Lithium Batteries Shipping Rules Discussions

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
Post Reply
User avatar
Arlo1
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 8492
Joined: Apr 26, 2009 10:36 pm
Location: Nanaimo BC Canada
Contact:

Re: Shipping BANS on Batteries from US DOT!

Post by Arlo1 » Oct 10, 2011 12:20 am

zombiess wrote:The law makers will not be happy until they have full control and everyone is poor and enslaved.
They have a hard battle ahead of them. Because the public is starting to rebel and we will be using less and less gas to make them money!
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

SamTexas
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3004
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 5:34 am
Location: Houston, Texas

UPS and USPS rules on Lithium battery shipping?

Post by SamTexas » Dec 25, 2011 1:33 pm

Where can I find the specific rules about shipping Lithium battery within the USA? Thanks

User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 23938
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: UPS and USPS rules on Lithium battery shipping?

Post by amberwolf » Dec 25, 2011 2:10 pm

There was a thread that had them and links to them, probably in battery tech subforum.

User avatar
neptronix
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 13061
Joined: Jun 15, 2010 5:56 pm
Location: People's republic of Petrolistan ( Utah, USA )
Contact:

Re: UPS and USPS rules on Lithium battery shipping?

Post by neptronix » Dec 25, 2011 3:04 pm

Usps will ship them.
The only rule i know of is that if you ship hazardous materials, there could be financial or criminal penalties.
They will only ship via ground as well.

So don't send puffy lipo packs.
And pad the hell out of those batteries!
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

LI-ghtcycle
1.21 GW
1.21 GW
Posts: 3872
Joined: Aug 29, 2009 11:39 pm
Location: Oregon City Oregon

Re: UPS and USPS rules on Lithium battery shipping?

Post by LI-ghtcycle » Dec 25, 2011 4:49 pm

If you send as a private party, you're in a grey area, if you are sending them as a business there is an EXPENSIVE and though process for which you must be certified and have an ungodly amount of insurance because of the potential liability.

I'm not sure I would trust USPS with something that will potentially catch fire when they run it over with a fork lift, not saying it hasn't happened with all the other shippers too, but I have had far better experiences with UPS.

Then again, MAYBE some of the bad apples in the USPS will be better exposed for their rough handling of packages in general when something catches fire, and then MAYBE they might be able to get rid of some of them!

However, after all the "caught on video" actions of UPS and FED-EX drivers tossing packages around, I have to wonder if I haven't just been lucky. :roll: :lol:
Thank you Justin_Le for your selfless act of kindness! We all are in your debt.
Back on track E-Bronco! Now with Cro Motor Mid-Drive Goodness!
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=44997

Vision R40 w/3000w MXUS as mid-drive, NuVinci N171B rear wheel as transmission, Silent yet powerful, running 72v 11.6 ah (20s 18650 Li-Ion) to climb hills, tow trailer with zero pedaling when needed!

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=75247[/size]

daniele10
10 mW
10 mW
Posts: 28
Joined: Aug 11, 2011 5:25 pm
Location: St Louis, MO
Contact:

Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by daniele10 » Nov 30, 2012 9:01 pm

FedEx has some new regulations about shipping items with Lithium batteries.

I tried to read the requirements but they are hard to understand.

From what I can tell is some types and sizes must be packed and labeled by a trained person and shippers must be registered with FedEx and there will be new mandatory inspections with fees. Training takes 3 days and costs $950

You will be required to by FedEx to purchase labels stating shipment can not travel by passenger aircraft.

There seems to be regulations on which FedEx drop-off locations one can use. There is also a 35 kg limit on boxes with Lithium batteries packed with bikes.

At least one shipment has been returned to the sender as some of the regulations have started now. ( The shipping label didn't "match" the hazard label. ) That was a type 9 UN 3480 battery sent FedEx Ground.

This was a very rare return, in the past we were able to just repack and ship no problem.

Any ideas? plain boxes? Shipping by UPS is a possibility but FedEx shipping through Bikeflieghts.com averaged $96 last year, UPS would charge $249 from Florida to LA.

My electric bikes are packed by trained people at the Florida factory, but I may no longer be able to ship them myself, using FedEx Ground.

User avatar
arkmundi
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3444
Joined: Jul 08, 2012 11:14 am
Location: Worcester, MA USofA

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by arkmundi » Nov 30, 2012 9:39 pm

Its not Fedex, but all shippers. These are international shipping rules and the USA fully complies. Bottom, line, you can't ship li-ion without all the precautions, including the rule about being a certified shipper. Bypass the rules at your own risk. Expect to pay more to get li-ion cells and/or batteries. The shippers are all in various stages of adaptation, because the rules only came out this past April.

Trackman417
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 998
Joined: May 05, 2011 9:25 am
Location: Bergen County, New Jersey

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by Trackman417 » Nov 30, 2012 10:05 pm

Simple solution... Chenge your shipper :P
When I shipped my lithium battery's. I shipped with UPS. As long as it wasn't a car battery, they were ok with sending it. That was in july? However with regulations changing as fast as you say, those rules might be long gone.
K2 Sidewinder
H4065 36 mph
20s2p 10aH lipo battery pack
If it didn't kill you, it just built your character.
You know your bike is powerful when even you, the builder, can't control it.
Customer 00001 at our very own Bigmooses online store http://mtg-technologies.com/zencart/ Great guy, great products.

User avatar
arkmundi
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3444
Joined: Jul 08, 2012 11:14 am
Location: Worcester, MA USofA

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by arkmundi » Nov 30, 2012 10:15 pm

It doesn't matter what shipper, they'll all be following the rules because its in their best interest to do so. Need to ship li-ion, either get the certification or pay for it. The shippers are on the winning side of the equation.

EBJ
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 387
Joined: Jun 09, 2011 11:29 am
Location: Berkeley

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by EBJ » Dec 05, 2012 8:42 pm

http://images.fedex.com/us/packaging/gu ... _fxcom.pdf

"Shipments of lithium ion batteries, lithium ion batteries
packed with equipment and lithium ion batteries contained
in equipment may be packaged in accordance with Section
II IATA (Section II ICAO) packaging requirements when the
package contains 100Wh or less lithium per battery or
20Wh or less lithium per cell."

As per this document, shipment of (most) small RC LiPo batteries falls under "Section 2" and does not require a hazardous materials label.
When I asked at the FedEx location (in person) they told me that although it doesn't have to be declared as H.M. it does require a simple "Lithium" label, (that you can find online and print yourself).
As for larger packs, you are subject to "Section 1" and are required to jump through hoops.

I wonder if that means manufacturers will start splitting their larger packs into a bunch of smaller ones. lol.

User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 23938
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by amberwolf » Dec 06, 2012 8:37 pm

EBJ wrote:"Shipments of lithium ion batteries, lithium ion batteries
packed with equipment and lithium ion batteries contained
in equipment may be packaged in accordance with Section
II IATA (Section II ICAO) packaging requirements when the
package contains 100Wh or less lithium per battery or
20Wh or less lithium per cell."
Well, that "or" in there means that you can have a million wh in the battery as long as each cell in the pack is less than 20Wh, so assuming you calculate using the nominal voltage (say, 3.7V for RC LiPo), and use 5Ah cells, it'd still fall within the limits based on that paragraph.

If it is stated differently in the IATA/ICAO or whatever other document governs such things that this paragraph is presumably a summary of, then that might change thngs, but as it is stated, lots and lots of very large packs would still be perfectly legal to ship.

Oh, also, the actual wording of that paragraph doesnt' actually make sense, since they use the word "lithium" instead of "energy capacity".

Either that, or they are using "wh" when they intended to use a unit of mass instead. ;)

potatorage
100 W
100 W
Posts: 159
Joined: Apr 22, 2011 8:57 pm
Location: Saint Louis, Missouri

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by potatorage » Dec 07, 2012 1:44 am

You can just do what Victpower did: label their A123 cells as "3.7v 900mAh" :roll:

Ebikebert
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 316
Joined: Nov 12, 2012 2:45 pm
Location: Saint Cloud Fl

shipping large li-ion batteries via usps

Post by Ebikebert » Apr 22, 2013 9:58 am

I want to ship a large li-ion battery that exceed the watt hour requirements for usps is the any way they can tell how many watt hours it is anyways how will they even know if it doesnt meet their 300 wh maximum requirement.

dnmun
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 17260
Joined: Jun 09, 2008 1:32 pm
Location: portland, or and loveland, co

Re: shipping large li-ion batteries via usps

Post by dnmun » Apr 22, 2013 10:12 am

they ask you at the counter. i have used the USPS flat rate boxes to ship lifepo4 packs. they are cheapest.

User avatar
arkmundi
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3444
Joined: Jul 08, 2012 11:14 am
Location: Worcester, MA USofA

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by arkmundi » Sep 03, 2013 10:46 am

There was a recent debate about shipping in this thread: AMP20M1HD-A Prismatic Cell group buy feeler failed attempt. There apparently is no consistency among folks calling or among various representatives of the shipping industry. To get some clarity, I decided I'd attempt shipping my dead A123 AMP20 cells to a recycling program and see what happens. For those following the question, you'll know my previous experience was dismal, but one can always hope. wb9k had said the rules are evolving and may have recently been relaxed.

So, today I packed up my 5 dead cells and took them to the USPS post office. I declared them as "LiFePO4 battery cells". I asked about hazmat, certification - all that. They said just ship it GROUND - that's it. So I did and off the package went. :mrgreen:

major
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 716
Joined: Mar 10, 2013 10:12 am
Location: NW Ohio, USA

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by major » Sep 03, 2013 11:14 am

arkmundi wrote: So, today I packed up my 5 dead cells and took them to the USPS post office. I declared them as "LiFePO4 battery cells". I asked about hazmat, certification - all that. They said just ship it GROUND - that's it. So I did and off the package went. :mrgreen:
So does this mean I can ship an EnerDel module USPS ground? Or just LiFePO4? Do they even know the difference? Any size, weight, energy limits? Thanks for sharing.

User avatar
gogo
100 MW
100 MW
Posts: 2598
Joined: Mar 17, 2008 2:20 pm
Location: Iowa USA

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by gogo » Sep 03, 2013 11:26 am

arkmundi wrote:It doesn't matter what shipper, they'll all be following the rules because its in their best interest to do so. Need to ship li-ion, either get the certification or pay for it. The shippers are on the winning side of the equation.
Can you provide a link to the .gov information you reference concerning 'certification'? Its my best understanding that you, the shipper, must certify that your package complies, not that you must be 'certified' somehow. UPS and Fedex have made up their own requirements beyond what the government requires.
"A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking." -Steven Wright

davec
1 kW
1 kW
Posts: 415
Joined: May 22, 2011 8:08 am

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by davec » Sep 03, 2013 11:29 am

i think those threads made to big of a deal about shipping these things
i've shipped lithium across the border just fine using usps - i just declared it scrap
i've also recived over 60lbs of lithium via usps from US- no issues
and that's the postal office- now with ups/or fedex if it's declared right i dont see issues at all unless something goes totallly wrong
even the lithium from china gets to me via local post office- again no issues

ejonesss
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 798
Joined: Aug 31, 2008 4:21 pm

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by ejonesss » Sep 03, 2013 11:34 am

1. it is bikeflights.com not bikeflieghts.com

2. you are referencing air shipping and international.


we are looking for usa ground say from ohio to pa
stuff for Even Newer 4 to 24-cell Battery Management System (BMS)
32 lifepo4 cells 16s2p 40138 green cells √
16s2p 40138 based pack built assembled (building electrical equiv to $2000 eonyx system.*

ejonesss
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 798
Joined: Aug 31, 2008 4:21 pm

a123 pouch cells 1 already bought

Post by ejonesss » Sep 07, 2013 11:33 pm

note to mods if this is not in the right group you are welcome to move it to the right group


i went to buya123batteries.com

http://www.buya123batteries.com/AMP20M1 ... m1hd-a.htm

and saw 1 had been bought if that is someone on the board that bought it maybe they can study the packaging (shipping carton) and the packing slips (paper work) and put together a tutorial on how to ship large lithium batteries (build a template by copying the slips and blanking out the personal info and posting them online so we can have a template of the shipper's forms).
stuff for Even Newer 4 to 24-cell Battery Management System (BMS)
32 lifepo4 cells 16s2p 40138 green cells √
16s2p 40138 based pack built assembled (building electrical equiv to $2000 eonyx system.*

User avatar
arkmundi
1 GW
1 GW
Posts: 3444
Joined: Jul 08, 2012 11:14 am
Location: Worcester, MA USofA

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by arkmundi » Sep 09, 2013 5:38 pm

arkmundi wrote:So, today I packed up my 5 dead cells and took them to the USPS post office. I declared them as "LiFePO4 battery cells". I asked about hazmat, certification - all that. They said just ship it GROUND - that's it. So I did and off the package went.
... and today were received at their destination just fine.

One can only speculate as to what may be going on. Perhaps Fedex and UPS are profiting from purposeful confusion regarding the whole certified shipper requirements, where the USPS is simply required to follow federal guidelines exactly.

User avatar
r3volved
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1605
Joined: Jul 24, 2013 4:01 pm
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by r3volved » Sep 09, 2013 6:07 pm

Ground is fine. Sea is fine. Air is not fine anymore :(

Sancho's Horse
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 503
Joined: Aug 09, 2011 2:27 pm
Location: Muncie, Indiana (USA) or Beijing or Tianjin (China)

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by Sancho's Horse » Sep 09, 2013 6:26 pm

The confusion over shipping is likely due to the IATA and their massively exhorbitant fees for access to literature regarding air transport of hazardous materials. It is something like $389.00 for that section alone. You can piece the important parts together by looking at the various carrier policies, but people want the actual language. Been looking at this for awhile, and ground and sea still have some regulations regarding packaging, and customs, but they are often variably enforced, if at all. People ship this stuff by sea, train and truck all the time.

ejonesss
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 798
Joined: Aug 31, 2008 4:21 pm

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by ejonesss » Sep 11, 2013 2:40 am

what about dead batteries?

are they any better to ship GROUND

if so here is a suggestion from my last post here

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... &start=175

basically use the dead battery loophole.
stuff for Even Newer 4 to 24-cell Battery Management System (BMS)
32 lifepo4 cells 16s2p 40138 green cells √
16s2p 40138 based pack built assembled (building electrical equiv to $2000 eonyx system.*

ejonesss
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 798
Joined: Aug 31, 2008 4:21 pm

Re: Shipping items with Lithium batteries

Post by ejonesss » Sep 12, 2013 6:02 am

did you call the recycling company and ask if they got the cells ok?

if not then you may want to ask them or at lease check your tracking number to see if it got delivered.

arkmundi wrote:There was a recent debate about shipping in this thread: AMP20M1HD-A Prismatic Cell group buy feeler failed attempt. There apparently is no consistency among folks calling or among various representatives of the shipping industry. To get some clarity, I decided I'd attempt shipping my dead A123 AMP20 cells to a recycling program and see what happens. For those following the question, you'll know my previous experience was dismal, but one can always hope. wb9k had said the rules are evolving and may have recently been relaxed.

So, today I packed up my 5 dead cells and took them to the USPS post office. I declared them as "LiFePO4 battery cells". I asked about hazmat, certification - all that. They said just ship it GROUND - that's it. So I did and off the package went. :mrgreen:
stuff for Even Newer 4 to 24-cell Battery Management System (BMS)
32 lifepo4 cells 16s2p 40138 green cells √
16s2p 40138 based pack built assembled (building electrical equiv to $2000 eonyx system.*

Post Reply