Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.

Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby SlyCayer » Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:17 pm

oatnet wrote:
I would NEVER purchase from them as they are very unorganized and look like scammers with their prices.

Interesting words from the guy who is still selling a123 prisimatics for $55. I thought $55 was crazy when everyone was buying them for $35, then $25, and now >$18. http://www.jccayer.com/category.php?catbrand=A123&promo=on&


LoL, At least if you find that being a "scammer" and "unorganized" then you must not know the definition of "scammer" and "unorganized"

Google it, maybe you get a better idea of the words.

Yes, we do sell the 20Amp Prismatics for $55.72 CAD, but at least everyone gets the same price, and our price structure for higher quantities is the same for everyone.

Ohh, and where do you see me tell you a price for shipping and then I revise my price for shipping to a higher price? No where, you can add to cart, calculate total, and checkout right there, shipping price never goes up after we do the "quote".
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby deVries » Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:56 pm

Ypedal wrote:Many places use open inbox for email, anyone can reply who has access to the account.

Good point Ypedal. :D That probably explains exactly what is going on... :D :idea:

Guys, let's keep our minds and posts focused on "the prize". Use the PM feature for off-topic issues. :wink:
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby HumboldtRc » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:38 pm

Anyone else that ordered, get their tracking number yet?

I got my tracking # and it has cleared customs in San Francisco. The lady from DHL that I talked to, said I would get the shipment by Wednesday next week.
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby deVries » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:06 pm

HumboldtRc wrote:Anyone else that ordered, get their tracking number yet?

I got my tracking # and it has cleared customs in San Francisco. The lady from DHL that I talked to, said I would get the shipment by Wednesday next week.

Congratulations! :!: :lol:

You look to be getting the honors of virgin territory. :P

We await the virtual experience that you seem destined to provide us with. An A123 module is just the beginning. :twisted:
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby Indubitably » Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:05 am

Well, once the test subje... er... uh... brave entrepreneurs, report back that these cells look good, I'm in for at least one pack. I can't really justify tearing open a functional pre-engineered pack with integrated bms just to get the cells, and there is no way one of these bad boys is going to fit on a 2 wheel bike, but 2 or 3 of them would be perfect for a small enclosed commuter vehicle, and if it turns out that the pack as a whole is not fixable, I have an excuse to cannibalize it.
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby SlyCayer » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:31 am

HumboldtRc wrote:I got my tracking # and it has cleared customs in San Francisco. The lady from DHL that I talked to, said I would get the shipment by Wednesday next week.


Nice, I am eager to see what you can tell us about these modules.

I am wondering how this integrated BMS works tho, does it have a half throttle? or just a throttle signal cutoff? Any one knows yet?
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby deVries » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:39 am

For those interested in the "cell defect" mystery I found this post in another thread by BigMoose. 8)

Interesting observations:

bigmoose wrote:John's cells arrived today! All in superb shape IMHO. John did a great job packaging and shipping them. I can only imagine the time it took. I know how long it took me to just unwrap, measure and photograph, rewrap and store them.

All cells measured either 3.292 or 3.293 Volts on a well calibrated DVM. No tearing or crushing of the foil packets. One thing that I didn't expect was the foils on the long edges were shaped and curled into a "C" along the long edge. They were not flat like the cells I had seen photos of before. The white plastic packaging fit the cells once curled into the "C" shape, so it appears deliberate and helps in shipping I believe. The part of the cell that takes the most "hurt" is the area between the tabs where the shaped shipping liner contacts the foil.

Center stampings were either A0, A1 or A2

First line on all was APP72161227 followed by blank, P1, P2 or P3. This varying mark did not correlate with A0, A1 or A2 markings.

What appears to be serial numbers or date codes varied:
SH(A,B,C,or D)11(A,B,D, E,F )xxxxxxx followed by blank or P1 P2 or P3

All said on the last line
300386-USA

Two things I noticed on two cells. After unwrapping and feeling the cells you hand gets a feeling for what is the norm, sort of like feeling currency. Let me show you one cell that had a texture anomaly. I wonder if this is the "shift" or misalignment that A123 talks about? It is on the cell that I labeled "3" a P1 cell SHA11E0400339 There was a slight ridge down the middle of the cell. About 5/8 inch wide and raised on the front and back by say 0.012 inches. The "thing" under the foil seemed to have sharp edges. Pix below are the cell, my finger points to the ridge on the front and the back.
Cell3.jpg
Cell3.jpg (49.03 KiB) Viewed 716 times

Cell3FrontFold.jpg
Cell3FrontFold.jpg (49.01 KiB) Viewed 716 times

Here I marked where it feels like there is an extra "tape" inside the foil package. It is both front and rear, and just about right down the middle.
Cell3FrontFold2.jpg
Cell3FrontFold2.jpg (54.93 KiB) Viewed 716 times

Cell3BackFold.jpg
Cell3BackFold.jpg (43.85 KiB) Viewed 716 times


EDIT: I have been thinking about this ridge. If I were to package this cell I would use my 0.010 in thick fishpaper and make it two layers thick. I would remove the second layer in the center, say a 1 inch wide piece to take the pressure off of that ridge. I could very easily see how if this cell was stacked with the others and compressed, all the pressure would be on that ridge. If I basically make a spacer and put the pressure on the sides of the cell and not on the ridge, I might be OK.

Then towards the bottom of the stack my cell "17" that caught my eye because it was the only one with no "P" number after the APP72161227 line. Then I looked closer and all the writing looked squished together and was blacker than all the other cells. The 17 other cells were very consistent in marking. Number 17 had the lines closer together and the line height was less for the printing that is on th body of the cell. I would say shrunk about 15% or so. However the line of printing that goes across the tabs looks identical on all cells.
Cell17Label.jpg
Cell17Label.jpg (54.41 KiB) Viewed 716 times

Cell 18 for comparison. This was the norm.
Cell18Label.jpg
Cell18Label.jpg (52.85 KiB) Viewed 716 times

I don't know really what to make of my observations. I would say 16 of the cells appear identical. One had the fold in the center, but it's markings were like the others. One cell looked and felt fine, but the markings were shrunk 15% and there was no P number on the first line.


Thanks BigMoose for your excellent analysis from above! :D
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby The Mighty Volt » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:59 am

Some very good advice in here, but I have one question: how do I know what the market price is to begin with?

Mavizen says the market price is X. Some unknown Chinese person on Alibaba says it is Y. Then somebody here says it is Z.

Thanks.
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby deVries » Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:12 am

The Mighty Volt wrote:Some very good advice in here, but I have one question: how do I know what the market price is to begin with?

Mavizen says the market price is X. Some unknown Chinese person on Alibaba says it is Y. Then somebody here says it is Z.

Thanks.

So far, it seems Doctorbass' original pricing for the modules holds-up. :D (But, just simply ask what the price is, and you might find yourself in a negotiation with varying prices usually at higher expense. :lol:)

The only catch is to firm-up your shipping costs, because that does seem to fluctuate significantly *unless* buying just 1-3 modules of 7s3p. Larger sized modules or quantities seem to fluctuate upwards in shipping costs at the point of shipping, and no one knows exactly "why" this is happening more than once. :?: :? This might all be able to be decoded once someone that has ordered can check the actual invoice cost of shipping with the carrier that was used such as DHL. :idea: :idea: :idea:
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby davec » Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:59 am

HumboldtRc - looking forward to your review
curious to know if it's easy to rip the cells out of these things. and about the cell voltages..even 1c test would be awesome if you have the equipment for it..
Last edited by davec on Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby bigmoose » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:21 am

Dave please present your proof that the loose cells are "krap"... Until folks get these modules and disassemble, we don't even know the usable tab length after you cut them free from the bussbars. Clearly 60AHr is too large for a bike or Trike...

Please present your test data or links to sources that did test them... We, as a community, are in an attempt to discern where the defective cells are, and at what percentage.
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby peterperkins » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:49 am

I'm curious about the bus bars. :?

They are laser welded onto the tops of the tabs as far as we know.
But what are they made of?
Are they two different metals on each side to fuse with the copper or aluminium tabs?
Joined somehow along that dotted line between 3 pos and 3 neg tabs? Or is that some sort of fusible link?

Anyhow if we assume the bus bars are one type of metal then using a dremel to seperate cells cutting exactly in the middle of the spaces between cells but leaving the laser welded part on the tab it would seem a trival job then to overlap the part and flow solder onto the bus bar metal rather than the tab itself.

If that makes sense.
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby Harold in CR » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:16 pm

Makes sense to me. That is exactly how I figured to cut cells loose and reattach to leads.

Just waiting for someone to get one and open er up. :lol:
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby miro13car » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:42 pm

dave,
bigmoose's thread is reposted here by Devries,
bigmoose did not post here his thread with pictures above.
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby davec » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:28 pm

regardless- who posted what- he was only making a reference - i'm not going to argue over loose cells on here- we should keep this a module thread for folks curious about the 7s3p packs- cheers
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby deVries » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:42 pm

davec wrote:i'm not going to argue over loose cells on here- we should keep this a module thread for folks curious about the 7s3p packs- cheers

I agree we should not *argue* over the loose cells, BUT the loose cells make modules. The *source* of the defect is some type of misalignment involving the "torch" (laser) AND the cell. It is perfectly reasonable to speculate on this thread with the kind of quality post, i.e. excellent observations & documentation, that BigMoose made (that I re-posted here from another thread).

BigMoose found two different cell anomalies that may be directly or indirectly related to the defect. It is very helpful to have that informative knowledge posted on this thread for reference purposes & it is definitely "On Topic". 8)
peterperkins wrote:Anyhow if we assume the bus bars are one type of metal then using a dremel to seperate cells cutting exactly in the middle of the spaces between cells but leaving the laser welded part on the tab it would seem a trival job then to overlap the part and flow solder onto the bus bar metal rather than the tab itself.

If that makes sense.

Yes, it makes sense to me too. I've posted this same idea 2-3 times in this thread too, search on dremel if interested, so I'm hoping this is correct. Here's to hoping! :!: :mrgreen: Someone will explore this possibility once the modules are in our devious (KFC black & scarred) hands. :twisted: :shock: :lol:
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby bigmoose » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:52 pm

You gents will know soon enough. ... but I have been speculating from the photographs. I opine that the "buss bars" may be two different materials ultrasonically welded where we see the crimple zone about halfway down, or between 3 cell stacks.

Next it looks like the clearance through the black plastic "cap" is small. So one may not be able to extricate a cell by dremelling off only one side of the "bus bar". That slit in the plastic cap or header may only allow the cell tab through. If that is the case, then the tabs might be too short to reuse in this great and nifty packaging, and an alternate cap may need to be fabricated to do the interconnects for 1PxS.

The A123 packaging design looks really nifty. I sure hope it can be reconfigured.
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby liveforphysics » Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:01 pm

Just having a 60Ah pack is not too bad of a thing either. :-)

A pair of these modules in series to make a 60Ah 14s pack would be a pretty nice ebike setup. It's going to hold about 45v for you until the cows come home, and that's enough voltage to make a mean bike if you just use a higher kV motor and don't mind needing a little larger wires.
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby Kirk » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:12 pm

bigmoose wrote: Clearly 60AHr is too large for a bike or Trike...



I've never had the chance to do anything with A123 cells but my tike does just fine with 64 Ah of Zippy Lipo at a bit over 50 lbs. Why would 60 Ah of A123 be too large?
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby deVries » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:22 pm

liveforphysics wrote:Just having a 60Ah pack is not too bad of a thing either. :-)

A pair of these modules in series to make a 60Ah 14s pack would be a pretty nice ebike setup. It's going to hold about 45v for you until the cows come home, and that's enough voltage to make a mean bike if you just use a higher kV motor and don't mind needing a little larger wires.

+1

Hey, Luke, has had (or maybe still does) have a crap-load of LiPo Ahrs on his commuter bike. What was it Luke? :?:

I think it was somewhere between 40-60Ah at some point along the way of Luke's build. Maybe Luke can tell us what his higher capacity setup was? :?:

A 48v 42 cell pack in 14s3p 60Ah is going to weigh in at about 44-lbs just for the cells, so this 60Ah setup is obviously *not* for some high performance maneuvering bicycle or trail bike unless we bump-up to trials, motorcycle, or dirt-moped format. But a commuter bicycle with long-range AND less need to charge very often is definitely doable. Luke has mentioned the benefits of having a high-capacity setup to extend battery life *and* not have to balance often (if at all), because you don't have to drop the pack down to lower levels before charging again with that extra high-capacity on tap. :idea: :twisted: :mrgreen:

EDIT: Luke's Commuter Bike has or had: 25S (100v+) 25Ah of Nano's ... Sooo, covert that to 50v and the Ah goes to 50Ah. Btw, Luke's Commuter Bike is a Race Bike too! :twisted: :lol:
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby texaspyro » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:49 pm

The Mighty Volt wrote:Some very good advice in here, but I have one question: how do I know what the market price is to begin with?

Mavizen says the market price is X. Some unknown Chinese person on Alibaba says it is Y. Then somebody here says it is Z.

Thanks.


It's "Q". :roll:
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby texaspyro » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:57 pm

The last time somebody sent me something significant (around $10K) via DHL, they wanted certified copies of my birth certificate, social security card, and and the last two years of my income tax returns before they would deliver it because of alleged Homoland Insecurity rules. I told them that they cold go fornicate an aids infested hedge hog, and to return the package to the sender in London. He then re-sent it to me Royal Mail. It arrived two days later, I didn't even have to sign for it. No more DHL for me...
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby SlyCayer » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:16 pm

texaspyro wrote:The last time somebody sent me something significant (around $10K) via DHL, they wanted certified copies of my birth certificate, social security card, and and the last two years of my income tax returns before they would deliver it because of alleged Homoland Insecurity rules. I told them that they cold go fornicate an aids infested hedge hog, and to return the package to the sender in London. He then re-sent it to me Royal Mail. It arrived two days later, I didn't even have to sign for it. No more DHL for me...


Same happened to me, not that much value, but I was shipping to one of our customers in NZ and the wanted to use his DHL account, so we did, and they asked the guy basically every thing that had to do with his business, so he said no, did the same has for you, sent it by UPS and voila, it got delivered without a problem...

DHL has quit on Domestic shipping within the U.S. because they can't provide customer service, I have learned why.
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby cwah » Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:42 am

Anyone knows the total weight of an 7s3p module? I know the cell are 0.480g. So a 21 cell module weight at least 10 kg.

But added as a module is it much heavier?
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Re: Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Pri

Postby deVries » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:05 am

cwah wrote:Anyone knows the total weight of an 7s3p module? I know the cell are 0.480g. So a 21 cell module weight at least 10 kg.

But added as a module is it much heavier?

Check back next week about Wednesday on this thread. I think we will know around that time frame next week.
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