35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
Post Reply
ldmvcd
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 01, 2018 8:18 pm
Location: Gothenburg

35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by ldmvcd » Jan 01, 2018 8:27 pm

Hello,

I've purchased a BMS rated at 35A 10S from ebay but the pack I am building is with Panasonic NCR18650PF 2900mAh - 10A batteries, 10S and 4P. Since the discharge of each battery is rated at 10A, I'm assuming that it will total 40A since there will be 4 in parallel? Do I have the math right?

Or do I need to get a BMS that is rated for 40A and above?

This is what I have purchased https://www.ebay.com/itm/10S-36V-Batter ... 2749.l2649

Is this what I should get? https://www.ebay.com/itm/BMS-PCB-for-36 ... SwiBJaBCVZ

Thanks!

ldmvcd
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 01, 2018 8:18 pm
Location: Gothenburg

How to calc Amps for a batterypack

Post by ldmvcd » Jan 01, 2018 8:30 pm

Hello,

I'm still trying to understand battery packs and I was wondering what is the Amp for a 10S4P battery pack built with Panasonic NCR18650PF 2900mAh - 10A batteries? 40A since there are 4 in parallel?

Thanks :)

User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 25068
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by amberwolf » Jan 01, 2018 9:00 pm

Your BMS needs to be rated to supply the maximum current your controller/motor system can draw from the battery at the maximum load it will see. If it is not rated high enough, it will shutdown it's output (or blow it's fuse or FETs, depending on design) if you exceed the max current long enough (how long depends on it's design).

Your cells then have to be rated to supply at least as much as the BMS is able to supply and the controller/motor system will draw. If they are not rated high enough, voltage sag (and internal heating) will be excessive, potentially damaging the cells. The closer you run the cells to their maximum ratings, the harder it is on them, and the shorter life they will have, with worse performance.

ldmvcd
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 01, 2018 8:18 pm
Location: Gothenburg

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by ldmvcd » Jan 01, 2018 9:08 pm

amberwolf wrote:
Jan 01, 2018 9:00 pm
Your BMS needs to be rated to supply the maximum current your controller/motor system can draw from the battery at the maximum load it will see. If it is not rated high enough, it will shutdown it's output (or blow it's fuse or FETs, depending on design) if you exceed the max current long enough (how long depends on it's design).

Your cells then have to be rated to supply at least as much as the BMS is able to supply and the controller/motor system will draw. If they are not rated high enough, voltage sag (and internal heating) will be excessive, potentially damaging the cells. The closer you run the cells to their maximum ratings, the harder it is on them, and the shorter life they will have, with worse performance.
Thanks for the reply, the controller will likely be a 36v 17A and the motor a 36V350W geared front hub motor. From what I understand from your post, the BMS I have should be ok since the controller will never attempt to draw more than 17A anyway? And am I putting too much money in the cells with 10A discharge then and could instead get away with cheaper cells with 5-6A discharge?

I have not purchased the controller and motor yet.

ldmvcd
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 01, 2018 8:18 pm
Location: Gothenburg

Re: How to calc Amps for a batterypack

Post by ldmvcd » Jan 01, 2018 9:11 pm

ldmvcd wrote:
Jan 01, 2018 8:30 pm
Hello,

I'm still trying to understand battery packs and I was wondering what is the Amp for a 10S4P battery pack built with Panasonic NCR18650PF 2900mAh - 10A batteries? 40A since there are 4 in parallel?

Thanks :)
Instead of a separate post I ended up posting this as a comment :D Please ignore this

ldmvcd
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 01, 2018 8:18 pm
Location: Gothenburg

How to calc Amps for a batterypack

Post by ldmvcd » Jan 01, 2018 9:12 pm

Hello,

I'm still trying to understand battery packs and I was wondering what is the Amp for a 10S4P battery pack built with Panasonic NCR18650PF 2900mAh - 10A batteries? 40A since there are 4 in parallel?

Thanks :)

User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 25068
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by amberwolf » Jan 01, 2018 9:15 pm

Since that question is basically teh same as what you already asked in teh first post, the moderators probably merged the two threads, to keep all the info in one place for you and for people helping you to see all the answers eveyrone gives you, so as not to waste time and resources.


As far as using lesser cells, remember that you get what you pay for, so the cheaper cells will then be pushed harder, and will last less time, and perform worse.

The battery pack is the heart of the system, where all the power comes from--if it can't handle the load, or ages prematurely, the whole system performs worse.

It's a balancing act--generally cells with lower C-rate (lower Amps output max) will have higher capacity (Amp Hour), and vice-versa, all other things being the same. So if you need more capacity for more range, you can get lower-rate cells and stay with teh same total number of cells, but the pack won't perform as well the closer it is pushed to it's limits.


A good battery is worth spending more money on--it's easy to go cheap on the motor and controller and still get adequate performance, but cheaping out on the battery doesn't have the same results.

So...you *could* use lesser cells--the pack just won't be as good or last as long.

User avatar
amberwolf
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 25068
Joined: Aug 17, 2009 6:43 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: How to calc Amps for a batterypack

Post by amberwolf » Jan 01, 2018 9:26 pm

ldmvcd wrote:
Jan 01, 2018 9:11 pm
I'm still trying to understand battery packs and I was wondering what is the Amp for a 10S4P battery pack built with Panasonic NCR18650PF 2900mAh - 10A batteries? 40A since there are 4 in parallel?
Basically, yes. It's a question that's been answered a lot (and even asked already by you in your first post), so it doesn't need it's own thread.

If you look around the forums, there are dozens of threads about 18650 cells and packs, which will have all the info for stuff like that, including how to choose cells for your usage, avoiding fake cells and crap cells, building the pack (there are many ways), etc.

Mostly a search for
18650
in the title of threads and displaying by topic will find many of them. Searching the first post rather than the title might be necessary to find some. Other terms like
build*
batter*
will find others.

There's probably also some links in the Sticky Index thread at the top of this forum.

Yes, it is a LOT of reading--but it will definitely help you build a better battery pack. ;)

ldmvcd
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 01, 2018 8:18 pm
Location: Gothenburg

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by ldmvcd » Jan 01, 2018 9:34 pm

amberwolf wrote:
Jan 01, 2018 9:15 pm
Since that question is basically teh same as what you already asked in teh first post, the moderators probably merged the two threads, to keep all the info in one place for you and for people helping you to see all the answers eveyrone gives you, so as not to waste time and resources.

Makes sense :)

As far as using lesser cells, remember that you get what you pay for, so the cheaper cells will then be pushed harder, and will last less time, and perform worse.

The battery pack is the heart of the system, where all the power comes from--if it can't handle the load, or ages prematurely, the whole system performs worse.

It's a balancing act--generally cells with lower C-rate (lower Amps output max) will have higher capacity (Amp Hour), and vice-versa, all other things being the same. So if you need more capacity for more range, you can get lower-rate cells and stay with teh same total number of cells, but the pack won't perform as well the closer it is pushed to it's limits.


A good battery is worth spending more money on--it's easy to go cheap on the motor and controller and still get adequate performance, but cheaping out on the battery doesn't have the same results.

So...you *could* use lesser cells--the pack just won't be as good or last as long.
I don't mean to 'cheap out', rather I'm looking for an optimal combination of controller, motor, BMS and battery. I had narrowed down the battery to the Panasonic NCR18650PF 2900mAh 10A but if the Controller/Motor won't be close to utilizing its potential then I didn't see a point in having an expensive set of batteries.

I also may have missed the answer somewhere, but considering that I intend to get a 36v17A controller and a 36v350w front hub motor, would the 35A BMS suffice and without any adverse effects on a battery pack putting out 40A? Thanks!

ldmvcd
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 01, 2018 8:18 pm
Location: Gothenburg

Re: How to calc Amps for a batterypack

Post by ldmvcd » Jan 01, 2018 9:38 pm

amberwolf wrote:
Jan 01, 2018 9:26 pm
ldmvcd wrote:
Jan 01, 2018 9:11 pm
I'm still trying to understand battery packs and I was wondering what is the Amp for a 10S4P battery pack built with Panasonic NCR18650PF 2900mAh - 10A batteries? 40A since there are 4 in parallel?
Basically, yes. It's a question that's been answered a lot (and even asked already by you in your first post), so it doesn't need it's own thread.

If you look around the forums, there are dozens of threads about 18650 cells and packs, which will have all the info for stuff like that, including how to choose cells for your usage, avoiding fake cells and crap cells, building the pack (there are many ways), etc.

Mostly a search for
18650
in the title of threads and displaying by topic will find many of them. Searching the first post rather than the title might be necessary to find some. Other terms like
build*
batter*
will find others.

There's probably also some links in the Sticky Index thread at the top of this forum.

Yes, it is a LOT of reading--but it will definitely help you build a better battery pack. ;)
No doubt there is a lot of information and a lot I've learned already considering I knew pretty much nothing about batteries and such. Especially when it comes to avoid fake crap batteries, the right cells for my usage, etc. However it can get confusing and overwhelming for a newbie when presented with such a vast amount of information and to avoid that confusion it sometimes is easier to post a direct question and be sure about the answer rather than reading a lot and still being unsure since the exact question might not have been asked :)

999zip999
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 8361
Joined: Jan 10, 2010 1:40 pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by 999zip999 » Jan 01, 2018 10:58 pm

So 10s 4p or 40 max with 10 amp cells ( use 10amp cells at 6amp max. So a 30 amp or lower bms would work. If you could run at 10 miles an hour 410 miles why would I ask you to run at 15 miles an hour for 10 miles. The battery will melt and you would melt. But as said before is the controller that demands the amp draw from the battery the battery is as dumb as can be. So look at your controller first. A bms doesn't mean the battery has a brain. Do Not puff it or come to California.

Joachim
100 W
100 W
Posts: 257
Joined: Jul 30, 2015 1:02 pm

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by Joachim » Jan 02, 2018 6:31 am

4p lower 5A cells.....max discharge for the battery 20Amp,ooh sh#t the bms 35A :roll: i dont like these kind of batterie builds!
After a year this pack hits the second hand market and someone thinks hey a nice cheap battery 35A bms and put the battery on a bike with a 30A controller :mrgreen: yes the batteries wurks and no cut-off from the bms heeey :oops:

User avatar
dogman dan
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 34682
Joined: May 17, 2008 12:53 pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by dogman dan » Jan 02, 2018 9:08 am

There is a definite point in getting the better rated batteries.

RE battery amps ratings, its always a good plan to de rate that spec by 50%. Why? The battery can handle 10 amps in a test right?

Sure, it can.. But I assure you it does not like it. Call the max 5 amps, and your battery may last longer, and for sure it will perform better the whole time. It will sag less under a 5 amps load than a 10, and it will stay balanced better if you also don't discharge too deep. Less sag under load means you won't reach shutoff voltage prematurely, and you can ride farther. Under 17 amps continuous, your cheap pack will never put out the full capacity, because of losing so much voltage under load. I mean a big drop, like start with 50v, and drop to 44 or 42 under load. That's getting close to shutoff, and the pack is 100% full.

This does not mean you need a 20 amps bms, your 35 amps plan is fine. Its ok with that bike, because your controller is less than 20-25 amps max. Your bms wont shut you off premature, and your controller won't stress the cells too much.

You got it just right, but if you feel the need for just a bit more power, you can go with a 22 amps controller and be ok.

ldmvcd
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 01, 2018 8:18 pm
Location: Gothenburg

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by ldmvcd » Jan 02, 2018 10:17 am

Joachim wrote:
Jan 02, 2018 6:31 am
4p lower 5A cells.....max discharge for the battery 20Amp,ooh sh#t the bms 35A :roll: i dont like these kind of batterie builds!
Joakim do you have tips on how this build could be improved?

ldmvcd
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 01, 2018 8:18 pm
Location: Gothenburg

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by ldmvcd » Jan 02, 2018 10:21 am

999zip999 wrote:
Jan 01, 2018 10:58 pm
So 10s 4p or 40 max with 10 amp cells ( use 10amp cells at 6amp max. So a 30 amp or lower bms would work. If you could run at 10 miles an hour 410 miles why would I ask you to run at 15 miles an hour for 10 miles. The battery will melt and you would melt. But as said before is the controller that demands the amp draw from the battery the battery is as dumb as can be. So look at your controller first. A bms doesn't mean the battery has a brain. Do Not puff it or come to California.
Thanks :)

ldmvcd
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 01, 2018 8:18 pm
Location: Gothenburg

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by ldmvcd » Jan 02, 2018 10:28 am

dogman dan wrote:
Jan 02, 2018 9:08 am
This does not mean you need a 20 amps bms, your 35 amps plan is fine. Its ok with that bike, because your controller is less than 20-25 amps max. Your bms wont shut you off premature, and your controller won't stress the cells too much.
Thanks for making this clearer for me Dan. Would it be prudent to always assume that the rated Amp capacity of the battery pack should be around twice the Amps of the controller (for builds in general)?
dogman dan wrote:
Jan 02, 2018 9:08 am
Under 17 amps continuous, your cheap pack will never put out the full capacity, because of losing so much voltage under load. I mean a big drop, like start with 50v, and drop to 44 or 42 under load. That's getting close to shutoff, and the pack is 100% full.
Do you mean 'cheap build' for the battery pack I currently will have or the one I will have if I were to downgrade them to cells putting out 5-6 Amps?

Can you explain why the big drop would get close to shutoff?

Thanks :)

Joachim
100 W
100 W
Posts: 257
Joined: Jul 30, 2015 1:02 pm

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by Joachim » Jan 02, 2018 12:57 pm

Just take the 10s 4p panasonic pf please and use the 35A bms....save for the cells/compleet pack and twice the rating of the controller amps.You can get a panasonic pf cell for 2.60Euro so 40 cells like 104Euro.I think this is cheap for these good cells.

Lower 5 6A cells have more stress and higher internal resistance so the cell wil be warm/hot and you loos energy in heating....voltage wil drop under max load and the compleet pack wil have more stress so@ the end cheap will be expensieve :wink:

[text deleted by moderator]

ldmvcd
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 01, 2018 8:18 pm
Location: Gothenburg

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by ldmvcd » Jan 02, 2018 3:53 pm

Joachim wrote:
Jan 02, 2018 12:57 pm
Just take the 10s 4p panasonic pf please and use the 35A bms....save for the cells/compleet pack and twice the rating of the controller amps.You can get a panasonic pf cell for 2.60Euro so 40 cells like 104Euro.I think this is cheap for these good cells.

Lower 5 6A cells have more stress and higher internal resistance so the cell wil be warm/hot and you loos energy in heating....voltage wil drop under max load and the compleet pack wil have more stress so@ the end cheap will be expensieve :wink:

[text deleted by moderator]
Thanks! Do you know where I can get them for 2.6Euro each? A lot of cheaper sources I checked didn't ship to Europe/Sweden.

Joachim
100 W
100 W
Posts: 257
Joined: Jul 30, 2015 1:02 pm

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by Joachim » Jan 02, 2018 3:58 pm

www.nkon.nl they have fresh PF cells in stock.40x for 110Euro...so 2.75 for a cell.
Also look for the positieve terminal protection papers and nickel strip...if you needs these,self welding the pack?

ldmvcd
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 01, 2018 8:18 pm
Location: Gothenburg

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by ldmvcd » Jan 02, 2018 5:22 pm

Joachim wrote:
Jan 02, 2018 3:58 pm
www.nkon.nl they have fresh PF cells in stock.40x for 110Euro...so 2.75 for a cell.
Also look for the positieve terminal protection papers and nickel strip...if you needs these,self welding the pack?
Self welding yes. You mean these https://eu.nkon.nl/accessories/welding- ... 18650.html?

999zip999
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 8361
Joined: Jan 10, 2010 1:40 pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by 999zip999 » Jan 04, 2018 6:55 pm

Those are the ones. So very important. Do you have a spot welder ? I meant is how you use the pack. Peddle first and on hills. It is still a bike . What controller and motor.

ldmvcd
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 15
Joined: Jan 01, 2018 8:18 pm
Location: Gothenburg

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by ldmvcd » Jan 06, 2018 9:17 am

999zip999 wrote:
Jan 04, 2018 6:55 pm
Those are the ones. So very important. Do you have a spot welder ? I meant is how you use the pack. Peddle first and on hills. It is still a bike . What controller and motor.
I don't have a spot welder myself but a friend of mine has built his own so I plan to use that. I will also peddle all of the time. I live in a hilly area so it would be nice to have some electric help :)

It will be a 17-22 Amp controller depending on the kit I buy and the motor will be a 350w front hub motor

999zip999
100 GW
100 GW
Posts: 8361
Joined: Jan 10, 2010 1:40 pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: 35A BMS for a 10S4P 2900mAh-10A battery?

Post by 999zip999 » Jan 06, 2018 4:53 pm

Yes your battery will be happy with that setup

Post Reply