Will 60V work on my e-Bike

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Oct 18, 2017
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I have a geared Mac Hub Motor: 1500 watts (12fet infinion controller). I have a 48v 26.1AH Panasonic Lithium Battery from LA-Ebikes. It propels me on my bike about 32mph top. Based on my Cycle Analyst the bike will hit about 2200 watts. I have run 125 miles on the bike since buying all that stuff new in October. I am wondering if I could upgrade to 60V and get appx. 5mph more out of the bike. Would I have to replace any other components (controller /motor)?

And a crazy question:: Could I buy a 12v 26ah lithium battery and connect it in with my current battery to get it up to 60v?
 
What's your controller rated for ? Voltage , amps ? So these is the mac v5 1500.? How do you like it ? What turn is the motor high speed or torque?
 
Great suggestion. I think my controller goes up to 52v and 40 amps. If i get a controller that will handle higher amps will i get more speed? (obviously losing some range)??
I find most of my trips are 1-5 miles. My current range is 25 miles. I would be willing to sacrifice a bit of that for some additional speed.
If upgrading my controller is a solution to a bit more speed, does anyone have a recommendation that would be an easy swap for the current infineon 12fet to a mac motor??
 
It could be your existing controller is maxed out on power at top speed as the wind resistance will be a lot. Increasing the current limit on the existing setup might get you more top speed. You could also consider a new controller that has a 'field weakening' feature that will spin the motor faster for the same voltage but draws more current. 2200W is a lot for that motor. You are near the limit of where the motor might overheat and fail.

Most 48v or 52v controllers have parts that are rated for 63v or so. A 52v Li-ion battery hot off the charger will be 58.8V, so you don't have much headroom as it is. You could add a battery in series with the existing one, but it creates a bunch of potential problems.
 
I would love to find a controller that spins the motor faster. Any recommendations? Sounds like @Fechter you know your stuff. I am looking for a 3-5mph increase in speed for those occasions when I need to keep up with traffic in tighter street zones.
 
999zip999 said:
What's your controller rated for ? Voltage , amps ? So these is the mac v5 1500.? How do you like it ? What turn is the motor high speed or torque?
I do like the motor. The 125miles have been really good and responsive. It is quiet and seems strong. I have it on a moped and i weigh 150pounds so it is strong to take me 30MPH and all that weight too. But I would love to go 35mph. That would be awesome.
 
changeissimple said:
I have it on a moped and i weigh 150pounds so it is strong to take me 30MPH and all that weight too. But I would love to go 35mph.

The difference between a well built bicycle and a moped is more or less the speed difference you're talking about.

You might be able to buy the extra speed with clubman bars, a faired tailbox, or another simple aero aid.
 
Chalo said:
changeissimple said:
I have it on a moped and i weigh 150pounds so it is strong to take me 30MPH and all that weight too. But I would love to go 35mph.

The difference between a well built bicycle and a moped is more or less the speed difference you're talking about.

You might be able to buy the extra speed with clubman bars, a faired tailbox, or another simple aero aid.

I have really low bars on it and I did a lot to narrow it up during the winter months in the basement. I think if I can tweak the controller I might get some more juice. My Battery is a really nice panasonic lithium battery, I think it can throw out more amps for a short period and get me a bit more speed for the instances that I need it. I can also buy a new motor if needed. I was thinking of a 3000watt - there are some for $200 range on aliexpress. But first I'd like to try the controller upgrade.
 
Hmm. Well, you want to keep the fully charged voltage under a measured 60V, to keep the capacitors from popping. That means 52V nominal (14S lithium cobalt) is about as good as you'll get.

Do you know what the free speed of your motor is? (How fast will the wheel go when it's not on the ground?). If it's anything above 45mph, you may be able to raise the top speed by using more current. If it's very much above 45mph, you'll definitely go faster with more current.
 
Chalo said:
Hmm. Well, you want to keep the fully charged voltage under a measured 60V, to keep the capacitors from popping. That means 52V nominal (14S lithium cobalt) is about as good as you'll get.

Do you know what the free speed of your motor is? (How fast will the wheel go when it's not on the ground?). If it's anything above 45mph, you may be able to raise the top speed by using more current. If it's very much above 45mph, you'll definitely go faster with more current.

I don't know the free speed of the motor. My speed is measured off a magnet sensor on the front wheel through the CA.
 
You say you have an 12fet infinion controller. I have a 12fet infinion controller 40A and i can program it up to 100v battery voltage. I am running lipo 55.5v when charged its reading 62.4v and top speed without peddling is 40mph on flat ground (with my weight). Can you not program yours? More amps will give you more pulling power, you will hit the top speed faster, to get more top speed you need a higher volt battery for example 48v will have lower top speed then a 60v battery pack, you just need to make sure your battery can pull out the amps the controller is rated for.

I would be careful putting more then what you have now in to your motor because your motor is geared you risk damaging the gears real quick. My personal recommendation would be a hub motor.
 
mybike said:
You say you have an 12fet infinion controller. I have a 12fet infinion controller 40A and i can program it up to 100v battery voltage. I am running lipo 55.5v when charged its reading 62.4v and top speed without peddling is 40mph on flat ground (with my weight). Can you not program yours? More amps will give you more pulling power, you will hit the top speed faster, to get more top speed you need a higher volt battery for example 48v will have lower top speed then a 60v battery pack, you just need to make sure your battery can pull out the amps the controller is rated for.

I would be careful putting more then what you have now in to your motor because your motor is geared you risk damaging the gears real quick. My personal recommendation would be a hub motor.

I do not know how to program the controller. I got into e-bikes less than 1 year ago. I have done A LOT of researcher on products and set ups but I haven't gotten into the computer programming side of things yet. When I decided to do it, I went in with a budget, bought the 1500w MAC because it was on the exact rim I needed to fit the bike. And spent the bulk of the $$ on the 48v 26.1ah panasonic lithium. Now I am wanting a bit more power.
I think I built a good looking, effective bike. I am having a lot of fun and using it as a great way to get to work and run errands around town. Take a look here:: http://www.changeissimple.org/patricks-projects . I am just wishing I could get it a few MPH faster.
What is the most cost effective way to get that extra speed??
Replace the battery with high voltage? But it seems like that would blow the motor. Correct?
Or
Replace the motor and controller? Draw more than 40amps from the battery and send more than 2000 watts to a new hub that can handle more power?
or
Both? Repower the whole bike?

I would love and appreciate your thoughts...

IMG_6098+%281%29.JPG
 
You might want to check out the motor simulator:

http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

It seems like you could maybe get 5mph more out of your setup without smoking the motor, but you will be pushing the limits.

The least expensive thing to try would be to get the programming cable for the controller and see if you can increase the current limit. It may be already programmed to the max setting though. Even cheaper would be to find somebody close that has one you could borrow.

From there, I would try a new controller. I have an early version of one of these:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=81020

I really like it. I have a different motor, but I can push over 2kW and get over 35mph on my A2B. These are rated for higher voltage too, so if you decide to up the voltage later, it will handle it. These have field weakening, so can make the motor go faster with the same voltage. Being able to program with a cell phone is handy too but mine is the older version that uses a laptop.
 
fechter said:
You might want to check out the motor simulator:

http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

It seems like you could maybe get 5mph more out of your setup without smoking the motor, but you will be pushing the limits.

The least expensive thing to try would be to get the programming cable for the controller and see if you can increase the current limit. It may be already programmed to the max setting though. Even cheaper would be to find somebody close that has one you could borrow.

From there, I would try a new controller. I have an early version of one of these:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=81020

I really like it. I have a different motor, but I can push over 2kW and get over 35mph on my A2B. These are rated for higher voltage too, so if you decide to up the voltage later, it will handle it. These have field weakening, so can make the motor go faster with the same voltage. Being able to program with a cell phone is handy too but mine is the older version that uses a laptop.

How many watts is the motor on your A2B. I know mine is a geared motor so it could shred it but I am sort of willing to risk that. As replacing the motor isn't that big of a deal.

Is this the program cable i need? Do I hook it up to a PC or Mac and then increase the current limit? https://fasterbikes.eu/en/controller/151-usb-programming-cable-for-infineon-external-controllerscontroller.html

When you shared that controller link above I don't seem to be able to get to the purchase page. Also, would I be able to use my current throttle, CA, and connect direct to the MAC motor?
 
I have sort of a similar project I want to undertake, sitting on a couple old Honda Cub 50's and want to convert one. Not as nice as OP's bike but will be fun. I'm considering trying a QS-205 with a 72v battery paired with appropriate controller. Something I'll have to save up for though because I have a couple other projects going right now too. Thinking that setup would push the bike along at 35mph nicely and not tax the motor even with a slow wind motor so I have some hill climbing ability. I need to put the info in the motor simulator and see what it says.
 
changeissimple said:
How many watts is the motor on your A2B. I know mine is a geared motor so it could shred it but I am sort of willing to risk that. As replacing the motor isn't that big of a deal.

Is this the program cable i need? Do I hook it up to a PC or Mac and then increase the current limit? https://fasterbikes.eu/en/controller/151-usb-programming-cable-for-infineon-external-controllerscontroller.html

When you shared that controller link above I don't seem to be able to get to the purchase page. Also, would I be able to use my current throttle, CA, and connect direct to the MAC motor?

According to A2B, the motor is rated for 500W. It's a direct drive hub motor. A little ferrofluid and it handles 2kW fine.

Yes, the programming cable looks like the right one. There are some topics on the forum about programming. It's been a long time since I messed with one of those. Lyen is a good resource for programming. The other approach is to modify the shunt in the controller and not bother with the programming.

Not sure what's up with the link for Powervelocity. Again:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=81020

On page one, prices are listed. You can PM him for more information. There are many other possible controllers that might work, but his have a good track record and aren't stupidly expensive.
 
That bike would love a muxus 3,000 D.D. 4t motor at 5,000 watts. I have it with a 18fet powervelicity controller at 80v charged and 80amps still only goes 43mph. but 36mph up mild hills. so it takes a lot to get over 35mph. I have an old bmc 600 H.S. geared motor and it was max at 62v charged and 40 amp lyen controller 2,400 watts. Meaning long hills will heat it up get the phase wires very hot melting the outer black plastic. still working. You could use a muxus 3,000 3t high speed and run at 48v with high amps so different controller too. Now can your battery support 100amps ? That,s a great motor you have there, better suited for a mtb. That setup begs for a D.D. motor with regen for brakes. With a blue tooth controller you can dail in the amps and regen by phone.
 
999zip999 said:
That bike would love a muxus 3,000 D.D. 4t motor at 5,000 watts. I have it with a 18fet powervelicity controller at 80v charged and 80amps still only goes 43mph. but 36mph up mild hills. so it takes a lot to get over 35mph. I have an old bmc 600 H.S. geared motor and it was max at 62v charged and 40 amp lyen controller 2,400 watts. Meaning long hills will heat it up get the phase wires very hot melting the outer black plastic. still working. You could use a muxus 3,000 3t high speed and run at 48v with high amps so different controller too. Now can your battery support 100amps ? That,s a great motor you have there, better suited for a mtb. That setup begs for a D.D. motor with regen for brakes. With a blue tooth controller you can dail in the amps and regen by phone.
Who sells that muxus 3000 and controller? Any links??
 
Alan B said:
A geared hubmotor with a heavy load and more than 1500W is likely to live a short life. Be prepared.

Alan, do you mean it will have a short life with 60v? Or as I currently have it set up on a 48v 40amps?
 
Over power the Mac, its easy to fry a motor. Its rated 500w, so give it more than 1500w, it can overheat in 15 min if you put enough load on it. A motor with much more copper weight, and big ass magnets will blow away the mac for time to melt under extreme load and power.

As others suggest, I agree its time to just go with a larger, heavier, DD motor with enough magnet and copper weight to go way past 2000w. The motor could be the muxus, or the larger crystalytes, whatever. It just needs wide magnets, like 35 mm vs 28 mm for the smaller 500w rated dd motors. ( you can though, run those 500w dd motors harder than your 500w rated Mac, because they can cool off faster, and they have more copper)

Then your limits are far beyond 35 mph, in terms of worrying about motor overheating. 60v ballpark will do great for 35 mph cruise. 18 cells in series would be a good choice. That charges to 75.6v, wich would blow your current controller.

One thing to bear in mind, the more amps you have on the new controller, the quicker you can kill a less expensive battery. But you can get plenty of power at 30 amps with 18s. Don't get sucked into a 60 amps controller unless you are ready to fork out serious cash for high performance batteries. Best possible approach, is get a Cycle Analyst compatible controller, so you can use the CA to set your own personal amp limit.
 
Gearmotors wear out clutches and gears, and overheat easily due to the path for heat conduction out of the motor. They often come from the factory with sub-optimal lubrication type and/or quantities.

Sudden application of power and especially high motor temperature can damage them faster. A hot motor can fail in just a few minutes, the gears generally fail first. I don't know if you are monitoring motor temperature, but that is a good thing to do. That is perhaps the best indicator of danger.

It is hard to put a specific value on the power handling capacity of these motors. Finding consensus is difficult - there are many differing experiences here on ES. 1500W seems to work fairly well, perhaps a long time on a bicycle. 2000-2500W works but often fails, again on a bicycle. Putting one of these gearmotors on a heavier moped, and pushing it above 1500W is not likely to produce good motor life.

So you are already pushing it hard, and you are planning to push it harder. I can't predict when it will fail, but I would move ahead on the 3kW DD motor, it is better suited to your machine. You can look at my Borg (link in my sig) build to see something similar that I have used for many thousands of commute miles with excellent reliability.

I try to keep my full size gearmotors to 1500W or less, based on the supplier's recommendations for long life. It is actually motor current that matters more than power. If you have a controller that allows controlling motor current and smooth ramping to avoid rapid heating and clutch slamming things will last longer. A temperature sensor in the motor causing power rollback would really be excellent here, but I don't have that yet. I use Grin PhaseRunners on my Bonanza and am moving to that on the BikeE. The torque throttle control is also nicer than the usual PWM throttle controls for smooth and precise control.

Good luck with your project.

I see dogman added some excellent advice (and fairly similar) while I was typing mine.
 
Alan B said:
Gearmotors wear out clutches and gears, and overheat easily due to the path for heat conduction out of the motor. They often come from the factory with sub-optimal lubrication type and/or quantities.

Sudden application of power and especially high motor temperature can damage them faster. A hot motor can fail in just a few minutes, the gears generally fail first. I don't know if you are monitoring motor temperature, but that is a good thing to do. That is perhaps the best indicator of danger.

It is hard to put a specific value on the power handling capacity of these motors. Finding consensus is difficult - there are many differing experiences here on ES. 1500W seems to work fairly well, perhaps a long time on a bicycle. 2000-2500W works but often fails, again on a bicycle. Putting one of these gearmotors on a heavier moped, and pushing it above 1500W is not likely to produce good motor life.

So you are already pushing it hard, and you are planning to push it harder. I can't predict when it will fail, but I would move ahead on the 3kW DD motor, it is better suited to your machine. You can look at my Borg (link in my sig) build to see something similar that I have used for many thousands of commute miles with excellent reliability.

I try to keep my full size gearmotors to 1500W or less, based on the supplier's recommendations for long life. It is actually motor current that matters more than power. If you have a controller that allows controlling motor current and smooth ramping to avoid rapid heating and clutch slamming things will last longer. A temperature sensor in the motor causing power rollback would really be excellent here, but I don't have that yet. I use Grin PhaseRunners on my Bonanza and am moving to that on the BikeE. The torque throttle control is also nicer than the usual PWM throttle controls for smooth and precise control.

Good luck with your project.

I see dogman added some excellent advice (and fairly similar) while I was typing mine.

This is all great information. It sounds like I need to get a MXUS 3000 turbo. Now my question is: Can i get that motor and a new controller and run on my 48v -- 26.1AH battery???? Will i get more speed??
Battery from LA- Ebike : his site says::
48V 26AH Panasonic 18650 PF Lithium Ion Battery Pack -- 1248WH Watts Hours -- BMS -- Panasonic 29PF Cells -- High Discharge

Thanks for helping!!
 
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