18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by peleap » Mar 05, 2017 4:49 am

It requires a thick sheet of nickel for current 40 amp 48V
NCR18650GA cell 13S6P

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by zooz » Mar 28, 2017 7:01 am

I am in the process of building a new battery pack for my Q76R frame and MAX-E. I calculated that I can easily fit 180 cells using spacers. That will give me a nice pack of 20S9P. Given that a single VTC4 can burst at 30A, nickel won't cut it.

I tried various options:
- Solder copper wires to nickel and then spot weld nickel to cells (too much hassle).
- Spot weld nickel strips to copper sheet, poke holes in the copper and then spot weld nickel onto the cells (nickel does not weld to copper easily).

Things I haven't tried and I won't be trying:
- Solder copper wires to cells.

However, what works extremely well is "spot welding" 0.3mm copper strip onto cells using a small piece of solder in between. I have a slightly modified Sunkko 788H spot welder that does the job perfectly. I have it running at 70/2 and current setting at 8 (will probably need to fine tune that as I go). The cell does get hot, but it is OK to touch after 1-2s,

See pictures for yourself, also, please tell me why this is such a bad idea before I go ahead and "spot solder-weld" onto expensive cells.
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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by riba2233 » Mar 28, 2017 8:58 am

I think you are heating cells too much. After normal welding you can't feel any heat on the cells. Just make parallel packs with 0.15 8 mm nickel, and then connect them in series with bare copper 1.5mm2 solid wire soldered on nickel tape between each cell. I guarantee that will be more than sufficient and cells will like it.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by tomjasz » Mar 28, 2017 10:35 am

Hello Riba!

I was wondering if the additional diodes used on the latest designs, the arduino welder are something that might be useful on your welder?
You really started quite the revolution!

Thanks!

Tom
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by riba2233 » Mar 29, 2017 1:38 pm

Thanks,

well they are useful if you go overboard with power, and want to weld thicker materials more reliably. But not necessary for 99% users. You can make high current design even with 0.15 or 0.2 mm nickel, just like I've described in my previous post, or like litespeed described.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by emaayan » Mar 29, 2017 2:39 pm

define high current :)

i'm planning on doing 30 amps on 52v , on panasonic pf, i've managed to obtain from nkon before they closed of their gates to israel, around 102 cells.

now i'm wondering if i should stick with a 7p14S or try and obtain the rest from a another supplier by smaller packages. and then run each cell with charge test (like using a charger does automatically charge and discharge 3 times) ..


another problem is i'd like to do a triangle pack, and with 7-8 groups i maybe run into an issue where one group has only 2 cells facing another group. i have no idea how many strips i should use.

i also am not sure how much do the slots in strips help in welding...
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by tomjasz » Mar 30, 2017 4:28 pm

emaayan wrote:define high current :)

i'm planning on doing 30 amps on 52v , on panasonic pf, i've managed to obtain from nkon before they closed of their gates to israel, around 102 cells.
Draft a layout and define the parameters. Post the drawing here and on ES FB. Damian and Micah were kind enough to sort the nickel layout. Others will pitch in too. Then share the finished drawing with others. Don't over think...
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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by emaayan » Mar 30, 2017 5:02 pm

"don't over think.." yea

well the INITIAL layout was something along the lines like this when i thought i would have all 124 cells from nkon
pack.JPG
pack.JPG (144.57 KiB) Viewed 213 times
i even thought of asking someone from ali-express to make me sheets or a roll of a 0.15 strip shaped like so,
runds.JPG
runds.JPG (98.7 KiB) Viewed 213 times
(as they also provide full strips https://www.aliexpress.com/item/99-96-P ... 64636.html and can make custom shapes)

but now i'm not even sure about that, they keep telling to make sure my batteries are ordered from the supplier and from the same batch, but if i order my cells in groups of 30 cells each time, they are probably not from the same batch.
my em3ev is currently entering it's 4th year usage, and my estimates are it's has around 15AH (out of 25ah) thus i'm not exactly pressed for time,i want my pack to last as long as possible , so if i build a pack now, with only 7p , i would only have 18.2AH, (ok 20, but i'm always calculate by 90% charge) , so would it be worth just for 3 extra AH?

OTOH , if i start ordering cells in smaller quantities from another supplier, til i do reach the target destination, what method of validation, other then automatic charge test of 3 cycles to make sure they can be used together.

too many dependencies.
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by tomjasz » Mar 30, 2017 9:58 pm

Overthinking. If you cant, get them all at once, you can't, just do it.
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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by markz » Mar 30, 2017 10:04 pm

You can buy the full width sheet, and find someone locally with a CNC machine. A great idea if I say so myself.

My tab welder seems a little weak when trying to do two 0.10 from Supower I think I bought them from.
If I can do up another spot welder, adruino based or something, for a reasonable cost, I'd chaulk it up as a hobby/amusement cost.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by emaayan » Mar 31, 2017 1:37 am

just do what? get them from another supplier? how dangerous is it?
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by tomjasz » Mar 31, 2017 2:14 pm

emaayan wrote:just do what? get them from another supplier? how dangerous is it?
If you think it's dangerous don't do it. I'd think it's FAR less dangerous than Lipo or salvage. I bought groups, but i only go as high as 70 batts in the biggest pack. I'm donwtuning to 36V in the coming years. The opposite of the direction most see are taking. Unfortunately I tested my bikes braking distances....
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by emaayan » Apr 01, 2017 12:20 pm

i don't have enough data to know if it's dangerous or not, i don't want to blow up or anything, this is probably the last battery i'll build, so i want to last as long as possible

my upper limit is 52v, and considering the fact that at 700 watts i usually do 35 kph, i'm pretty sure it's comparable to hubs at 36v, infact most of my ride is 35-40, i usually want less speed and more torque, for acceleration.

i have no idea how to do braking distance tests, would love to , it's one of the things i miss the most, i could fine tune it more by the tests.
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by tomjasz » Apr 01, 2017 1:08 pm

emaayan wrote:i don't have enough data to know if it's dangerous or not, i don't want to blow up or anything, this is probably the last battery i'll build, so i want to last as long as possible

my upper limit is 52v, and considering the fact that at 700 watts i usually do 35 kph, i'm pretty sure it's comparable to hubs at 36v, infact most of my ride is 35-40, i usually want less speed and more torque, for acceleration.

i have no idea how to do braking distance tests, would love to , it's one of the things i miss the most, i could fine tune it more by the tests.
Grab a friend. Have them spot you. Ride toward the friend and have them signal you to stop. Ride at them at your normal cruising speed and when they signal do an emergency full stop. Measure the distance. It'll give you a rough but reasonably accurate idea. Using a friend to signal adds the reaction time. It spooked me as I increased speed, the distances grew significantly. It's also good to practice avoidance skills and swerving. Also with a mate who signals. See MSF training online.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by tomjasz » Apr 03, 2017 2:36 pm

My backup welder arrived! FAST shipping and super price. I wish we could ship registered mail as cheaply as this German fellow! WOW Fast and tracked all the way!

(best dummies too!)
Attachments
Screen Shot 2017-04-03 at 2.32.31 PM.png
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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by Offroader » Apr 03, 2017 3:24 pm

tomjasz wrote:My backup welder arrived! FAST shipping and super price. I wish we could ship registered mail as cheaply as this German fellow! WOW Fast and tracked all the way!

(best dummies too!)
Can you post the link of this welder?

Why do you need a backup welder?

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by Allex » Apr 03, 2017 4:21 pm

Always have backup, I have 2 just in case one brakes and I need to finish the job =)

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by tomjasz » Apr 03, 2017 5:16 pm

Offroader wrote: Can you post the link of this welder?

Why do you need a backup welder?
First off they're cheap. 1/3 of the cost of a POS China made.

Secondly I will soon depend on my welders to have batteries. I have backup parts for ALL my motors as well. I do not drive and it's biking season I have a backup bike as well. (actually 5, but two 25+mph)
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by tomjasz » Apr 03, 2017 5:16 pm

Offroader wrote:
tomjasz wrote:My backup welder arrived! FAST shipping and super price. I wish we could ship registered mail as cheaply as this German fellow! WOW Fast and tracked all the way!

(best dummies too!)
Can you post the link of this welder?

Why do you need a backup welder?
Just Google Arduino Battery Spot Welder. Easy Peasy. Google a number of ways... battery spot welder 12v

https://www.google.com/search?client=sa ... 8&oe=UTF-8

BTW order the 25th and arrived today from Germany REGISTERED mail so you will have to sign for it!
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by Offroader » Apr 04, 2017 12:16 am

Allex wrote:Always have backup, I have 2 just in case one brakes and I need to finish the job =)
I agree and my spot welder broke twice, but now I just have an extra set of fets, and the programable micro chip. Usually those will be the most likely things to go, or they went on mine. Anything else you can quickly order them.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by tomjasz » Apr 04, 2017 12:05 pm

Offroader wrote:Anything else you can quickly order them.
Quickly doesn't help if you don't have the skill set developed. Old guys, some of us, learn more slowly. $80 is cheap insurance!

Any hints on WHY they went?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by parabellum » Apr 05, 2017 4:14 pm

tomjasz wrote:
Just Google Arduino Battery Spot Welder. Easy Peasy. Google a number of ways... battery spot welder 12v

https://www.google.com/search?client=sa ... 8&oe=UTF-8

BTW order the 25th and arrived today from Germany REGISTERED mail so you will have to sign for it!
It looks like his site is down now. Which channel did you use to contact him?

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by tomjasz » Apr 05, 2017 7:12 pm

parabellum wrote:
tomjasz wrote:
Just Google Arduino Battery Spot Welder. Easy Peasy. Google a number of ways... battery spot welder 12v

https://www.google.com/search?client=sa ... 8&oe=UTF-8

BTW order the 25th and arrived today from Germany REGISTERED mail so you will have to sign for it!
It looks like his site is down now. Which channel did you use to contact him?
Go to tindie and search. It was about 4-5 hits down n the google post. Easy...

https://www.tindie.com/products/KaeptnB ... uilt-kit-/
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by emaayan » Apr 09, 2017 11:38 am

He setup his own shop, it took a couple of days for it settle,
https://malectrics.eu/
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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Re: 18650 spot welding -how to- ULTIMATE REPOSITORY

Post by tomjasz » Apr 10, 2017 1:23 am

The malectric version lists a 12v 2A 3s Lipo. Would 3s 18650 be sufficient? HG2?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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