Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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Doctorbass
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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Doctorbass » Aug 19, 2015 10:55 pm

Got some POWERFULL 100C lipo made for Drag Racing this week Thanks to John Metric from Lonestars Racing! These also have serious 8 gauge wires! Someone on the NEDRA said he tested these at 200C and it worked, he improoved his 1/4 time from 14 to 10 sec!!

I tested one on my professional RI meter and i got 7.77miliohm... look like i'm lucky !! ( 777) lol

That's 1.3 miliohm per cell witch is about the same as the Nanotech. These are 4.5Ah cells. and John used these for their full 100C for 9 second run with the Electric Drag racing Miata!

Here are some pics from the facebook of John.


PLEASE GO GERE FOR NEW LINK OF THE LIPO PICTURES:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 6#p1149796



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If i drive those the same way John is using for his Electric Miata, i will get 29.7kW of power out of these 4 little packs!!

I will use these to power my 2 MAX-E Adaptto at about 160A. This will draw 320A from these 1P cells! that's about 71C rate for about 10-15 sec

at 1.3 miliohm per cell that's 28.6 miliohms total for 22s pack.

At 320A that's 0.0286*320 =9.15V sag and 2928W in heat in these cells for 10 seconds = 29kJ of energy




Here are mine arrived this week! :mrgreen:

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Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
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Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
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Doctorbass
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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Doctorbass » Feb 07, 2016 1:33 pm

Just an update/correction: these 4.5Ah cells have 1.3 miliohm at ambient

I'll have 22s 2p witch mean the pack will have 22x 1.3 miliohm /2 = 14.3 miliohms total... not bad :wink: John said if i warm these a bit i can lower the RI by about half for about 7 miliohms.


On the two Adaptto used at about 180A each the pack should not drop lower than 2.52V drop the most optimistic

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

Hillhater
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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Hillhater » Feb 07, 2016 4:10 pm

They are good cells for sure Doc, with a proven performance history, so I am sure they will do the job for you when you are ready.
Things keep progressing with batteries so next year there may be other options, lighter, less sag. Etc
I guess someone needs to "test" the new Graphene packs from HK to see if there is anything to gain there for the ultimate drag cell.
Just to remind those who may have forgotten..
....the "old" HK Nanotech 65C packs were used a few years ago in a serious drag car (Warp Factor) that set the EV "Door Slammer" record at 10.08 sec back in 2011 (?). It could have been much faster with a better driver/car.
That HK pack was replaced by a "custom cell" pack from a large battery sponsor, but never was able to run faster than the Nanotech's.
That was a 96S 10P pack that was put together by a guy who knew nothing about batteries and little about much else ! :shock:
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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Hillhater » Feb 07, 2016 6:17 pm

Doctorbass wrote:Got some POWERFULL 100C lipo made for Drag Racing this week Thanks to John Metric from Lonestars Racing!
I tested one on my professional RI meter and i got 7.77miliohm... look like i'm lucky !! ( 777) lol

That's 1.3 miliohm per cell

Doc
Doc...I trust your experience, but is that DC IR , or does your meter measure AC IR , as most seem to ?
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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Doctorbass » Feb 11, 2016 12:05 pm

Hillhater wrote:
Doctorbass wrote:Got some POWERFULL 100C lipo made for Drag Racing this week Thanks to John Metric from Lonestars Racing!
I tested one on my professional RI meter and i got 7.77miliohm... look like i'm lucky !! ( 777) lol

That's 1.3 miliohm per cell

Doc
Doc...I trust your experience, but is that DC IR , or does your meter measure AC IR , as most seem to ?
Yes it's AC IR measurement so generally the Dc value is higher a bit... for exemple the popular M1 26650 A123 cells mesure 7 miliohm AC and 10miliohm DC.
My understanding is that the controller make the battery see DC and AC load as there is ripple.

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

Hillhater
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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Hillhater » Feb 11, 2016 4:57 pm

I wonder why those IR meters nearly always measure AC IR, when it's the DC IR that is most relavent ?
The testing and results I have seen suggest it's DR IR that dictates the discharge ability of a cell/pack, and that it also is much more variable depending on temp, SOC, age, etc ,...than the AC figure.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 14&t=73701

A discharge test at various loads, on those drag cells would give some DC data for comparison .(did J M have any such data ?)
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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Merlin » Feb 25, 2016 10:07 am

i would like to see more videos from your tries :P

want to win "the race"? just get a skinny 40kg "human" and YOUR BIKE does what you want.

iam pretty sure in this "low Power" drag race weight is everything behind Power and good times.


Ive seen Monkeys riding bicycles...looks like you can safe about 50Kg :lol: :mrgreen:
just kidding. Looking for some Speed Videos from you.

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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Vanarian » Feb 25, 2016 2:39 pm

Well if you can get special designed LiPo batteries for YOUR dragster, nothing can beat that! But if you need to ressort to RC-type Lipos, I strongly suggest that you take a look at SMC-racing :D These guys are from few manufacturers who actually respect the rating of their batteries, that's what I had in mind for my e-monster bike project a year ago before dropping it.

Another solution depending on your space is LiFepo4 a123 26650 (70A/cell) ; a solution though that I would recommend if you want crazy power with Li-Ion instead is LG HB4/HB6 :twisted: Good point : 30A continuous (these are the only ones able to do it while being 18650 Li-Ion) and 60A pulsed per cell. Bad point : each cell only packs 1500mAh so you need MANY parallels to actually get useful capacity. But then you have a crazy long-life battery! And it is still lighter than LiPo usually, and WAY laighter than Lifepo4. I don't know why I'm the only one interested in these cells here.

EDIT : Wait did I came late to the party?
I needed to turn Air Gear stuff into reality so I am making this!
-+Electric inline skates - no remote control - weight / angle sensor - hub motors - one frame for all wheels sizes between 80/125mm - from 3.2 to 12 KW :mrgreen:

Rollo Ergo Sum!

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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Hillhater » Feb 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Vanarian wrote: ..... ; a solution though that I would recommend if you want crazy power with Li-Ion instead is LG HB4/HB6 :twisted: Good point : 30A continuous (these are the only ones able to do it while being 18650 Li-Ion) and 60A pulsed per cell. Bad point : each cell only packs 1500mAh so you need MANY parallels to actually get useful capacity. But then you have a crazy long-life battery! And it is still lighter than LiPo usually, and WAY laighter than Lifepo4. I don't know why I'm the only one interested in these cells here.
EDIT : Wait did I came late to the party?
Well, there are other 18650's able to deliver 30+ amps continuous, and with higher capacity (HD2, Sony Vtc4, etc) .
..and for a drag race situation , ( < 10 sec run time, and life is of no concern ?) ...there are many others that would serve also..(Samsung 25R, 30Q..)
But, you still won't be able to match the kW/kg of those 200C , 4.5 Ahr , Lipos !
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Vanarian » Feb 26, 2016 4:51 am

For sure, those Lipos drag are unmatched! Though even the 200C discharge rate needs to be carefully looked at. 200C would mean 900 amps per cell, that's possible only if you have enough capacity and low IR to allow this much current to get out of batteries, apart from custom model like DrBass may have, no batteries in the RC market are able to give this 900A per cell . Once paralleled though, that's another story!

If I get back the link where I got all big brands Lipos versus, I will post it here. HK Nano Tech for example perform good but nowhere close to 100-130C.

Though you were misinformed about all the cells you quote, none of them can deliver 30A continuous, even the "mighty" Sony VTC5 are nothing more than solid 20A. Even Samsung 25R which are supposed to be 22A continuous deteriorate at 22A.

Above 20A all these cells damage and give bad discharge (not regular, curve fails down a lot). That's like getting a too small pipe of fuel which would dilate itself when you over pressure it yet not designed to dilate. It will badly do the job past it limits and won't last long.

Actually more people should be informed about this, even reputed brands lie a lot about true discharge ratings.

The only 18650 cells tested and known to push 30A at normal CDR temperature and no damage are a123 system 18650 1200mAh cells, actually discontinued, and LG HB2 / HB4 / HB6.
Unknown contender would be Lithium hydrogen cells but I couldn't find a proper discharge test for 18650 LI-HP so until then I won't consider the rating to be anything true.

(Yes I got too much time spent on searching for batteries and infos :lol: )
I needed to turn Air Gear stuff into reality so I am making this!
-+Electric inline skates - no remote control - weight / angle sensor - hub motors - one frame for all wheels sizes between 80/125mm - from 3.2 to 12 KW :mrgreen:

Rollo Ergo Sum!

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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Hillhater » Feb 26, 2016 7:38 am

As you say , ALL of these cells will deteriorate at this level of discharge, and I don't know of any tests to quantify or compare that effect on cell life. Even the A123s are known to deteriorate .
But there certainly are other 18650's that can discharge at that level, some with less sag, some with more capacity.
But as I said in another thread....how many users/applications are there that would ever use that level of continuous discharge ?
I'm sure you will have come across this...
Image
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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Punx0r » Feb 26, 2016 7:51 am

Cycle life and continuous discharge capability (which is usually limited by heat) are pretty irrelevant for drag racing.

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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Vanarian » Feb 26, 2016 8:55 am

Punx0r wrote:Cycle life and continuous discharge capability (which is usually limited by heat) are pretty irrelevant for drag racing.
That's if you have required funds to often replace the over used batteries. Cycle life means also bigger number of races!

Hill hater :arrow:
Actually for bike racing that's not a huge requirement but for e-boards current drawn during acceleration or cruising speed is bigger (too small wheels / limited reduction / bad aerodynamic). Hills draw current too that's what I was thinking.

But all you said is true, and hill climbing is not related to drag racing so.. Not the best place to talk about this :P
I needed to turn Air Gear stuff into reality so I am making this!
-+Electric inline skates - no remote control - weight / angle sensor - hub motors - one frame for all wheels sizes between 80/125mm - from 3.2 to 12 KW :mrgreen:

Rollo Ergo Sum!

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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Punx0r » Feb 26, 2016 10:27 am

How many dozen or hundreds of passes on the drag strip would you expect to make with one battery (or indeed any other drivetrain component)?

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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Hillhater » Feb 26, 2016 4:05 pm

Pro drag racers will happily burn a $50k motor I'd if means the difference between winning and losing !
But of course for you and me "hobby" racers, we would not want to destroy the pack every pass.
But ..again, you don't enter these competitions without knowing its will cost $$$$s...and the pack may just be a limited life item.?
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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 27, 2016 2:56 pm

Take a look to the actual John Metric Dragster:

He use not one but 4 zilla2K controller of 2000 Amp each

and he supply these with 10P of the same cells as i am using.

If you think about that , that's abouty 2.5p per 2000Amp

Image


http://www.evalbum.com/5169



Vehicle 2002 2002 Monden
240" Top Dragster
Motor Netgain Warp9 Series Wound DC
Four Warp9 motors in parallel with four Zilla-
2KEHV controllers
Drivetrain Four Warp9
2 into 1 gearbox 0.5 overdrive
Lenco Three speed
2.2 First gear 1.56 second gear
Controller Manzanita Micro Zilla-2KEHV
Four Z2k-EHV controllers one to each motor.
Batteries 355.00 Volt, Lithium-Polymer
10P96S 100C Drag Racing Batteries from Lonestar
EV Performance and http://www.ampahaulic.com
System Voltage 355 Volts
DC/DC Converter 100Amp
200-700VDC input 100amp 13.8VDC output
Top Speed 200 MPH (321 KPH)
Shooting for 200mph in 1/4 mile
Acceleration 1.22 best 60ft so far.

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 27, 2016 3:00 pm

Here is a very interesting discussion about the battery choice in drag racing:


John Metric of LoneStar EV @ EVCCON2013: High Performance from Stock Parts

https://youtu.be/KlTgNmdTJ5Q?t=12m36s

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Doctorbass
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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 27, 2016 3:05 pm

And the most exciting view about EV drag racing!!

was posted 2 minutes ago!!!!


Ran a best of 4.94 at 139mph today. 1.19 60 ft



Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by jmetric » Dec 22, 2017 9:43 pm

Doctorbass wrote:
Jul 14, 2015 1:03 pm
I have contacted John Metric to get a quote for 4x 6s packs rated 100C. These are 120$ each, not bad. The A-Spec Nanotech are impossible to get in Canada now and i would trust more a EV racing legent like John than HK!
4.5 Ah 6S 22.2V nominal 25V charged with large 8AWG cables and 8mm bullet connectors are $120 each
Doc
Doctor.
I have ordered some custom built factory welded 100/200C 4S 5Ah modules.
These are for a special customers RC boat electric speed record kilo run.
These cells have wide 35mm wide heavy nickel tabs. And they have been tested to 650amps "continuous". Continuous and the continuous rating terms are kind of a misnomer when the cell is only a mere 17seconds from full charge to full voltage drop off or "empty". So continuous takes on a new meaning with these cells. They do not have enough time to reach continuous operating temperature before they are empty. Literally a sub milliohm cell that just doesn't get too hot! These cells are in all three top Dragsters right now. Garlits, Huff, Metric. None have reported hot temps yet.


The modules have twin 8AWG high temp silicone cables terminated with 8mm gold plated bullet connectors. The connectors are still the weak spot so we doubled the connections. These cells have broken into the 10HP/lb or roughly 20kW/kg zone.

My new car has dropped nearly 1100lbs but is projected to make the same RWHP power. We have dropped nearly 150lbs of battery by switching to the new cells. Garlits dropped nearly 100lbs.

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Re: Best E-bike Drag Racing battery

Post by Punx0r » Dec 29, 2017 2:01 pm

jmetric wrote:
Dec 22, 2017 9:43 pm
These cells have broken into the 10HP/lb or roughly 20kW/kg zone.
The best Maxwell Ultracaps peaks at 14kW/kg so that's quite something...

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