LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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MoonBassMan
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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by MoonBassMan » Dec 24, 2017 12:07 pm

Idea: What about a small LTO powerwall connected to a 110v wall plug. Charges the LTO pack slowly over time. When you need a faster charge, transfer the stored energy to your battery pack. Making a level 1 charge station behave more like a level 2 charge station (once every X hours for LTO recharge). Maybe LTOs wouldn't be necessary for this idea.
My build: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=84738
If I knew ES would remember account creation time, I would have waited 7 more minutes...

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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by dustNbone » Dec 25, 2017 9:41 am

If you have access to a breaker panel, obtaining 30 or 40A at 240V isn't that difficult. Also dryer plugs (30A) and/or stove plugs (40A) are usually available in a residence. You could make a "splitter" box with pigtails for input and two outputs that would allow you to keep the appliance connected to avoid swapping plugs all the time. If you happen to try to charge your bike and cook/dry clothes at the same time, you'd most likely pop the breaker but as long as you put the splitter together correctly (connections inside a metal box) I don't see any safety issues.

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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by SamRich » Jan 14, 2018 8:16 am

Update on balancing LTO.
I wired up and tested the 2.7V Cap balancing boards.

Image

The lights turn on when balancing the cells. It also created a bunch of heat which was a bit concerning.
Overall, it seemed to worked but not too happy about having to hook it up separately.
I found a BMS that is programmable and has balancing function so I will be using that one instead.

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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by SamRich » Jan 14, 2018 8:39 am

Received Bluetooth programmable BMS ordered from Aliexpress.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Smart-D ... 0.0.ZngtSW
I ordered the 100Amp model, can do 16-32S for any chemistry including LTO.
It took 2 weeks to arrive in the US.
I ordered the Display for an extra $18 just in case, but not sure I will use it since Bluetooth provides the same info.

You also need a separate ~12V power for the display which is a bit annoying, I'd hope it could run off the BMS directly.

So this BMS is much smaller than my previous BMS.
Image

Got it hooked up - man 30S is a lot of cells to connect - another downside of LTO - 50% more cells.

Image

Something that was not clear is that you need to connect B+ at both 30S (in my case since I was using 30S) and at the last pin B+ to power the BMS. Once I figured that out I was able to power the unit and connect to it via bluetooth.

Image

From there you can customize the parameters for LTO under param1

Image

under param2 you can see the battery status in real time!

Image

It provides the voltage of every cell as well as Min and Max voltages - highlighted in red and blue and displayed under Voltage 5 and 6. Voltage 7 is the average Voltage 8 is difference between min and max.

It quickly balanced all the cells to within 0.002V as set in the param1 option.
Voltage 2 and 4 displays charging and discharging current and power.
Overall very impressed with the features.
This is one smart BMS!

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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by Inwo » Jan 14, 2018 2:02 pm

Tell me about it.............................
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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by Inwo » Jan 14, 2018 2:20 pm

I'm quite sure the new displays will run from +100vdc. Check the specs.
Also you can order up to 300a as I did, or order less fets to save money.
It would be a steal used only for balance and BT monitor.

You are correct. The last pin powers bms, so as to use the full pack for power.
The bms will turn on with only B- and pin 34 connected.

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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by lwik » Jan 15, 2018 12:50 am

Sam, you have my full attention with your LTO build.

About a month ago I started a thread on using Supercaps to help save my Li-ion because they were doing to quick. But the end of that thread I was sold on LTO batteries. I have spoken with Inwo a little on the subject and see he has posted here too and is building his.

Here is what I am looking at as of today. I have been speaking with someone from osnpower.cn about batteries. First was considering the large 30AH cylinders but the weight was more then I wanted to replace my 2 52v 15AH Li-ion. Then I looked at replacing 1 of my batteries with a 16AH LTO when the customer service responded with spec sheet on a 20AH which was slightly lighter then the 16AH.

Battery https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 99835.html

I am almost ready to pull the trigger on these, last couple of days I have been researching on how to spot weld these. On eBay I did find these type of batteries with threaded connections but the price was $52!

For an LTO BMS and charger I was thinking of the Chargery 1500w
http://chargery.com/charger.asp I think I saw these chargers, BMS and display for $700

I am needing 21 LTO's to create a battery that is 58.8v max. That matches my other LI-ion battery and I have a solar panel I carry on my bike that charges to 58.8 volts.

Like you I wanted longer life and as important faster charging. I don't commute with my bike but I touring. The last 2 years I have almost 6K miles of touring and my life would be greatly enhanced with faster charging. Instead of 2h30m charging 2 52v 15AH batteries inboxed a restaurant I would like to just charge 1 20 AH LTO in 35 minutes.

So I am super excited to see how your build finishes up, testing of the unit and what your conclusion is.

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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by SamRich » Jan 16, 2018 3:45 pm

lwik wrote:
Jan 15, 2018 12:50 am
Sam, you have my full attention with your LTO build.

About a month ago I started a thread on using Supercaps to help save my Li-ion because they were doing to quick. But the end of that thread I was sold on LTO batteries. I have spoken with Inwo a little on the subject and see he has posted here too and is building his.

Here is what I am looking at as of today. I have been speaking with someone from osnpower.cn about batteries. First was considering the large 30AH cylinders but the weight was more then I wanted to replace my 2 52v 15AH Li-ion. Then I looked at replacing 1 of my batteries with a 16AH LTO when the customer service responded with spec sheet on a 20AH which was slightly lighter then the 16AH.

Battery https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 99835.html

I am almost ready to pull the trigger on these, last couple of days I have been researching on how to spot weld these. On eBay I did find these type of batteries with threaded connections but the price was $52!

For an LTO BMS and charger I was thinking of the Chargery 1500w
http://chargery.com/charger.asp I think I saw these chargers, BMS and display for $700

I am needing 21 LTO's to create a battery that is 58.8v max. That matches my other LI-ion battery and I have a solar panel I carry on my bike that charges to 58.8 volts.

Like you I wanted longer life and as important faster charging. I don't commute with my bike but I touring. The last 2 years I have almost 6K miles of touring and my life would be greatly enhanced with faster charging. Instead of 2h30m charging 2 52v 15AH batteries inboxed a restaurant I would like to just charge 1 20 AH LTO in 35 minutes.

So I am super excited to see how your build finishes up, testing of the unit and what your conclusion is.
Cool project - please post link to the thread if or whenever you have one. I'd be interested in following.

Those 20Ah cells seem very nice at 515g - that's not bad at all for LTO. Getting the threaded version would make your life so much easier - easy to build and replace cells - although keep in mind the hardware will add some significant weight with 21 connections.

Hopefully the price will come down a bit - that's why INWO's 11Ah @$9 LTO deal was too cheap not to give it a try.

BTW $700 for BMS and Charger seems a bit steep! - although I'm sure the quality is there.

The one I just bought cost $150 for BMS and display and seems to work well so far.

For fast charging you could probably build a 20A 58.8V charger with a few power supplies for less than $200.
Like two of these in parallel - which would also be modular based on need (i.e., 10 or 20A option)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-60V-DC-10A ... wxCxT5kZX
or three of these in parallel = 24A
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LM-YN-DC-0-60V ... Sw8-FaWzbY

That would be more than 1400W and about 50 min charge, that's probably the max you can reliably get from a restaurant outlet :)

But maybe someone out there on ES has used a 30A 58.8V ~1800W power supply from an 15A/120VAC outlet before - i'd be interested to here how that has worked out.

So two of these 24V PS in series, if grounds are isolated, would also get you there :)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-110V-220V-T ... q5l5lWNUMg - that's a 33A charger for $100!

Anyways now I need to wait for the snow to melt before I can test the new bike. Looks good on the stand - can't wait to test it out.

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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by SamRich » Jan 16, 2018 3:50 pm

MoonBassMan wrote:
Dec 24, 2017 12:07 pm
Idea: What about a small LTO powerwall connected to a 110v wall plug. Charges the LTO pack slowly over time. When you need a faster charge, transfer the stored energy to your battery pack. Making a level 1 charge station behave more like a level 2 charge station (once every X hours for LTO recharge). Maybe LTOs wouldn't be necessary for this idea.
I think you'd need some high current DC-DC step up converter,but that could work - although the price would be probably be prohibitive.

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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by SamRich » Jan 16, 2018 3:51 pm

Inwo wrote:
Jan 14, 2018 2:02 pm
Tell me about it.............................

MVC-002F.JPGMVC-001F.JPG
yup

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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by Inwo » Jan 16, 2018 9:49 pm

SamRich wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 3:51 pm
Inwo wrote:
Jan 14, 2018 2:02 pm
Tell me about it.............................

MVC-002F.JPGMVC-001F.JPG
yup
Mine was such a mess compared to yours, I cut them all off to try again.😣

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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by lwik » Jan 17, 2018 2:30 am

SamRich wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 3:45 pm

Hopefully the price will come down a bit - that's why INWO's 11Ah @$9 LTO deal was too cheap not to give it a try.
I have spoken with INWO before and he also messaged me about them, it is a good deal. It would result in a 22AH instead of 20AH for the voltage I need, the extra 2AH adds 5 more pounds though. Next month when I have time to start the build I will probably get everything from him. But if those 20AH threaded batteries were a much better deal I probably would go that route to save the 5 extra pounds and ease of assembly. But for my first battery build this sounds like the best deal incase I screw things up.

Thanks for the ideas on cheaper chargers. The Chargery system is a complete system and will charge at 1500w which I hope translates in to a 45-60 minute dead to full charge. Would love, if possible while touring, to be able to tap in to all the EV charging stations. 240V 16AH that would be a 20 minute charge I'm guessing. I am sure that the batteries can handle that high charge rate but finding a charger that can handle that amount of power that is light would be difficult.

One my cross country bike trip one of my Li-Ion batteries BMS shut the battery down at 42.5v as I crossed the Texas state line. By the time I hit Florida at the end of my trip the BMS was shutting off the battery at 49v. Because of those problems I want a BMS with LCD set up so I can see what is happening with the battery and balancing. Currently if there is a problem I have no clue until the battery is showing signs of failure. I spent $1K on that 52V 15AH and got about 250-300 charges on it. That is a huge waste of money which I hope LTO's will solve.

Hope that snow melts soon and you can get some data to report!

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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by SamRich » Jan 17, 2018 8:27 am

lwik wrote:
Jan 17, 2018 2:30 am
SamRich wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 3:45 pm

Hopefully the price will come down a bit - that's why INWO's 11Ah @$9 LTO deal was too cheap not to give it a try.
One my cross country bike trip one of my Li-Ion batteries BMS shut the battery down at 42.5v as I crossed the Texas state line. By the time I hit Florida at the end of my trip the BMS was shutting off the battery at 49v. Because of those problems I want a BMS with LCD set up so I can see what is happening with the battery and balancing.
Either that or bluetooth if you travel with a smart phone - might provide a more compact solution for touring.

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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by Inwo » Jan 17, 2018 9:58 am

Yes, that BT bms is great. I have a 32s connected to my 32s jump pack.
Also have some 24s 100a versions.
I've been running the 24s 300a in my Gem truck for a couple years. 22s 110ah Volt.
The display backlight is flakey. Other than that, fine.

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Re: LTO Lithium Titanium Oxide (Titanate) Battery 30S - Seeking the Ultimate Commuter Battery

Post by SamRich » Jan 17, 2018 12:25 pm

lwik wrote:
Jan 17, 2018 2:30 am
SamRich wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 3:45 pm

Hopefully the price will come down a bit - that's why INWO's 11Ah @$9 LTO deal was too cheap not to give it a try.
I have spoken with INWO before and he also messaged me about them, it is a good deal. It would result in a 22AH instead of 20AH for the voltage I need, the extra 2AH adds 5 more pounds though. Next month when I have time to start the build I will probably get everything from him. But if those 20AH threaded batteries were a much better deal I probably would go that route to save the 5 extra pounds and ease of assembly. But for my first battery build this sounds like the best deal incase I screw things up.

Thanks for the ideas on cheaper chargers. The Chargery system is a complete system and will charge at 1500w which I hope translates in to a 45-60 minute dead to full charge. Would love, if possible while touring, to be able to tap in to all the EV charging stations. 240V 16AH that would be a 20 minute charge I'm guessing. I am sure that the batteries can handle that high charge rate but finding a charger that can handle that amount of power that is light would be difficult.

One my cross country bike trip one of my Li-Ion batteries BMS shut the battery down at 42.5v as I crossed the Texas state line. By the time I hit Florida at the end of my trip the BMS was shutting off the battery at 49v. Because of those problems I want a BMS with LCD set up so I can see what is happening with the battery and balancing. Currently if there is a problem I have no clue until the battery is showing signs of failure. I spent $1K on that 52V 15AH and got about 250-300 charges on it. That is a huge waste of money which I hope LTO's will solve.

Hope that snow melts soon and you can get some data to report!
Hi Iwik,
Searched for your thread (posted this response on there too)

It's a very interesting thread to me since not many do touring on ebikes and the trade offs are different than for a trail and commuting bike. I used to do a bunch of touring (before the kiddo) and I have thought of how I would maybe do it on an ebike. I had this idea to ride around lake Ontario in 3 days - 200 miles a day! I looked at tradeoffs between battery weight/ time charging during stops/average speed / and overall time on the saddle. I wish I could find that table to share it (I will if I find it) In the end I think 52V and 30Ah with a 15A charger seemed like a decent solution...Anyway I kinda gave up on the idea when I thought about being on the saddle for so many hours (and mind you I've done a few centuries).

Point is, not sure if LTO is the solution for your touring application. LiFe might be a better solution -some models have a few 1000 charge capacity and so it would be cost effective. In my comparison chart I omitted LiFe but with a back of the envelope calculation it should be nearly as cost effective as LTO but not nearly as heavy.

The reason I chose LTO is because I have a fixed /short commute that I do 250 days a year and also wanted high power. If I needed longer range I would go with either LiFe or 18650 as other have suggested. It sounds like you payed a lot for a somewhat average quality battery pack - so I understand the frustration, however a properly built pack with a quality BMS should give you a much longer battery life than what you experienced.

With a 20-40 lbs budget you could have up to 3kWh battery that you could charge at 1500W with a high current power supply. You are pretty much limited by the outlet which will provide maximum 1.5kWh per hour independent of chemistry. So you could charge every time you stop while still having some spare energy in case you need it whereas with LTO you'd likely already run out of energy for the same weight.

my two cents :)

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