Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!

[JRP3]

For what reason? We know how they are assembled and what's inside.

[deVries]

• 12 units were in the correct voltage range (around 23V) with minimal damage
• 6 units have 1 group of dead cells
• 1 unit has the negative terminal burnt off (shorted)
• 1 unit has been partially stripped (missing BMS internal wiring, cover, etc.)
• 2 units are severely damage and would not be safe to use

45% percent Failure Rate!

$283 x 55% good modules = $155 per module new price!

Sutho was promised repeatedly that his modules would be new!

It's definitely a deal breaker for me IF they force you to return defective modules. They need to accept pics or Skype video in lieu of any defective returns. Otherwise, the price needs to be as I suggest above.

[Ypedal]

For what reason? We know how they are assembled and what's inside.

Are the cells glued or adhered to eachother ? or just held together with the straps under compression ?

how difficult is it to seperate the 3P groups... i would have zero need for a 60ah pack.. from the looks of it it's best to order up single cells vs these modules and all the work involved to split them.. if you want 20ah ..

[deVries]

For what reason? We know how they are assembled and what's inside.

Are the cells glued or adhered to eachother ? or just held together with the straps under compression ?

how difficult is it to seperate the 3P groups... i would have zero need for a 60ah pack.. from the looks of it it's best to order up single cells vs these modules and all the work involved to split them.. if you want 20ah ..

Unless you want the 60Ah module in 3p, then you are correct that building your own battery from the cells is a better way to go by far!

If they cut the price to $155 per 7s3p module -OR- they don't force you to return damaged modules, then hacking a module might be worthwhile IF one is inclined to hack away!

[Sutho]

I would suggest asking to use photos or Skype & video to show the defective parts. It seems an incredible waste of effort to return what is worthless. Obviously, paying for the return shipping is just too expensive, since these modules should have been in much better condition when shipped. I can understand one or two failures, but this really is ridiculous, imo.

This is very disappointing from my POV.

How many modules were shipped per crate?

I am pretty confident that most of the damage occurred prior to them being packaged Some have evidence of being dropped on one edge which pushes the cell divider plates, and the pretty much the whole module, out of alignment.

They were packaged 2 modules per crate. Some crates were well in tact and hard to open. Others fell apart.

I have started adapting new BMS nodes into the good modules and hope to have a charged, monitored pack (or half-a-pack) in a few days.....

[deVries]

They were packaged 2 modules per crate. Some crates were well in tact and hard to open. Others fell apart.

If anyone orders these modules: I suggest getting One Module Per Crate!

It seems you have just slightly better than a one in two chance, that's 55%, of getting a module that does not need a repair. Smaller orders have done better than Sutho's 22 module order, so your odds may go up with a smaller order, hopefully! One would think a large order of 22 modules would be much better in quality than Sutho's 45% defective rate.

Bummer!

[deVries]

so.. someone is eventually going to have to rip one of these apart.... come on now.. or someone in canada pls sell me a dead unit cheap and i'll do the honors.

Yes! Ypedal would be perfect to rip into one of these modules. He has a lot of experience with repairing batteries, and he would do a great job of documenting it too.

[zEEz]

... sorry for the overall quality in the sutho shipping ...
what I suspect is that those cells modules are really not reject
of almost new or new automotive packs, but probably they are
more likely faulty packs from power utility backup applications...
That would make it very wise to really test the Ah of some old looking
pack in order to understand roughly how long they were used ...
Just to avoid to run for packs and then discover they are more than
4.000 cycles and 3 yrs. old ... and so you bought essentially crap ...

all the best and have fun!

[oatnet]

For what reason? We know how they are assembled and what's inside.

Are the cells glued or adhered to eachother ? or just held together with the straps under compression ?

how difficult is it to seperate the 3P groups... i would have zero need for a 60ah pack.. from the looks of it it's best to order up single cells vs these modules and all the work involved to split them.. if you want 20ah ..

I don't think they are glued, because unsupported packs easily twist out of alignment, and I was able to easily shift my 28s pack back into alignment with a few drops from 6". It would be easy to break these into individual cells by cutting the buss bar between the cells with a dremel (see picture below), and removing the compression rings around the pack. Of course, once those compression rings are off, the cells will be flapping around, so the pack better be well supported.

The HARD part is doing something with the cells once you harvest them. Take a look at the picture below - all you would have to work with is an extremely short tab with an upside-down "U" of Buss Bar over it. Yes, people have made do with less tab, but every one I have seen is an ugly hack that cannot support the cell's full potential discharge.

If I were building an eBike pack, I would purchase more of the NEW beautiful single cells I got from VictPower for $24.50/cell, instead of these USED modules for $19.50/cell. The $5 savings is not worth the time or materials it would take to overcome the short tabs, let alone the reduced cycle life. The only reason I see for buying these modules, is FOR the modules themselves.

As for dead cells - I would bypass them by soldering a wire into the two channels between the 3p tabs, that goes across the +/- tabs for that supercell, effectively bypassing it.

-JD

[flathill]

The power backup apps all use cyclindrical cells from what I've seen. These are likely recall cells from all their prismatic customers including fisker and smith van. Also just older bad packs sent to the recyclers. Do all the newer cells say made in USA? That will tell you the answer if they are part of the recall. I'm guessing victpower has connections to the usa official recycler

I imagine they were handled as junk and were damaged before shipment in many cases. Victpower is relying on the fact it is so expensive to ship. Pretty shady but maybe you can salvage some cells. Now we know where the cut tab cells were coming from last year...no need for them to cut cells out of packs now given new recall cells with full tabs sell for more and they found a market for the modules

[deVries]

yet no one bothered to test their pack and post results?
isn;t anyone a bit curious if their 7s3p can put out at least 54aH ?

SlyCayer & Sutho are doing testing now & will post results within several days or so. Probably by next week.

[Sutho]

The power backup apps all use cyclindrical cells from what I've seen. These are likely recall cells from all their prismatic customers including fisker and smith van. Also just older bad packs sent to the recyclers. Do all the newer cells say made in USA? That will tell you the answer if they are part of the recall. I'm guessing victpower has connections to the usa official recycler

I imagine they were handled as junk and were damaged before shipment in many cases. Victpower is relying on the fact it is so expensive to ship. Pretty shady but maybe you can salvage some cells. Now we know where the cut tab cells were coming from last year...no need for them to cut cells out of packs now given new recall cells with full tabs sell for more and they found a market for the modules

At least some of the ones I received are from Fisker as they were labeled as such. I reckon there is a mix of sources as one has white heat transfer paste, one has pink plasticine type gunk, and the others have none. Most have grey aluminium cell surrounds and some have black. Some have a bar linking the terminals at each end and others don't.

It is by pure luck, not by careful selection, that I have 12 modules that are in reasonably good condition. It is obvious that Victpower are aware that many/most of the modules are faulty, damaged goods and, despite numerous promises and assurances that the modules would be good or would be replaced, I have now been forced to submit a dispute with PayPal to recover at least half of my money.

Xin Wang and the owners of Victpower have no morals and do not stand by their claims, assurances and promises. They initially agreed to send some replacement modules if I returned the faulty, incomplete and severely damaged ones first (at my cost), paid the freight for them to send replacements (at my cost).....but they could not confirm that the replacements would be any better. They then started telling stories about how they now don't have enough to send replacements and that I would have to make do with the units I have. With threats of recovering my money, they changed back to having modules again.....and on it went.

They have not kept up any part of their side of the agreement. I have emails clearly stating that modules are New, Undamaged and Voltage Tested. I can live with the "not-new" part.....but not the damaged part and the dead cell part. Would be happy to start with working modules and repair ones that may fail in the future......not repair modules before I even begin.

VICTPOWER - BUYER BEWARE!

I am going to complete my project with 12 modules in lieu of 18 while I move to plan B. Anyone have any knowledge or experience with XinChi modules? http://www.xcgdbattery.com/cp_look1.php?typeid=1&id1=67

I have a sample module containing their high power (20C continuous discharge) 8.5Ah LiMn204 cells to test.

Oh.....and I will make a sacrifice and disassemble an A123 module if no-one else is keen....?

[deVries]

Oh.....and I will make a sacrifice and disassemble an A123 module if no-one else is keen....?

I don't know of anyone else that can do this. I am sure many would be interested if you can document it in detail. Otherwise, without detailed documentation, meaning lots of pics and/or video close-ups, then I don't think it's very worthwhile. I have a lot of interest in the A123 design just to see the innards & see if dremeling between the bus bar could separate the cells, but maybe there is not a lot to be gained from doing that?

It is obvious that Victpower are aware that many/most of the modules are faulty, damaged goods and, despite numerous promises and assurances that the modules would be good or would be replaced, I have now been forced to submit a dispute with PayPal to recover at least half of my money.

Does Paypal protect you for a refund on International orders? I did *not* think that was/is possible.

So, you are able to file a claim & get a refund for the defective modules? Yes? Does Paypal refund the shipping too?

Based on the way you have been mistreated I would not recommend anyone buy these modules. The only possible exception would be is IF they will now sell the 7s3p for $155 per module to cover the cost of defective modules & repairs. IMO. imo.

[competitions]

I have now been forced to submit a dispute with PayPal to recover at least half of my money.

I have emails clearly stating that modules are New, Undamaged and Voltage Tested

Technically you could claim the whole lot back on PayPal.

Oh.....and I will make a sacrifice and disassemble an A123 module if no-one else is keen....?

If you end up with something working with at least 10AH 24V(ish) then keep me in mind!

[Sutho]

Yes...can claim on international PayPal payments.

Yes....I would document the disassembly. I would attempt to repair a module with dead cells.

[deVries]

Yes...can claim on international PayPal payments.

Yes....I would document the disassembly. I would attempt to repair a module with dead cells.

Ok, Sutho, no one is going to stop you. You volunteered.

Thanks for attempting to do the module repair too. At least you have a few to repair. Sorry.

So, just to be clear in my understanding:

Will PayPal also refund your shipping cost for the defective modules too?

[Sutho]

Ok, Sutho, no one is going to stop you. You volunteered.

Thanks for attempting to do the module repair too. At least you have a few to repair. Sorry.

So, just to be clear in my understanding:

Will PayPal also refund your shipping cost for the defective modules too?

I will await the outcome of this PayPal dispute with the seller before I begin in case I need to return the faulty modules.

Not sure about shipping costs. It is actually up to the seller to make good first. If they don't, I need to escalate it to an actual claim and PayPal makes the final decision.

It's pretty clear-cut as far I can see. I did not receive what I was told I was buying. I have asked them numerous times to simply replace the 10 really bad modules with good ones prior to me returning the bad ones. (This is so I can ensure that the replacements are actually better than the bad ones I have and don't have to repeat the process).

On top of paying the freight.....I even offered to pay a deposit on the bad ones I have which they could refund when I return them. Still wouldn't come to the party. After about 30+ emails going nowhere, I registered the complaint with PayPal.

[pgt400]

I have now been forced to submit a dispute with PayPal to recover at least half of my money.

I have emails clearly stating that modules are New, Undamaged and Voltage Tested

Technically you could claim the whole lot back on PayPal.

Oh.....and I will make a sacrifice and disassemble an A123 module if no-one else is keen....?

If you end up with something working with at least 10AH 24V(ish) then keep me in mind!

Thats the part most disapointing to me...they stated them as new when they CLEARLY are not. They said the single cells were new, and they are. I was going to order a 7S3P pack...now I definately won't. If they said as is then fine...but instead they chose to lie.

[deVries]

Thats the part most disapointing to me...they stated them as new when they CLEARLY are not. They said the single cells were new, and they are. I was going to order a 7S3P pack...now I definately won't. If they said as is then fine...but instead they chose to lie.

+1

Cut the price to $155 per 7s3p module, and sell it honestly as salvage needing some repair about 45% of the time.

[oatnet]

At least some of the ones I received are from Fisker as they were labeled as such. I reckon there is a mix of sources as one has white heat transfer paste, one has pink plasticine type gunk, and the others have none. Most have grey aluminium cell surrounds and some have black. Some have a bar linking the terminals at each end and others don't.

Yeah, mine just had the bar linking the terminals on the positive end. Any screws broken off in your terminals? Is there any correlation between the cells marked Fiskar, and the thermal paste or gray/black case?

It is by pure luck, not by careful selection, that I have 12 modules that are in reasonably good condition. It is obvious that Victpower are aware that many/most of the modules are faulty, damaged goods and, despite numerous promises and assurances that the modules would be good or would be replaced, I have now been forced to submit a dispute with PayPal to recover at least half of my money.

I feel bad that this worked out poorly for you, yours is the potential outcome I was warning about in my earlier posts. I've been in your position many times, which is why I tried to share my approach earlier. Maybe it was luck, or maybe my approach, but all of my cells are good and holding voltage; capacity, well we'll see about that soon.

Promises don't mean squat - in fact I expect a large amount of BS - and in the end no matter what they say to close the deal, you will get what they have in their warehouse. Sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose. I started getting better quality product when learned to stopped extorting promises that nobody would be around to support or service, and I would never buy my full order all at once, especially on a new, unseen product. Given the way events proceeded with the 42s packs etc, I'd bet donuts to dollars that VictPower is the middleman in the transaction, and has little control over the supply. I have not heard of anyone recovering money from an international PayPal claim, if it works for you then there is hope for all of us in future transactions.

Xin Wang and the owners of Victpower have no morals and do not stand by their claims, assurances and promises.

A business is completely self-interested, and never-ever-ever has a moral component - which is why it drives me nuts that the US Supreme court decided business need to have "freedom of speech", expressed ny unfettered political contributions. The desire to attract repeat customers can give the appearance of morality, but Chinese vendors disappear and start new companies, so repeat business is not really a concern for them. Investing for a high return, and buying for a steep discount, have commensurate risks.

If you end up with dead modules you want to dump, I can use them for the module parts.

-JD

[Harold in CR]

I'd bet donuts to dollars that VictPower is the middleman in the transaction, and has little control over the supply.

I am thinking the same thing. Glad I held off buying these modules.

[SlyCayer]

I'd bet donuts to dollars that VictPower is the middleman in the transaction, and has little control over the supply.

Yep, this is probably true, but losing their name over something they don't have control is crazy.

Thats the part most disapointing to me...they stated them as new when they CLEARLY are not. They said the single cells were new, and they are. I was going to order a 7S3P pack...now I definately won't. If they said as is then fine...but instead they chose to lie.

They lied about a lot of things...

[Indubitably]

Yeah, pretty much the only way to make something like this work is to have enough buying power to subsidize the loss. If you can consistently buy the cells at $15 with 30% bad on average, but you can sell the cells for $30 a pop, you will come out of the deal smelling like roses. If you sink everything you've got into one shipment though, you might as well be playing craps. You might get a shipment with less than one bad cell in a hundred, or you might get a shipment where half of them are DOA. The trick is getting an "honest" estimate out of them, and the best way to do that is to convince them that you will both make more money if they are honest. Once you have convinced them to be "honest", and if they have a solid track record, you can pretty safely expect to get about twice as much bad product as they quoted you. If they don't have a solid track record, expect about 3 times the quantity of bad product.

If you start making demands they are just going to clam up and squeeze whatever they can out of the deal at hand. The closest thing you will get to a guarantee, is leverage. Never put all your eggs in one basket, never go into negotiations without at least 2 alternative sources for the product, and never let on that you are only interested in a finite amount. They will keep you as happy as they can, for as long as they think you will keep the gravy train rolling.

[Sutho]

The main issue is that Xin Wang, the young English speaking salesperson, says what she needs to in order to make a sale. She tries to resolve any problems, but her bosses override her on everything and nothing happens.

[bigmoose]

If anyone wants to part with a BMS card, I would be interested in one to see what A123 was up to. I need to be able to read IC part numbers however. PM me if interested.