How to recell Bosch Powerpack batteries?

edrift.eu

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Does anyone know how to successfully repair (replace the cells) on Bosch ebike batterypacks?

Ive heard someone on this forum ( Omikron ) bought a refurbished pack on ebay and another one mentioned that you can send it to china to have it recelled. Also e-bike-vision.de are selling after market replacements.

The older bosch batterier only has 3 pins so they should be easier then the newer ones (2014+) with 5 pins.

Has anyone tried to replace the BMS? Since it uses "Flexible flat cable" that are very hard to remove without damaging then replacing the BMS seems to be only option. Right?

Any recommendations, links and sources are very helpfull! ive read all post regarding Bosch Powerpack on this forum and what little i can find on google.
 
Guess you're located in Europe.
You can get your Powerpack re-celled at akkuplus.de in Germany.
There's two options of battery capacity to choose from.
If you want to swap the cellblock yourself, you can buy a bare cellblock and save some shipping expenses.
https://akkuplus.de/Akkupack-fuer-Bosch-Powerpack-400-0275007512-36-Volt-Li-Ion-zum-Selbsteinbau
But don't try to replace the BMS, the Drive unit does not work with some noname BMS.
 
Thanks for the info Speady. that was speedy!

The problem is the "Flexible flat cable" that are extremely hard to remove an resolder. The pack for selfinstallation seem to be only the cells, glues together and and welded. That is the easy part.

Have you tested this service or what is your experience with them?
 
It would be useful to mention what version of Bosch Powerpack you have, is it Classic or Performance?
Did you already open the plastic casing?
I don't own any overpriced Bosch crap myself, but in Germany it is very popular.
Maybe the threads on german pedelecforum can guide you, at least the pics.
Classic battery:
http://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/classic-akku-zerlegen-neue-zellen-einbauen-abschaltspannungen-288er-und-400er.15072/page-30
Performance Powerpack
http://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/performance-akku-zerlegen-zellentausch-abschaltspannungen.38771/page-2

Kepp in mind, industry wants you to buy new things every couple years. Swapping cells isn't planned in the first place and takes some time and effort.
 
edrift.eu said:
Does anyone know how to successfully repair (replace the cells) on Bosch ebike batterypacks?

Ive heard someone on this forum ( Omikron ) bought a refurbished pack on ebay and another one mentioned that you can send it to china to have it recelled. Also e-bike-vision.de are selling after market replacements.

The older bosch batterier only has 3 pins so they should be easier then the newer ones (2014+) with 5 pins.

Has anyone tried to replace the BMS? Since it uses "Flexible flat cable" that are very hard to remove without damaging then replacing the BMS seems to be only option. Right?

Any recommendations, links and sources are very helpfull! ive read all post regarding Bosch Powerpack on this forum and what little i can find on google.
Perfromance line i rebuild thes with succes and original cell holders-good brand cells(panansonic pf for the 400 and sanyo GA for the 500 packs).
The classic line i,am wurking on...and yes the hard part are these tiny flat flexible sense cables.
I,am sorting out the pins for minus-B1+2+3+...10+ and the two lines for the temp sensor...the bms looks the same and they have 3 smal wires for can usb to the motor controlller.
ebikevision/beltrona are crap!i sold 3 of them and 1 is death and the range from a 460wh pack is les as a original bosch 400 pack!i dont sell these anymore.
The germany company in the link you buy just a ordinary hot gleu pack for 300Euro :shock:
The cel holders and configuration are the same in the classic and performance line bosch packs.
I will try to make a new connector with normal wires @that point rebuilding the classic line bosch is just as easy like the newer bosch packs.
 
Do you have an update on this project? I too am interested in the transition from flat cable -> normal wires.
 
Joachim, I have my BMS damaged and want to replace it. Do you know which one can I take? So far I know, Bosch BMS's are customized for their system. What are this 3 small wires exactly for? Where can I get this information?
 
Same issue here, bosch powerpack 500 with dead BMS, no way to replace it ? :lowbatt: :pancake:
 
BMS''s from these packs, especially the newer ones seem to die a lot.

as fas as i see the newer BMS from the flat models tend to self destruct if you disconnect the wires to the cell pack.
you need to hook up a fake pack in parralel while doing the swap so the bms doesnt commit suicide.
prehaps it does not kill itself but every pack i have tried never came back from a complete power loss.
i am missing the magic trick to reset the bms.
what i have found out is that the 300Wh flat models have LG cells and have the same physical capacity as the 400Wh packs with PF cells in them. but the BMS activly limits the capacity to 300Wh in the "smaller" pack, so recelling a capped bms might give interesting results. it would be pretty shitty if you put a 500+Wh cell pack in it and you are artificially limited to 300Wh...
i have found this out while havng the battery connected to the bike with the system on and draining the battery at the motor connector.
 
Holly shit :lol:

Finally my battery is 400wh and my BMS looks OK, I will try to replace my 12 dead cells to resurrect it (only 3 years old and 500kms .. so maybe 10 charges :roll: )
 
flippy said:
you need to hook up a fake pack in parralel while doing the swap so the bms doesnt commit suicide

Is there a tutorial on how to do this?
I have an external power source that can generate 36v. But I have no idea how I should connect it to the bms in parallel.
 
Stax said:
Is there a tutorial on how to do this?
I have an external power source that can generate 36v. But I have no idea how I should connect it to the bms in parallel.

you dont need a single power supply, you need 10 of them, all isolated from each other.
 
flippy said:
Stax said:
Is there a tutorial on how to do this?
I have an external power source that can generate 36v. But I have no idea how I should connect it to the bms in parallel.

you dont need a single power supply, you need 10 of them, all isolated from each other.

Ok. And how am I supposed to do that?
How do you connect a parallel battery pack to the bms?
 
Did the OP successfully re-cell his powerpack? I have a couple of 2017 Powerpack 500s I want to recell but keep running into rumors and anecdotes about the BMS suicide chip. These are somewhat older batteries, like I said, dating to 2017. I've posted about this here recently myself. What year did they add that chip? I've seen people re-celling the Classic+ by just desoldering it from the board, no tricks or anything were used. But then maybe they are using an expensive battery tester to revive the BMS? They never actually show it on the bike, what the capacity is, et cetera, just that it lights up when plugged into a charger after the swap.
 
its not a rumor, its very real.

the bms has all its programming in RAM, not ROM/flash memory. removing the board from the batteries will cut the power to the ram and then all the programming is gone instantly.

large recellers simply have a specilized 10 output power supply to keep the bms active during the swap. they also dont have the programming from bosch.
 
Batteryrepair said:
I've repaired over 15 Bosch batteries with defect BMS's by just swapping them, no "suicide chips".

If you mean by swapping the BMS, well, the "suicide chip" would be in the BMS, so...it might depend on the swapping procedure.

What is your specific step by step repair procedure?

It also might depend on which specific battery as to whether it has this problem or not.
 
The most recent packs that has been damaged has not had their bms broken but the cells had somehow gone astray in voltages and that kinda mean the groups has gone off in capacity to one another. LG MG1.s 2000AH or 3000AH given out before this kind of weird error. I would guesss 200-300 cycles only. (2500/ 11,6ah = 215 )
 
I have come across a number of packs with damage and all have been bms error of some kind. As the voltages of the cells has been perfect untill the three most recent cases, the group voltages of the cells were like 3,8, 3,8 4,08, 3,9 , 4,17, 3,8 ...

and for two of those packs their lifetime ah given AH was 2000-3000.

To get how many cycles you need to know how much one cycle is. One cycle is 11,4ah or 4x2,85ah that is the capacity of a cell group. I didn't specify an exact number but to my knowledge brand cells last 1000 cycles and noname 500 cycles as a genral rule.

By stating 200-300 it is very low cycle life and use of a battery. The batteries are at most about 4 years old and should keep on going at least 8-12. But as we know reality is not the same as theory.
 
leffex said:
LG MG1.s 2000AH or 3000AH given out before this kind of weird error. I would guesss 200-300 cycles only. (2500/ 11,6ah = 215 )

To get how many cycles you need to know how much one cycle is. One cycle is 11,4ah or 4x2,85ah that is the capacity of a cell group. I didn't specify an exact number but to my knowledge brand cells last 1000 cycles and noname 500 cycles as a genral rule.

ebuilder said:
Forgive me for asking the same question twice but will try again....
What does this quotient mean? Can you ascribe units to your math...
(2500/ 11,6ah = 215 )
I presume 2500 is mamp-hr/cell and 11.6 amp-hr is the aggregate capacity of this 4P battery.
What is the 215 no.? and what significance does it have?
Let's assume he's figuring at least 750 life cycles out of his LG MG1 battery. If one cycle is 11.4Ah then 11.4Ah times 750 cycles equals a battery life totaling 8550Ah.

However, he figured the LG MG1 DIY build achieved only 2500Ah before p-group capacity variances were deemed unacceptable. So instead of achieving 8550Ah (750 cycles) only 2500Ah (219 cycles). 2500Ah ÷ 11.4Ah = 219 cycles, whereas 8550Ah ÷ 11.4Ah = 750 cycles. Realistically maybe only 500 cycles at most were possible with his DIY build.

If the homeland of that LG MJ1 battery was California :wink: instead of Sweden then 500 cycles (5700Ah) may have been possible depending on the BMS and/or any DIY build weakness and/or any suspect cells and/or any possible abuse. Abuse due to cold temps, other usage factors and any DIY fabrication weakness. As ebuilder implied in another post (paraphrased) ... "leave the building of a custom battery pack to a qualified expert already having all the best equipment, various materials, etc." :thumb:

The one factor he's not figuring is that a datasheet rating a cell at 1000 cycles is under ideal controlled conditions that are never realistic to actual usage conditions that more likely result in only 300 to 500 cycles of acceptable p-group capacity variance depending on othe.r usage variables.

Note: I'm half Swedish so no ill-intent with my California - Sweden comment. In fact it was because of my Swedish ancestry that i was able to figure out your query twice asked :wink: ...
ebuilder said:
What does this quotient mean? Can you ascribe units to your math...
(2500/ 11,6ah = 215 )"
 
I want to share my knowledge and experience as this is becoming rarer and rarer.

Thanks for your input guys. Very much appreciated.

I can build packs as well but I ain't an effective robot builder so not building too many right now. Only need to "build" basis at the moment when "situations" occurs. hehe

I didn't know it was an overstatement to get 1000 cycles but to anyone a very low number in comparisson really does rise your eyebrows that something is out of the ordinary and probably for the worse.

The thread about cells and cycle life really makes it easy to choose cells at least. It's nice to be an average joe about everything. I liked my lipos when I used them. Good life and power and now I like my Panasonic PFs but there are even better cells availale. Nice to know that. :D

MG1's won't be in my future builds. I would stretch to some small battery bank or flashlight if needed.

Cheers
 
leffex said:
I didn't know it was an overstatement to get 1000 cycles but to anyone a very low number in comparisson really does rise your eyebrows that something is out of the ordinary and probably for the worse.
IMR Batteries claimed LG M36 was capable of 1000 cycles. Here's M36T maximum discharge datasheet ...

  • Maximum Discharge Current ...
    -30 ~ -20℃ 0.2C = 670mA
    -20 ~ 5℃ 0.3C = 1,000mA
    5 ~ 45℃ 1.5C = 5,000mA (41°F - 113°F)
    45 ~ 60℃ 1.5C = 5,000mA

Battery suppliers differed on the MaxDisRate of the M36 cell. Some like NKON agree with the MaxContDis of 5.0A (1.5C) figuring C at 3334mA minimal Capacity. Other battery suppliers like queenbattery rated the MaxDisCurr of M36 at 10A. At one time Voltaplex rated the MCD of M36 at 5.6A, but no longer list it available as inventory stock. BATEMO (German supplier) lists M36 as 6.1A continuous and 12.3A peak ... https://www.batemo.de/products/batemo-cell-library/inr18650-m36/#get-data-popup

What becomes clear is that when M36 has a MCD rating of 5.0A or 5.6A it will have a longer cycle life than when used with a MCD rating of 10A. It should be obvious that a MCD rating of 5A will have a longer cycle life (1000 cycles?) than a MCD rating of 10A (500 cycles?). For example a 4p battery pullling 20amps continuously (5A rating) will have a longer cycle life (accumulated Amp hours) than a 4p M36 battery (10A rating) pulling 40amps continuously.

leffex said:
I didn't specify an exact number but to my knowledge brand cells last 1000 cycles and noname 500 cycles as a genral rule.
Some truth with controlled bench tests using precise equipment and defined parameters. Like in the Li-ion Cells Cycle Ageing thread ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=103092 . It's a comparison of cells performance using industry standards. That's all well and good, BUT there are just too many real-life variables to expect 1000 cycles from a M36 battery; especially when figuring and using an inflated MDR/MCD of 10A when the datasheet lists the MDC of LG M36 at 5.0A.

Really has one wondering how many 18650 manufacturers overrate their cells. When i say overrate they know darn well their best cells will never get anywhere close to even 500 cycles with raw performance riding the majority of time at the cells' MCD rating. Just like so many RC Lipo manufacturers that rate their energy dense Lipos at a MCD of 12C, 25C and even 50C. Then the owner complains that his expensive RC Lipo only lasted for 30 cycles.

Note: "comparisson" (that's the proper Swedish spelling :wink: )
 
My battery voltage is below 30 v and won’t charge. I have diagnosed that two of the 4 cell clusters are u/s as they cannot be jumped above 3v.
I plan to replace them by jumping the bms with a 36v lab power supply to maintain the handshake. I can then remove the pack and replace the faulty cells off line before replacing.
Does anyone know the threshold voltage at which the handshake is lost because I don’t want to go to all this trouble if the ‘flat’ battery has already lost the handshake. Thanks.
 
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