Are batteries more expensive than petrol?

SaladFish

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Hello from Australia.

I am interested in building an electric powered motorcycle as a cheaper alternative to petrol power.

The problem is that batteries cost more than petrol.

Example.

Panasonic, NCR18650, 169 batteries
48v, 40a, 1938 watt hour.
13p, 13s, Weight 7.61kg (45g each)

Cost: 169 batteries x $7.76 each = $1,311.44 Source (http://www.banggood.com/NCR-3100mAH-18650-3_7-V-Lithium-Rechargeable-Battery-For-Panasonic-p-72905.html)

How much petrol can I buy with $1,311.44? 931 litres, which on my cbr125r takes me a staggering 32,576.58km at 37km/L.

Will the above mentioned battery pack last 32,576 km before it needs to be replaced?

Note: If there are batteries that sell for much less then let me know as I'd like to make this project work.

Also note: Sure I could build a super light and efficient motorcycle with minimal frontal area and aerodynamic fairing to extend the range but if petrol is still cheaper then electric is bunk.
 
If your only criterion is basic cost then continue to ride your CBR125R.

The total cost of ownership over 10 years of buying a new EV compared to a new ICE vehicle is beginning to become comparable (usually with a little tax incentive). Expecting to build and run an EV bike for less than the cost of putting petrol into an ICE one you already own is unrealistic, but doesn't mean the entire concept of EVs is "bunk".
 
Yes the question would be regarding extra cost of a moped/motorcycle over 30K km?

Surely you would have change the chain, tyre, oil, brakes and much more.

And you add on top of that insurance cost and parking cost.

For an ebike, if you get a nice DD, the bike is self maintaining as you don't need to fix parts (except from tyres), you can bring it home, filter through traffic, park anywhere and regen save on brakes.
 
Panasonic 18650B cells cost about 3,90€ a pop at nkon.com
That equals 4.3$ That is if you live in the EU
 
Have you tried contacting suppliers on Alibaba? The last updated price list I got from one seller, the NCR18650B cell was listed as $2,92, not including shipping.
 
you know.. this is a very good question..

I go electric with a lot of my stuff because i love the power & feel of a electric and the low cost of owning it once its paid for.

For example.. My outboard boat motor conversion.. probably ran me in the 1500$ range roughly, not including my time and batteries...

i'll never make my money back in its use as i simply don't go "boating enough"

My X6 trike.. I probably have 3K into minus the battery again.. this is simply for fun.. burnouts.. drifts.. quick 0-60 times.. adrenaline rush ..

....


my new kia soul ev - ran me about 47k after incentives from the government of Ontario

Lets see.. i have about 70$ in hydro costs into it - i charge on off peak times only..... i put about 4500km on her ..

if we compare her to my wifes sunfire 2005 with a 2.2 l..for similar milage put on.. i'd be at about 460$ in fuel costs.. (avg)

in the long run it will pay its self maybe not fully, but at least it pays itself back!

-steveo
 
Existing motorcycle: I am also considering building an individually constructed vehicle either using my existing motorcycle engine or electric motor and parts to ensure a small frontal area 0.35<. This also requires cost analysis but this thread is about the cost of batteries which need replacing and petrol.

Parking: Costs nothing for motorcycle, easy to make your own parking.
Filtering: Legal in Australia.
Insurance: Under 225cc motorcycle is the same cost as any electric vehicle (any power). $105 per year

Ebike: Limited to 250watt which is not powerful enough to replace petrol motorcycle. Needs to be registered as ICV if more power used.

Oil, coolant change: I did not include this because it is not a significant cost. I also didn't include the cost of electricity. The reason I did not include these expenses is because electric batteries and petrol are the most expensive considerations. If batteries are vastly more expensive than petrol then there should not be a need for "tie breaker" smaller expenses.

Alibaba?: I am not familiar with buying from alibaba and I am a bit cautious regarding fake 18650 batteries. Does anyone recommend a reliable source with competitive pricing?

I will add more to my reply I need to get to work.

Edit: More detail ( love detail but lets try no to get bogged down, it is battery cost that needs to be solved first).

Electricity.

NCR18650A has 500 cycles (http://industrial.panasonic.com/cdbs/www-data/pdf2/ACI4000/ACI4000CE25.pdf)

500 x 1.938Wh = 969.215 Wh (this is with full discharge).

Cost per Kwh 23.331 Cents (https://www.originenergy.com.au/content/dam/origin/residential/docs/energy-price-fact-sheets/nsw/NSW_Electricity_Residential_AusGrid_Origin%20Supply.PDF)

969.215Wh x 22.331 cents = $216.43 <----- Total cost of electricity over the life of the battery pack

Initial battery cost: $1,311.44
Life time Electricity cost: $216.43
Total: $1,527.88

Petrol costs

Oil

Oil change every = 8,000km
Oil change costs = 17.38 (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Silkolene-Super-4-Motorcycle-Oil-10W-40-1-Litre.aspx?pid=124141#Recommendations)
(34438.1km / 8,000 = 4.304762 oil changes) x 17.38 per oil change = $74.81

Coolant

Cost: $13.55
Lasts: 250,000 or 5 years.
Total cost = $13.55

Spark plug
too infrequent to mention

Sprocket, Chain
Sprockets and chain for mid drive electric anyway

Battery for petrol motorcycle
2p 4s 8 total batteries (15v, 6a)
$8.15 x 8 batteries = $65.20
Needs to be changed every 0-5 years (depends if I leave the keys in, lets pretend I don't leave the keys in).

Cost analysis

Petrol 34438.10 km
Petrol $1,311.44 + Oil $74.81 + Coolant $13.55 + Battery $65.2 = $1,465.00

EV 969.215Kwh (less than 34,000 km but unsure how far).
Batteries $1,311.44 + electricity 216.44 = $1,527.88

Are my calculations correct? It appears that I have proven electric power is not economically competitive?
 
You can buy batteries with decent price:

http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/samsung-inr18650-29e.html

http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/sony-us18650vtc4-flat-top.html

These are just examples, there is a lot of them to chose.

Panasonic NCR18650A are too expensive and have bad performance, they are like dinosaur these days.
 
riba2233 said:
You can buy batteries with decent price:

http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/samsung-inr18650-29e.html

http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/sony-us18650vtc4-flat-top.html

These are just examples, there is a lot of them to chose.

Panasonic NCR18650A are too expensive and have bad performance, they are like dinosaur these days.

I ran the numbers for the two links

Samsung INR18650-29E Li-ion 3,7V 2900 mAh (http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/samsung-inr18650-29e.html)
48.1v, 40.6a, 1.952.86Kwh, 182 batteries
14p 13s 182 total batteries 8.74kg
Cost: (€2.55 (over40) is $3.87 AUD x 182) + shipping €55.00 ($83.39AUD) = $787.02 AUD (saving of $524.42)

Sony Konion US18650VTC4 3.6V 2100mAh (http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/sony-us18650vtc4-flat-top.html)
48.1v, 39.9 a, 1.919.19 Kwh 247 batteries (instead of 169 NCR18650A due to lower amps)
19p 13s 247 total batteries 11.86kg (instread of 7.61kg due to lower amps)
Cost: €2.45 (over200) is $3.72 AUD x 247 + shipping €55.00 ($83.39AUD) = $1002.23 that is a saving of $309.21.

The first option is the clear winner here.

I'll let you guys give some more input. I think there may be more I can learn before coming to a final decision of petrol vs electric in my project.
 
Running the numbers on a cell doesn't include doing anything with the datasheet BS values, as the datasheet is only the place a mfg writes lies about the product.


Batteries can only be more 'expensive' in a situation where burning petrol doesn't directly poison the air for all living beings. Planet earth is our spaceship shared by a few billion other folks, it's life support system includes a razor thin bit of atmosphere clinging to the surface by gravity in an otherwise closed system (vacuum of space effectively sealing it.)

Petrol will only be cheapest in a situation where directly causing the deaths of billions of living beings is considered a bargain of some type. In a non-psychopathic world where the inhabitants of the spaceship see themselves in a closed system, any device that sprays poisons into the singular life-support system is obviously too costly if species survival is an interest.

I'm currently traveling in China, I can tell you what it looks like, tastes, like, burns like to continue spraying toxins into the life support system, it's nothing anyone wants where they breathe, yet there are more atom's of air in a single human breath than the entire atmosphere contains lung-fulls of air.

ATB,
-Luke
 
I've never seen the Saudis do anything really crappy with money won from lithium - so I reckon petrol is more expensive for the population.
 
+1 live for physics

IMHO you missed out the rebuilding of the motorcycle engine at $2000 every 40,000k (assuming you ride it like a granny)

CR500 i played with in the past needed a rebuild at a couple of grand every 5000k if you were going hard.
racing it brought that number back to 1000kms.

Assuming you build a more typical conversion bike $1000 + ebike kit from em3ev at $2k including a ~800Wh battery which will go 40kms at 55kmh with some pedaling or 100kms + at 35kmh avg speed. Mac motor make well more than the legal limit but people do it anyway.

I do it for the planet add a couple of hundred bucks and can charge it for nicks from the sun- solar panel

k
 
For a commuter electric motorcycle which has more room for a big, heavy battery, I would recommend big prismatic LiFe cells since they are much cheaper and that chemistry is noted to last basically forever with no calendar life and heat life issues like the Leaf batteries and ratings of 2-3000 cycles. I got 1,550 kWh of salvage A123 AMP20 cells from OSNPower delivered for $700US. Your shipping might be less than the $180 I had to pay which could get your price under $0.40US per Wh. You would have to limit these cells to 40 Amps though.
.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=46395&start=225#p1111144
.
 
The single most economical vehicle I ever owned in my entire life was a CB 125. I have no idea how many miles they last, because I certainly never could wear mine out. It was very old and used when I got it. I did replace the rear shocks at one point, and the muffler rusted away to be replaced with a straight pipe taken off a vacuum cleaner, and the seat vynil needed replacing. The engine? Hell it kept on ticking along perfectly, never even getting a new spark plug in 3 years. Then, I sold it for a hundred bucks more than I paid for it.

So I seriously doubt you can improve on your CB in economy. It's the bare bones bike of all time, exceeded only by the Honda 90 for economy.

Convert it only if your motor does actually break.
 
obviously i'm hard on gear and like to touch the redline in most gears most rides :D

Joy of the ebike is bike paths, no cars to hit me there :lol:
 
sendler2112 said:
For a commuter electric motorcycle which has more room for a big, heavy battery, I would recommend big prismatic LiFe cells since they are much cheaper and that chemistry is noted to last basically forever with no calendar life and heat life issues like the Leaf batteries and ratings of 2-3000 cycles. I got 1,550 kWh of salvage A123 AMP20 cells from OSNPower delivered for $700US. Your shipping might be less than the $180 I had to pay which could get your price under $0.40US per Wh. You would have to limit these cells to 40 Amps though.
.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=46395&start=225#p1111144
.


Nice thinking. Reality is the big prismatic T-sag and T-sag clones fail (uselessly high impedance) faster than any other cell I've seen tested on a cycler. They also aren't magically immune to anything like calandar life or heat (nothing is).

I've been lucky enough to get 3 EV's for virtually free now as a result of large format prismatic packs failing in vehicles in a few years of use.

Once again, droplets of ink don't refuse paper, and the marketing department for a cell mfg is free to arrange them into whatever fantastical claims they may think will cause more sales.

ATB,
-Luke
 
liveforphysics said:
Reality is the big prismatic T-sag and T-sag clones fail (uselessly high impedance) faster than any other cell I've seen tested on a cycler. e
LiFe cells? A123 AMP20 cells? Their literature shows 3000 cylcles to 90%. I've never read of anyone replacing any of these cells. They still make voltage after having a hatchet chopped through them and only even begin to get hot and smoke if you shoot a hole through them with a 12 ga slug and then poke at the hole with a crow bar.
 
sendler2112 said:
liveforphysics said:
Reality is the big prismatic T-sag and T-sag clones fail (uselessly high impedance) faster than any other cell I've seen tested on a cycler. e
LiFe cells? A123 AMP20 cells? Their literature shows 3000 cylcles to 90%. I've never read of anyone replacing any of these cells. They still make voltage after having a hatchet chopped through them and only even begin to get hot and smoke if you shoot a hole through them with a 12 ga slug and then poke at the hole with a crow bar.

Same thing for the cells in Leaf modules. Look it up on youtube.
 
mistercrash said:
Leaf modules.
Unfortunately the Nissan Leaf LiMn batteries are sensitive to heat aging with many cars in Arizona needing a replacement already after only 60,000 miles/ 700 cycles. At least they have stepped up to offer a really cheap price for the new part. $6,500US minus $1,000 for your core. So that is $0.30 / Wh? for a complete automotive battery.
 
I dont think this is the place to talk about ICE. Compare battery cost at your will. Going electric is not about saving cash, its about way of life, about minimising your personal carbon footprint, making the world a bit cleaner for the generations to come and perhaps converting few people to electrics. If you still think gaser, i dont think its the right place for you.
 
You missed to bring up the resale value from the both systems.

Just take a look at these:
8-electric-bike-motor.jpg

dirt-bike-engine.jpg


How many moving parts and points of failure you can see?
For the gas engine i have no clue (maybe 20 or 30 or 60?) but the DD hub i know its 2 bearings.

Even when batteries would cost double as now i would stick to the better system!
 
agniusm said:
I dont think this is the place to talk about ICE. Compare battery cost at your will. Going electric is not about saving cash, its about way of life, about minimising your personal carbon footprint, making the world a bit cleaner for the generations to come and perhaps converting few people to electrics. If you still think gaser, i dont think its the right place for you.

Isn't this site the perfect place to compare ICE vs Electric ?
Look at the thread title...nice and obvious question !...he is basically asking what other costs are associated with ICE.
But as we mostly know, it's not just a simple cost of fuel comparison.
 
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