Prismatic_Module.html

http://www.victpower.cn/product/552771685-210447990/A123_Scalable_Prismatic_Module_7s3p_.html

here is the price list Steveo got form them

not bad!! they already have the connections!!:

The 7s3p look interesting! 4 of them give close to 100V pack and 60Ah !... and for... 1100$!

see at 20sec of this vid how they look like when asseembled:


JUMP TO 20sec and to 2min54




We see these packs are exactly the same as Victpower are offering.

Another showing the ingeneering fo that battery:


Jump at 1:00



Doc

[bigmoose]

I don't think this was posted. Here is what these modules may look like inside, and what accessories to look for:

A123DevopmentSummary2010-BatteryPackExploded.pdf

(681.13 KiB) Downloaded 225 times

Here is a frame grab of the laser welding the Tabs on the A123 Modules:

A123LaserWeldingTabs.jpg (45.75 KiB) Viewed 1538 times

BTW, this is opinion, my opinion... I think these modules hitting the grey market shows the desperate financial state of A123. First they dumped loose cells, now they are dumping the modules. All off shore and in China, so (again IMHO) they are free of all legal obligations to ensure these are only sold to "qualified" individuals by US law.

I also think there is some mix of quality in the cells. If I had to guess I would think the cells sold months ago with cut tabs might be the poorest. They were dumped first (perhaps) and neutered by a company that was more healthy. Then they dumped production stockpiles that were aging. These cells may not have had all the QA done on them. So they may have undetected problems. Now I would bet that cells that made it into modules are darn good cells. Hopefully the BMS didn't kill them sitting on the shelf.

Also note that A123 may have laser welded tabs on the modules. Till someone takes it apart we don't know the tab length. I would not assume full tabs after you "cut them apart" to make 1P strings.

[deVries]

BTW, this is opinion, my opinion... I think these modules hitting the grey market shows the desperate financial state of A123. First they dumped loose cells, now they are dumping the modules. All off shore and in China, so (again IMHO) they are free of all legal obligations to ensure these are only sold to "qualified" individuals by US law.

Wholly crap! Hopefully, there is *not* some US federal laws regulating & restricting these batteries to "qualified" buyers & individuals? Probably what you meant is there are legal but private distribution agreements for the supply chain of various buyers of A123 in the USA, so there are private legal agreements about distribution that have to be fulfilled to avoid lawsuits or unhappy distributors & customer "captive product" contracts. Exporting from China back to the US avoids these legal pitfalls by selling through 3rd party resellers located in China. Yep, these seem like reasonable explanations to me too.

Hopefully the BMS didn't kill them sitting on the shelf.

This should not be a concern, hopefully, since this specific reseller company is selling the cells with a supposed 1 year warranty whatever that is. Perhaps the modules will come with that warranty too?

Certainly, each module will be checked before shipping for any dead cells or other basic detectable failures that are known to occur, imo. IMO.

[x88x]

BTW, this is opinion, my opinion... I think these modules hitting the grey market shows the desperate financial state of A123. First they dumped loose cells, now they are dumping the modules. All off shore and in China, so (again IMHO) they are free of all legal obligations to ensure these are only sold to "qualified" individuals by US law.

Wholly crap! Hopefully, there is *not* some US federal laws regulating & restricting these batteries to "qualified" buyers & individuals?

No, he's referencing A123's internal policy to not deal with DIYers.

[MitchJi]

Hi,

If the cells are good and usable as is or its practical to separate the welded cells (thanks bigmoose) it might be awesome price .

I'll check on the weight and dimensions next week...

I said might be an awesome price because depending on the weight and dimensions the shipping premium could make up for the cheaper price. So when you inquire about size and weight please ask about shipping prices.

It's my belief these cells would be top quality, since these cells are already in modules as a basic building block for the final battery assembly & connections. It's very doubtful these would have any defects, imo. These are probably surplus stock, because demand never materialized as expected & orders were canceled, imo.

The picture I found & posted above that Victpower provides for the 7s3p looks like a quality product. The inspection date is in 2011, so I'm thinking these are considered to be outdated 'now' to put in a new vehicle manufactured in 2012.

Hopefully the BMS didn't kill them sitting on the shelf.

This should not be a concern, hopefully, since this specific reseller company is selling the cells with a supposed 1 year warranty whatever that is. Perhaps the modules will come with that warranty too?

Certainly, each module will be checked before shipping for any dead cells or other basic detectable failures that are known to occur, imo. IMO.

You are making a LOT of assumptions that could turn out to be wishful thinking.

For a bicycle it's awesome, because you won't have to cycle the battery often & have the hassle of recharging nearly as often as a 20Ah vs 60Ah.

OTOH if you only need 20AH you will be hauling around the size and weight of 20AH SLA .

[bigmoose]

Right. This is why companies put statements such as this in their terms and conditions of sale that they typically now make us agree to, by checking a box, before the purchase order is approved.

6. Buyer’s Use. Buyer assumes sole responsibility for analyzing and determining the suitability of any services and goods supplied by Seller including all parts and components and Buyer agrees that it is not relying on Seller in making such determination even if Seller provided assistance, guidance or design. Buyer assumes full responsibility for any particular use or purpose. Buyer will not order or use any goods or services unless it is satisfied that the goods and services are suitable for Buyer’s use and conform to all of its requirements. Buyer agrees to store and use all goods and services in a safe manner. Seller is cautioning Buyer that not all products are stable under all operating and storage conditions. ... etc.

Where the sticky point is, I was told, is the determination of the suitability of the buyer. In other words, is the buyer competent to assess the true risk of his purchase. This is where the buyer can sue the seller for not fully disclosing all potential hazards with the product. ... think extension of the "I didn't know the coffee was hot enough to burn me "down there..." in other words saying to the seller, "You should have been smart enough not to sell this hazardous product to me..."

[heathyoung]

Woah. Seriously - Woah!

I think I have found the ultimate batteries for the Vectrix!

Dimensions on these would be very useful, need 42 series which would be 6 of these modules. Needs to fit in a 700mm X 230mm X 300mm space.

Minimum order sucks though. Group buy anyone?

Are they selling samples? Thats so damn cool.

http://www.victpower.cn/product/5527665 ... odule.html

882mm + long - dang!

[deVries]

You are making a LOT of assumptions that could turn out to be wishful thinking.

Of course, everything I'm writing about these 7s3p modules regarding quality & condition is pure speculation & wishful thinking noted as: imo. IMO. At least Doctorbass is very pleased with these cells because of actual test results. It's likely the cells in the modules are at least as good if not better, IMO. imo.

For a bicycle it's awesome, because you won't have to cycle the battery often & have the hassle of recharging nearly as often as a 20Ah vs 60Ah.

OTOH if you only need 20AH you will be hauling around the size and weight of 20AH SLA .

A 48v 42 cell pack in 14s3p 60Ah is going to weigh in at about 44-lbs just for the cells, so this 60Ah setup is obviously *not* for some high performance maneuvering bicycle or trail bike unless we bump-up to motorcycle or dirt-moped format.

Hopefully, the 7s3p cells can be harvested separately to make 2p or 1p configurations too. For $283 + shipping one could get a 75v 20Ah pack at 22-lbs for the cells.

I said might be an awesome price because depending on the weight and dimensions the shipping premium could make up for the cheaper price. So when you inquire about size and weight please ask about shipping prices.

Yeah, this is very important to check this out fully. Shipping & customs can definitely change things vs bare cells.

Thanks! for your input. All good points. I'll remain optimistic for now...

[deVries]

BTW, this is opinion, my opinion... I think these modules hitting the grey market shows the desperate financial state of A123. First they dumped loose cells, now they are dumping the modules. All off shore and in China, so (again IMHO) they are free of all legal obligations to ensure these are only sold to "qualified" individuals by US law.

I also think there is some mix of quality in the cells. If I had to guess I would think the cells sold months ago with cut tabs might be the poorest. They were dumped first (perhaps) and neutered by a company that was more healthy. Then they dumped production stockpiles that were aging. These cells may not have had all the QA done on them. So they may have undetected problems. Now I would bet that cells that made it into modules are darn good cells.

Just to follow-up further with what your interesting speculation is (see above) I found out from a news release what was the cause of the defect:

"The cause of the defects described today was faulty calibration of one of four welding machines in the Michigan plant that caused misalignment of a component in some cells, Vieau (he is the President of AONE) said today. The flaw could cause an electrical short, which could result in premature failure of the battery or decrease performance and reduce battery life, he said."

This probably means, IMO, imo, that there will be a small percentage of these cells we are getting that WILL HAVE this defect. Using the NASA test for each cell we should be able to weed these out. I'm getting greedy now!

IF, yes, IF, we can harvest the good cells out of any defective module or good 7s3p, THEN we should get SUPER PRICING for these modules... AND, make good batteries by finding the 1%-10% that are defective, IMO, imo, of cells that are bad.

Here's the bottom line... A123 can not afford to find & replace the defective cells in the modules or batteries, so they are just going to dump all the gold & bits of coal en masse & be done with it. How big is this dump going to be? "Replacing the batteries and systems shipped globally from A123’s plant in Livonia, Michigan, will cost about $55 million and will be funded during the next several quarters, the company estimated. "

I think this is a golden opportunity to mine this gold... do I have "lithium fever"

Btw, at least some or all of these modules were likely destined for a super expensive e-vehicle: $107,000 Fisker Karma model. A123 said 5 customers were affected. I think these cells should be high quality except for the ones affected by the faulty laser alignment, imo, IMO.

[gensem]

subscribed

[puddleglum]

Anyone have any idea what A123 is using for a BMS? Apparently all modules come with one, right, so being able to use it would make the packs even more affordable. OTOH, Isn't it going to be a lot harder to check for weak cells, or do you guys know of a way to do it? I guess it might show up with the BMS, if it's accessible.

[peterperkins]

Xin has quoted me.

Price :42.8$ for 1s1p(FOB)

Price :283.3$ for 7S3P

Price :1600.0$ for 42s3p

Price :1052.3$ for 6S13P

Price :1066.6$ for 28s3p

Shipping to UK of 2 x 28S3P and 2x1S1P as $1050 Total price around £2000 about £11 per cell for UK not inc import duty and vat

They cannot /will not provide any module size information.
Nor will they supply voltage test details at the terminals so we could at least ascertain if the packs might be ok.
It's not that difficult to place a voltmeter on the terminals and take a pic

A gamble Hmm.

I have sent a further e-mail requesting a voltmeter be placed on a few packs and the pics posted.

[cwah]

Do they sell the module to individuals? So no need to buy 100 of them?

[Sutho]

Well.....I bit the bullet and bought 22 x 7s3p units.

I was about to order the individual cells and go through the arduous task of packaging them. This is much easier.

I have a pretty good idea where these come from too. The bulk of them would be the packs that include the potential "soft short" which could result in failure or capacity loss. But I have seen evidence that shows that some have been removed from Fisker packs.

I need 18 packs.....so I purchased 22. I reckon if a pack fails I will swap it out. If a cell group fails I will cut that group out of the pack and replace it with a group out of a spare pack. The busbar will need to be carefully re-welded.

So.....providing the packs don't fail in a dramatic or dangerous fashion, I reckon these are good value. I also think there's a gonna be heaps available......probably close to $55m worth.

[agniusm]

Looks like A123 is shaking off responsibility and pushing them without warranty through sorts of victpower, and i got dead cells of them. I wander just why, why not sell them to individuals without going through no warranty Chinese distributors? Is there something wrong with these modules/cells? There is no real life experience with them long term. Packs are nice, but tabs are welded to busbar with laser and replacing damaged/bad cell would be some job, and loosing whole module because of one or two cells would be costly. I think A123 going tits up and just salvaging what they can.

P.S. They cant give you even voltages on the module? WTF? I mean its not 5 dollar ice cream people are buying! Can in a bag.

Will be waiting for feedback from Sutho.

[Teh Stork]

Well holy shit that is cheap... Could easily build a motorcycle with 3 or 4 of these modules.

[o00scorpion00o]

There is also a guy in Ireland who uses the online name of "Jack Bauer"- and he has built an EV.

Coincidence? Possibly.

He didn't by any chance convert a green bmw ?

[drewjet]

I was a member of the failed SangesF group buy. I just sent a request for a price on 7 of these. WOW 2/3 the price and already made into a pack!

No group buy for me this time!

[spkpn]

sign me up for 3 of the 3p7s modules or alternatively for one of the 28s2p modules.

[Harold in CR]

Price quote I just received is, $426.60 for the 7S3P module shipped to Vero Beach, Fl. This, compared to $449.20 for 13 single cells shipped to the same address. Someone posted they will NOT do voltage readings on the modules before shipping ?? That concerns me, being they have a BMS inside the module ???

Drewjet, if you get a good shipping quote, would you be interested in adding one module for me ?? I could have my Son pick it up from you. Would pay you before you order, naturally.

[peterperkins]

Well.....I bit the bullet and bought 22 x 7s3p units.

Good effort. How much was shipping to where? Did you get a quantity discount?

Did you pay via paypal or transfer, any extra fees?